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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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So regarding the Eike in Lothern topic:

I am genuinely confused about the suggestions for stuff for her to do, but I feel like my concerns are pretty much the opposite to the ones i read so far.

My issue is that from my point of view 'get a book trade to our library going' or 'establish EIC-Lothern trade connections' seem like basically impossible tasks, especially if she only has 3 months.

Like, our library is in a dwarven karak and overall firmly in dwarven territory, so getting a booktrader for our library is basically asking Eike to rekindle elven-dwarven trade within 3 months.

Getting EIC-Lothern trade going is basically tasking her to break Marienburg's monopoly, again within only 3 months.

Both of those tasks seem pretty much impossible to me. So can someone please explain me what I am getting wrong here?
 
fictionfan said:
[X] Plan Orbs, Stones and Scopes, Ithilmar, arcane marks, Enchantment and Exploration
-[x] Create Orbs of Sorcery solo (requires one of each Power Stone)
-[x] Serenity: Write a book : Aethyric Vitae 1/2
-[x] Waystone: Build a Waystone: Everyone.
-[x] Attempt to gain control of one of your Arcane Marks (Unnatural shadow)
-[x] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Auditory Seviroscope) Spend 5 CF for a Magister with Auditory Magesight to help out
-[x] JOHANN: Explore one of the Wards of Laurelorn (Storms)
-[x] MAX: Receive dictation: Linguistic Drift in Lizardmen Glyphs, The Polyphenic Theory of Lizardmen Society
-[x] EIC: Gather as much Ithilmar from throughout the Old World as possible to resell to the Eonir for a one-time profit
-[x] KAU: Seek an exchange arrangement with another Library or a Karak's archives to be able to make copies of their corpus (Aquila Academy)
-[x] COIN: Gambler: Build a Waystone
-[x] Eike Study: Learn Enchantment at the Colleges 1 CF
-[x] Eike Actions: Karaz Ankor Network with Thorek, Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm, Explore the Ward of Storms with Johann
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Heads up: When you changed the Karaz Ankor network exploration action to do Arcane Mark investigation instead, you didn't change the Eike action. You might want to move her to something else.

Also, while I am not going to ping people in deference to the thread policy about not mass-pinging to get people to change their vote, I will point out to Parabola, Tasoli, and Nurgle (should you read this) that DragonParadox changed his plan name to use the word "Plan" so the autotally would actually show the plan under votes for just the plan name, so you should change your vote to the version of the plan that has "Plan" in it so that your votes do not need to be manually combined in the tally.
Gavin Prince said:
I'm not sure I'm a fan of the plans where Eike is tagging along on a
-[ ] KAU: Hire educators to teach a language or group of languages to your scribes (Old World Languages)
action.
one of which is a current frontrunner

If the plan is for Eike to learn a language, that's way better done through an Eike Study write-in. The KAU action is bureaucratic - it's about interviewing and hiring the teachers, not sitting in on lessons. I guess if the idea is for Eike to learn personnel management, it works.
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It gets her some language exposure, even if it's not focused study, and might be useful for upgrading her fangirl trait into Polyglot or skilling up her Linguistics trait. I agree that for "you need to learn this language," immersion or focused study would be better, but for a more general smattering of vocabulary, I think it's a good choice to have her sit in on some of the classes.
Boney said:
The action is setting up the teaching, the actual education is going to take significantly longer than a single month. Attending those lessons isn't going to be more action-efficient than any other method of learning a language and you're definitely not going to get three complete languages out of a single action.
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This doesn't say that Eike can't get language learning out of the action, it just means it's not an AP-efficient way of learning lots of languages simultaneously. But "Eike fits in language classes when she's around for them" seems like a reasonable idea to me.
 
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Tasoli said:
I imagine if Emperor were to write to him he would write back eventually.

I suppose it is such a shame that he has not written down some rules down that gives you ironclad way to judge wheter you should trust the Collages or not. Some Articles even. Hmm.

But fuck Magnus lets outlaw the Collages over the first excuse we find, it is not like Empire needs the collages or anything hmm..

Surely Witch Hunters are hard enough to take the collages. hmm...
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Your argument is that the articles give clear rules so that apparations aren't a problem.

