Starfleet Design Bureau

So the cargo bay was the last thing I considered cutting when coming up with the plan. I then asked myself two questions:

Question 1: What does it cost to include it?

Answer: Not much. It doesn't add enough mass to degrade mobility, and it's the cheapest option on the whole list.

Question 2: What does including it get us?

Answer: A much more versatile ship. A cargo hold can be basically anything, really. Even if it's not much use for the ship's main function, it's the sort of thing with a million and one ancillary uses.

Conclusion: It's basically a free addition that vastly broadens the ship's mission profile. So why not throw it in?
When cost is evidently the single most important metric we're being judged by, throwing in options which do not enhance the ability to do the one thing the ship needs to do seems kind of risky. The purpose of this ship is to ensure that civilians cannot literally outrun the law. Everything else is secondary, and might draw questions from the procurement board.

[X] Plan Everything But The Mule

No cargo bay is setting ourselves up for logistical problems. If you find a relatively small amount of contraband or restricted goods on a ship, but don't have a place to store it, then there's not really any great options. You could just drag the whole ship back to base, but that's a hassle and a lot of time that this ship will be spending escorting other vessels instead of doing something more useful. You could commandeer a freighter, but that's a legal can of worms. It might not be an option at all in some cases.

It's worth a little extra tonnage to spare everyone the trouble.
You don't even need to escort it. The entire purpose of this project is to build a ship that can chase down unruly merchants and smugglers trying to escape the system. The ship with contraband can spend an hour or two flying back to a station to have the contraband processed, or we can call in other assets as the Denubian design intends.

I don't think the cargo bay is terrible. It'll allow the protector to be completely superior to the Tellarite design at an increased cost, which might be compelling. But an in-system inspection ship has so many options to deal with cargo that I don't think it's a major improvement, and the last update repeatedly implies that we should try to cut out as much as possible.

What the tractor beam, the brig and the cargo hold really let us do is to stop the ship, the crew or the cargo respectively. If you can hold the ship you don't really need to hold the other two, as the Denubians have designed for. But the crew can still present a risk to you, their ship, or their cargo, so having a brig to separate the crew from the ship and the cargo will be useful.

So then is there any scenario where we want to be able to separate the cargo from the ship and the crew? The one being presented is where someone has contraband that we want to confiscate, but how often are we going to want to confiscate some small amount of contraband without destroying it and then let the crew and ship leave the system? Shouldn't we at least try to interview everyone on board a ship that's been caught smuggling?
 
[X] Plan Everything But The Mule

The break point being at 100 means we can still put everything but the shuttle bay.
Which i value the least for both the mission profile and its size.

Im not expecting anymore votes after this if there are we are checkmate for mass.
 
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[X] Plan Everything But The Mule

Skimping on the shuttles for the sake of maneuverability is fine. But for the rest, there isn't really a capacity that feels extraneous.

Without Shuttles we need Transporters.
A police cutter unable to detain people is questionable, so the Brig is valuable
The Cargo Bay is the closest to extraneous, but one of our competitors use it to store evidence, so it's not useless (edit : a lack of a dedicated cargo bay to store stuff is actually mentioned as a mark against the Denobulan design)
The Tractor Beam is really useful when it comes to impounding vessels

Going all in might be a bit much for later procurement standing, too, so skipping the Shuttles feels like a good compromise.
 
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Obligatory I think we will succeed with or without the cargo bay, so long as we don't bloat with transporters and shuttles.

When cost is evidently the single most important metric we're being judged by, throwing in options which do not enhance the ability to do the one thing the ship needs to do seems kind of risky. The purpose of this ship is to ensure that civilians cannot literally outrun the law. Everything else is secondary, and might draw questions from the procurement board.


You don't even need to escort it. The entire purpose of this project is to build a ship that can chase down unruly merchants and smugglers trying to escape the system. The ship with contraband can spend an hour or two flying back to a station to have the contraband processed, or we can call in other assets as the Denubian design intends.

I don't think the cargo bay is terrible. It'll allow the protector to be completely superior to the Tellarite design at an increased cost, which might be compelling. But an in-system inspection ship has so many options to deal with cargo that I don't think it's a major improvement, and the last update repeatedly implies that we should try to cut out as much as possible.

What the tractor beam, the brig and the cargo hold really let us do is to stop the ship, the crew or the cargo respectively. If you can hold the ship you don't really need to hold the other two, as the Denubians have designed for. But the crew can still present a risk to you, their ship, or their cargo, so having a brig to separate the crew from the ship and the cargo will be useful.

So then is there any scenario where we want to be able to separate the cargo from the ship and the crew? The one being presented is where someone has contraband that we want to confiscate, but how often are we going to want to confiscate some small amount of contraband without destroying it and then let the crew and ship leave the system? Shouldn't we at least try to interview everyone on board a ship that's been caught smuggling?

The cargo bays let us do all the low level and medium level individual cases that don't involve an entire ship. Especially on a very large ship with a lot of crew, stolen goods rather than illegal, or things that are edge or quarantine cases.