My argument is that aparations look damn close to daemons and that if it comes out that 3 colleges have deliberately hidden their use in spells it looks pretty damning not just of the "zealot rabble" you so like to point out but to the electors and the emperor.
But hey, we have argued long enough. It's clear you don't care for my opinion about this and I hope it's been pretty clear I don't care about yours on this topic. So let's drop it.
 
[X] Plan Ithilmar, Enchantment and Exploration Language Edition
-[X] Create Orbs of Sorcery solo (requires one of each Power Stone)
-[X] SERENITY: Write a book : Aethyric Vitae 1/2
-[X] Waystone: Build a Waystone (Everyone)
-[X] Waystone: Other Networks Karaz Ankor: Runelord Thorek
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm (Auditory Seviroscope) Spend 5 CF for a Magister with Auditory Magesight to help out
-[X] JOHANN: Explore one of the Wards of Laurelorn (Storms)
-[X] MAX: Receive dictation: Linguistic Drift in Lizardmen Glyphs & The Polyphenic Theory of Lizardmen Society
-[X] EIC: Gather as much Ithilmar from throughout the Old World as possible to resell to the Eonir for a one-time profit
-[X] KAU: Hire educators to teach a language or group of languages to your scribes (Old World Languages)
-[X] COIN: Gambler: Build a Waystone
-[X] Eike Study: Learn Enchantment at the Colleges 1 CF
-[X] Eike Actions: Karaz Ankor Network with Thorek, Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm, Explore the Ward of Storms with Johann
 
It's still early in the vote. We could always make a variant on Orbs and Nuts without Eike on the KAU action and push for it if people are unsatisfied with the base version.
 
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[X] Plan Ithilmar, Enchantment and Exploration Vlag Edition
[X] Plan Ithilmar, Enchantment and Exploration Language Edition
[X] Plan Pondering Orbs and Nuts
[X] Plan Pondering Orbs and Nuts (no Eike on KAU)

@picklepikkl
I think mass pinging rule is about valid votes. IF a plan changes or gets broken in the tally I think it is allowed.
Tobtorp said:
look damn close
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That only counts for horse shoes and hand granades. Not for the Articles.

So no rational reason to cause problems and keeping it quiet is to keep irrational actors from making trouble.
 
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[ ] Plan Ithilmar, Enchantment and Exploration Language Edition
[X] Plan Pondering Orbs and Nuts

[X] Plan Pondering Orbs and Nuts (no Eike on KAU)
[X] Plan Ithilmar, Enchantment and Exploration Language Edition (Eike, check out this cool thing I did!)
 
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picklepikkl said:
It gets her some language exposure, even if it's not focused study, and might be useful for upgrading her fangirl trait into Polyglot or skilling up her Linguistics trait. I agree that for "you need to learn this language," immersion or focused study would be better, but for a more general smattering of vocabulary, I think it's a good choice to have her sit in on some of the classes.
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I think the assumption of Eike Action entries is that she is accompanying Mathilde as those actions take place. But Mathilde's participation in the KAU action ends when the lessons are set up. She flies away in her gyrocarriage.

If we include Eike, my default assumption is that Eike is joining us there for the set-up (which is a full half-AP action, after all) and leaves when we do. Not that she's there for the half-AP that we're there, plus the 2-3AP spent by the scribes on the lessons.
 
With no offense to LawsOfRobotics, whose plan I like, here's the exact same plan but Eike doesn't come along on the KAU action. Just in case enough people want to go for it.

[X] Plan Pondering Orbs and Nuts (no Eike on KAU)
-[X] Create Orbs of Sorcery solo
-[X] Waystone: Build a Waystone (ALL) (The Gambler)
-[X] Waystone: Other Networks (Karaz Ankor) (Thorek)
-[X] Study an artefact: Ghyran Nut with Panoramia
-[X] Attempt to gain control of one of your Arcane Marks (Unnatural Shadow)
-[X] SERENITY: Aethyric Vitae Part 1
-[X] EIC: Gather as much Ithilmar from throughout the Old World as possible to resell to the Eonir for a one-time profit
-[X] KAU: Hire educators to teach a language or group of languages to your scribes (Old World Languages)
-[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] Eike Actions: Ghyran Nut study, Karaz Ankor network
-[X] Eike Study: Infiltration and Tradecraft with the Hochlander

[X] Plan Pondering Orbs and Nuts
[] Plan Ithilmar, Enchantment and Exploration Language Edition
 
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Gavin Prince said:
I think the assumption of Eike Action entries is that she is accompanying Mathilde as those actions take place. But Mathilde's participation in the KAU action ends when the lessons are set up. She flies away in her gyrocarriage.

If we include Eike, my default assumption is that Eike is joining us there for the set-up (which is a full half-AP action, after all) and leaves when we do. Not that she's there for the half-AP that we're there, plus the 2-3AP spent by the scribes on the lessons.
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On the other hand, Eike being assigned to the EIC charcoal trade action had her setting it up and Mathilde minimally involved.
 
Tobtorp said:
Your naive if you think it doesn't matter how something looks in politics.
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WTF dude. Take your strawman put it somewhere else. I have never argued for disclosure. I think it is right and proper for collages to keep it secret and it will stay that way.

More to point you are even more naive if you think something looking bad is a reason to stop doing it. I mean remember the former Empress? WTF do you think would happen to Collages if that were to come out? Because that is actually by far more dangerious secret. Hasn't stopped the Collages. Will not in the future.
 
I'm personally not to bothered by Eike joining us with setting up the kau thing. Gives her some exposure to the kau as an entity (we really haven't done much with her there) and maybe meeting some employees of it (2 or 8 legs, both are fun)
 
On Teclis and the Colleges; the Articles do still apparently officially say:

The Colleges are free to study, document, practice, and experiment with the arcane forces of magic that are present in this world, provided they adhere to the restrictions laid down by Teclis of Ulthuan, keep the good of Sigmar's Holy Empire in their hearts and minds, and obey the Articles of this document.​

Teclis apparently still gets to set the rules on what's acceptable and not for Magisters to study.

naths said:
So regarding the Eike in Lothern topic:

I am genuinely confused about the suggestions for stuff for her to do, but I feel like my concerns are pretty much the opposite to the ones i read so far.

My issue is that from my point of view 'get a book trade to our library going' or 'establish EIC-Lothern trade connections' seem like basically impossible tasks, especially if she only has 3 months.

Like, our library is in a dwarven karak and overall firmly in dwarven territory, so getting a booktrader for our library is basically asking Eike to rekindle elven-dwarven trade within 3 months.

Getting EIC-Lothern trade going is basically tasking her to break Marienburg's monopoly, again within only 3 months.

Both of those tasks seem pretty much impossible to me. So can someone please explain me what I am getting wrong here?
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Lothern is a global entrepôt, probably the most diverse and cosmopolitan city in the world, very likely with a majority human population. It also apparently has a minority dwarven population comprised mostly of formerly imperial dwarves who chose to settle there. It's also noted that the dwarf made goods are in demand in Lothern, imported by its human merchants as the dwaves refuse to deal directly with the elves. Given that dwaves live in the city the elves are clearly willing to deal with them.

In terms of time, elven merchants can't be too slow to deal. Success in trade is very much dependent on quick decision making. You can't hang around in port too long as time is money, and the elves of Lothern are famously good merchants.

Even if for some reason the elven booksellers of Lothern refuse our custom, I see no reason for the humans and dwarven merchants there to do the same. We can trade with both the non-elven permanent residents of Lothern as well as the captains of visiting trade ships, and look to employ an agent to continue to do the later.

Lastly, Marienberg doesn't have a monopoly on trade with Ulthuan. It has a monopoly on elven merchants landing goods sourced from Lustria and Naggaroth in the Old World. That's it. Non elven merchants from anywhere in the Old World should be able to buy whatever they want in Lothern. Elven merchants can sell anything that's from anywhere except the New World in any port in the Old World, which is why there's an elven merchant quarter in Marienberg, not that this is relevant to what happens in Lothern.
 