Things that get a fine but not jail time, things that are legal but need special permission, things that are suspect but not certain, anything that's gonna want a judge to sort out for an individual but not an entire ship.

These are wild guesses, based on what I know of travel in real life, and I have no doubt space is different.

Can we live without it? Yeah. But I think allowing the police ships to be able to handle small cases without calling in back up is going to make them a lot more effective in general.

Edit: things confiscated may also need to be disposed of in a certain way, with evidence and paperwork and a time to put in a legal counterargument, which would involve taking the things to a particular place or facility. So even the things being confiscated to be destroyed might need to be stored for a time.
 
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Obligatory I think we will succeed with or without the cargo bay, so long as we don't bloat with transporters and shuttles.



The cargo bays let us do all the low level and medium level individual cases that don't involve an entire ship. Especially on a very large ship with a lot of crew, stolen goods rather than illegal, or things that are edge or quarantine cases.

Things that get a fine but not jail time, things that are legal but need special permission, things that are suspect but not certain, anything that's gonna want a judge to sort out for an individual but not an entire ship.

These are wild guesses, based on what I know of travel in real life, and I have no doubt space is different.

Can we live without it? Yeah. But I think allowing the police ships to be able to handle small cases without calling in back up is going to make them a lot more effective in general.

Edit: things confiscated may also need to be disposed of in a certain way, with evidence and paperwork and a time to put in a legal counterargument, which would involve taking the things to a particular place or facility. So even the things being confiscated to be destroyed might need to be stored for a time.
I don't actually know how specifically civilian space travel works in ST, but shouldn't small-scale problems be caught during luggage check-in or at the post office or whatever? This ship isn't intended to try to catch every little thing that people try to smuggle, there should be much more robust systems elsewhere for that. It seems like we're much, much more likely to be catching merchants trying to slip things under the radar or smugglers going for a quick escape than we are finding people with drugs on a cruise liner, and for that it's not unreasonable to detain the crew and impound the ship.

I love how everyone is fixated on a cargo bay for an intrasystem ship, but who needs transporters or small craft in a system guard role?

Lol
At this point it's pretty unlikely that we'll end up with anything other than transporter, no shuttle. The main difference between the two leading plans is whether or not to include a cargo bay.
 
Giving it some thought, single Shuttlebay would be preferable to the single transporter. People can object to being materialized and that's something that should probably be respected.
No. No it should not be respected. Look, there are two possibilities:
  1. Transporters are even remotely possiblymurder-and-clone machines in-setting
    • ...and consequently even if they're not, every single Starfleet member is guilty of so many millions of reckless endangerments (and so many millions of murders if they are)- at the explicit direction of the thread who have collectively voted to put a transporter in every single thing it'd fit in thus far- that you are necessarily accusing us, the voters, as people in real life, of a truly heinous degree of moral failing.
  2. Transporters are definitely, unquestionably not murder-and-clone machines in-setting, which has been proven as fact beyond any remotely reasonable doubt, and anyone who believes otherwise is a fringe conspiracist on par with real-life flat-earthers.
    • And consequently no, actually, people can travel (or not) however they want on their own time but criminals don't get to object to the particular model of police car they get taken to jail in.
Needless to say, I reject the first possibility utterly, and in the second one your position is...pretty farcical.
 
[X] Plan Everything But The Mule

This is an in-system ship, not one that does interstellar work without backup.
More specialized vessels would be there to fill the utilities and tactical systems these police cutters lack.
 
No. No it should not be respected. Look, there are two possibilities:
  1. Transporters are even remotely possiblymurder-and-clone machines in-setting
    • ...and consequently even if they're not, every single Starfleet member is guilty of so many millions of reckless endangerments (and so many millions of murders if they are)- at the explicit direction of the thread who have collectively voted to put a transporter in every single thing it'd fit in thus far- that you are necessarily accusing us, the voters, as people in real life, of a truly heinous degree of moral failing.
  2. Transporters are definitely, unquestionably not murder-and-clone machines in-setting, which has been proven as fact beyond any remotely reasonable doubt, and anyone who believes otherwise is a fringe conspiracist on par with real-life flat-earthers.
    • And consequently no, actually, people can travel (or not) however they want on their own time but criminals don't get to object to the particular model of police car they get taken to jail in.
Needless to say, I reject the first possibility utterly, and in the second one your position is...pretty farcical.
*coughtuvixrikertmppicardkeikomilespulaskitwokirkscough*

Like cranky transporters are a known danger in this era.
 
*coughtuvixrikertmppicardkeikomilespulaskitwokirkscough*

Like cranky transporters are a known danger in this era.
Yes, which is completely irrelevant.

The normal function of a transporter must have been absolutely proved to not be murder. Whether- or even how often!- it malfunctions has absolutely no bearing on that question.

Sure, transporter accidents happen. So do motor vehicle crashes! That doesn't mean funding a bus system is tantamount to sponsoring mass murder!
 