Mopman43 said:
On the other hand, Eike being assigned to the EIC charcoal trade action had her setting it up and Mathilde minimally involved.
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The equivalent here would be Mathilde handing over the interviews and timetabling to Eike. Which is certainly a thing we could do, and she might well learn something from it. I don't know if that's what people are voting for, though. Anyone who gets that and voted hoping for her to skip the office-work in favour of attending the language lessons is then going to be disappointed.
 
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Can we write the plans at the same rows following the update perhaps? Comparing two plans to see what is different is almost impossible if one has Serenity as the first row while other has it in the middle and third has last. Especially if plans are similar or different enough to not have same action at all.

Please!
 
Tasoli said:
WTF dude. Take your strawman put it somewhere else. I have never argued for disclosure. I think it is right and proper for collages to keep it secret and it will stay that way.

More to point you are even more naive if you think something looking bad is a reason to stop doing it. I mean remember the former Empress? WTF do you think would happen to Collages if that were to come out? Because that is actually by far more dangerious secret. Hasn't stopped the Collages. Will not in the future.
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And if my point were that we should disclose it I would have argued for that... The only thing I said is that
Tobtorp said:
The problem is that if the apparitions use comes out and a academic goes "but it isn't a daemon because a spell of the orders says so." The people in power will rightfully point out that the orders of magic have hidden that they use apparitions at all and are therefore no longer trustworthy as a source of their own innocence.
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And you've been arguing that it wouldn't because the articles are clear about it (their not clear about aparations) or the emperor trusts the colleges (that trust wouldn't last if it comes out we've hidden something that possible could break article 7). And now you've told me that "they look close enough to daemons" doesn't count?

It will count if the empire decides it counts.
 
Tobtorp said:
And you've been arguing that it wouldn't because the articles are clear about it (their not clear about aparations) or the emperor trusts the colleges (that trust wouldn't last if it comes out we've hidden something that possible could break article 7). And now you've told me that "they look close enough to daemons" doesn't count?

It will count if the empire decides it counts.
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They are clear about Apparitions. They're OK if Teclis says they're OK, and not OK if he says they're not.

Presumably as multiple Colleges use Apparitions and he probably taught them to, he said they were OK.
 
Tobtorp said:
(their not clear about aparations)
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They are clear about apparations not being a vialotion. They are kept quiet for political reasons. Not legal ones. Your insistance comes from this right here. You can pretend all you like it is about how it looks but again and again I see that you don't believe it is Article ok! so your arguments circle back that collages are fucked if it comes out.

Emperor won't care. Sigmarites will though so it is kept secret but we can go to Emperor right now and explain how our apparation binding works and I assure you he won't care as long as he can pretend he didn't know about it.

Tobtorp said:
It will count if the empire decides it counts.
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There is no arguing with Dieter IV. IT is also pointless because if Empire is looking for excuses there are far better ones out there.
 
Alratan said:
They are clear about Apparitions. They're OK if Teclis says they're OK, and not OK if he says they're not.

Presumably as multiple Colleges use Apparitions and he probably taught them to, he said they were OK.
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That be great if that was in writing somewhere but boney has not mentioned such an important piece of literature once when we were investigating aparations.
It's nice to speculate but inventing new rules that we in universe have never heard of is not something we can do.
rocketroland999 said:
Which of these is apparition binding again? It's not the forbidden lore of chaos, it's not necromancy, and it doesn't use Dhar so it's not dark magic
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Fun fact, it's not the forbidden lore of chaos. It's the forbidden lore of Daemonic powers. Now when your argument is that aparations look like Daemonic entities, come from the same place as Daemonic entities and behave like Daemonic entities then that parts gets a lot more important, right?
Tasoli said:
They are clear about apparations not a vialotion
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Where does it say that aparations aren't daemons? This is the crux of the issue and why the orders that use them don't advertise the fact.
Because you keep telling me their legal and the literal only evidence you have brought up is a spell of the colleges that a non wizard doesn't understand or can replicate.
 
Folks, I think this argument has gotten circular. There isn't a push to disclose the origin of Knightbringer, and even if a plan to codify it wins, it will be codified for the Grey College, which is generally very good at keeping unsavory-looking things out of sight. Can we all take a step back and shelve this argument until and unless it becomes an issue in-quest?
 
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