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I mean, hell, the transporter can apparently beam you back into your own DNA, which raises all sorts of interesting questions about *changing your DNA*. (Granted, SNW establishes that an injection can change your apparent species, which is.. uh.. Well.)

:<

The thing is, I don't think at least in the ENT-TOS era people wanting shuttle backups is wrong, and I really *really* think it's pretty low to accuse posters of accusing others of murder.

Can we not?
 
I mean, hell, the transporter can apparently beam you back into your own DNA, which raises all sorts of interesting questions about *changing your DNA*. (Granted, SNW establishes that an injection can change your apparent species, which is.. uh.. Well.)

:<

The thing is, I don't think at least in the ENT-TOS era people wanting shuttle backups is wrong, and I really *really* think it's pretty low to accuse posters of accusing others of murder.

Can we not?
*throws up hands* I really really think it's pretty low to accuse other posters of advocating mass murder, and I completely fail to see how believing in the in-setting possibility of murderporters can be anything else! Like, the logic is really, really straightforward here. If it could be murder, and we voted for it, then ipso facto we all voted for maybe-a-whole-bunch-of-murders! Definitely a whole bunch of reckless endangerments! I'm not okay with that, so clearly it must have been proved not to be murder in-setting, so we can continue to act and vote accordingly, and consequently criminals don't get to object to being transporter'd into the brig! Q.E.D.

But sure, fuckit, I'm just the murder-voter here, clearly I'm the one who needs to STFU. Fine.

Oh right I do also need to vote, uh.

[X]Plan All In 120,000
- [X] 0: Shuttlebay
- [X] 1: Transporter
- [X] 2: Cargo Bay
- [X] 3: Brig
- [X] 4: Tractor Beam

[X] Plan Everything But The Mule
-[X] 0: No Shuttlebay
-[X] 1: Transporter (+10,000 Tons)
-[X] 2: Cargo Bay (+10,000 Tons)
-[X] 3: Brig (+10,000 Tons)
-[X] 4: Tractor Beam (+10,000 Tons)

Either of these is fine afaict.
 
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Barring a bizarre happenstance, this ain't gonna win. Doing it anyway.

[X] Plan VBSS
-[X] 0: Shuttlebay (+20,000 Tons)
-[X] 1: No Transporter
-[X] 2: No Cargo Bay
-[X] 3: Brig (+10,000 Tons)
-[X] 4: Tractor Beam (+10,000 Tons)

A cargo bay is completely superfluous. If they're seizing evidence, they're seizing the ship too. Shuttles allow for multiple insertions and transport over without risking transporter interference, tractor beam takes the ship if we can't unlock the controls, brig keeps everyone we want in an easy to get to spot.
 
Barring a bizarre happenstance, this ain't gonna win. Doing it anyway.

[X] Plan VBSS
-[X] 0: Shuttlebay (+20,000 Tons)
-[X] 1: No Transporter
-[X] 2: No Cargo Bay
-[X] 3: Brig (+10,000 Tons)
-[X] 4: Tractor Beam (+10,000 Tons)

A cargo bay is completely superfluous. If they're seizing evidence, they're seizing the ship too. Shuttles allow for multiple insertions and transport over without risking transporter interference, tractor beam takes the ship if we can't unlock the controls, brig keeps everyone we want in an easy to get to spot.
There is the possibility of the criminal being a passenger and the contraband/evidence/stollen property/whatever being in their luggage with no other passenger, nor the ship's crew, owners, or any other cargo having anything to do with the matter, in which case forcing the whole ship to return when you can board, inspect, arrest, confiscate, and then let the ship be about it's way seems... Needlessly rude at best.
 
The sticking point, at least for me, is not how a stop plays out, it's what do you do when in the course of a stop you figure out that you have a cargo you want to impound in whole or in part, but a crew you don't want to detain, or of whom you only want to detain some but not all? If in that situation you don't have a cargo bay, but have to keep the cargo on the seized ship, you're also stuck detaining the whole crew at least for the duration of the trip to the nearest station. And at that point the crew has some very real civil rights concerns. I'm not a big believer in "take 'em all in, let God sort 'em out," and I don't think the Federation legal system is either.
Any legitimate merchant traffic is going to have established pre-approved flight plans and onboard documentation.

These police cutter starships are not civilian police, but member nation military ships. The starships they are intercepting are not a family RV out for a Sunday drive.
 
[X] Plan Ranger
-[X] 0: No Shuttlebay
-[X] 1: Transporter (+10,000 Tons)
-[X] 2: No Cargo Bay
-[X] 3: Brig (+10,000 Tons)
-[X] 4: Tractor Beam (+10,000 Tons)
 
[X] Plan Revenue and Customs
-[X] 0: Shuttlebay (+20,000 Tons)
-[X] 1: Transporter (+10,000 Tons)
-[X] 2: No Cargo Bay
-[X] 3: Brig (+10,000 Tons)
-[X] 4: Tractor Beam (+10,000 Tons)
 
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