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NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)

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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Buying a thrall in Norse lands and offering to free them would be possible for this reason. Buying one in England? Not so much. Different culture entirely.

But more importantly, we have to feed a thrall same as hiring a freeman and they may well leave when they're freed while the freeman more likely stays. The only advantage to buying a thrall rather than hiring someone is that it's cheaper. And given how much money we have, the amount it's cheaper is not a real concern for us.
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I completely agree with you, if we need labor we can just hire a farmhand.

Weren't we talking abaout hiring somebody in our crew? And a few pages back we talked abaout hiring one of Halfdan youngest children.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
But more importantly, we have to feed a thrall same as hiring a freeman and they may well leave when they're freed while the freeman more likely stays. The only advantage to buying a thrall rather than hiring someone is that it's cheaper. And given how much money we have, the amount it's cheaper is not a real concern for us.
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You can only really hire people from the same or closely-related cultures, meaning you can't use it to steal technology.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Buying a thrall in Norse lands and offering to free them would be possible for this reason. Buying one in England? Not so much. Different culture entirely.

But more importantly, we have to feed a thrall same as hiring a freeman and they may well leave when they're freed while the freeman more likely stays. The only advantage to buying a thrall rather than hiring someone is that it's cheaper. And given how much money we have, the amount it's cheaper is not a real concern for us.
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Yeah, the part you quoted missed a not, its fixed now.
Wanted to be "and not just be a thrall for the rest of your life"
Again, there is no reason to just do it, for now, that fits Halla's character. Not even for being a Dreng, because thralldom is an accepted part of the culture.

And feeding your thrall is not a cost. No matter how many times your bring it up.
 
Mystic Pentagram said:
I completely agree with you, if we need labor we can just hire a farmhand.

Weren't we talking abaout hiring somebody in our crew? And a few pages back we talked abaout hiring one of Halfdan youngest children.
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Recruiting people from the crew is definitely on the itinerary. Probably more in the way of huscarls than farmhands, but getting some of the latter certainly isn't crazy talk.

TheCount said:
Yeah, the part you quoted missed a not, its fixed now.
Wanted to be "and not just be a thrall for the rest of your life"
Again, there is no reason to just do it, for now, that fits Halla's character. Not even for being a Dreng, because thralldom is an accepted part of the culture.
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I am suggesting that buying a thrall is worse and less efficient than hiring someone. Not a moral objection to the process, though actually Hallr seems to not be the biggest fan.

TheCount said:
And feeding your thrall is not a cost. No matter how many times your bring it up.
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My point is that a thrall and the farmhand cost the same amount to feed and we get less use out of the thrall as they are weaker. The farmhand costs more money...but we have enough money that the difference in monetary costs is meaningless to us in practice. Therefore, since we are rich, hiring farmhands is better for us than buying thralls.

There are situations where that is likely not true, but we are not in them.
 
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BTW did we get told how much better our ability to cultivate odr is? Because looking at all our othstirr gains this trip (and it isn't even finished) we would get 27 a turn normally. Which is absurd.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I am suggesting that buying a thrall is worse and less efficient than hiring someone. Not a moral objection to the process, though actually Hallr seems to not be the biggest fan.
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hm... went through the searchbar but couldn't find where Hallr spoke about disliking it... was it in one of the main thread marks?
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
My point is that a thrall and the farmhand cost the same amount to feed and we get less use out of the thrall as they are weaker. The farmhand costs more money...but we have enough money that the difference in monetary costs is meaningless to us in practice. Therefore, since we are rich, hiring farmhands is better for us than buying thralls.

There are situations where that is likely not true, but we are not in them.
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For skilled labor that the Norse know, yes, that's true.
For stuff other cultures know but the Norse don't? Not so much.

And, we will slowly be in that situation, even if we do dodge the war, somehow, by simply expanding our farm/holding/clan territory, by the stuff i found, outside of the main thread marks.
Imperial Fister said:
You get a thrall because you need/want extra hands around the farm to do dumb labor, not because you want skilled workers. If you want skilled workers, then you hire farmhands or learn it yourself.

And there are differing levels of thralldom too. A loyal thrall that was born into the role like Randi is going to have way more freedoms then a freshly shackled thrall like Gabriel. The orthstirr Randi has is meager even by women's standards, as being the thrall of somebody who does cool stuff is the only way she can gain it, but it's enough for her to get by. A shackled thrall doesn't even get that, thanks to the shackles.

Hamr 1 is average human to top level athlete. Hamr 2 is peak human and beyond. You don't need more than Hamr 1 to watch the hearthfire or plant seeds in the ground. You guys haven't encountered any non-cultivators yet, which should help to put things into perspective.
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Imperial Fister said:
About as common as real life Norse. So eh? I don't think there's many records concerning the lives of thralls.

It is prestigious to have thralls. You get a thrall because you have labor that needs doing that you either can't do by yourself or won't do (cleaning toilets, for example). Bigger farms have more stuff that needs doing so more thralls are bought which increases the prosperity of the farm which means more work and so on and so forth.
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Imperial Fister said:
Steinarr only needed the one thrall up until Eric went away. He was fully intending to hire a Farmhand when he got back only for Gabriel to fall into his lap.

The Norse also thought that Thralls were just straight up weaker than Karls and Jarls but they kept them around all the same.
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Imperial Fister said:
Interestingly enough, this isn't entirely true.

While I've abstracted it a bit for this quest, a farmhand would not be expected to do things like pile manure or things like that. He gets paid a wage and even that can be an insult depending on the job that is done.

A farmhand has higher standing than a shepherd (who is someone who receives only room and board, not wages like a farmhand). The shepherd would pile the manure, the farmhand wouldn't. And, if there were thralls, the thralls would (generally) be doing the less desirable tasks.

It was straight up illegal to assign farmhands demeaning jobs like watching the sheep.

Now, obviously this is a bit different for the Quest (because I forgot, lmao) but yeah.
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No idea if any of these changed by then though.
 
TheCount said:
hm... went through the searchbar but couldn't find where Hallr spoke about disliking it... was it in one of the main thread marks?
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So, he's not a radical abolitionist or anything, but he does have a bit of a thing about free will:

Imperial Fister said:
'Because it is a despicable thing to convince a man that he wants to be enthralled.'

A frown creases your face. "If a man were to be enthralled, then he was always meant to be enthralled."

Blackhand scoffs. 'If that were true, then the Enemy would never lose.'
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The details of which sort of undercut the entire Norse justification for slavery. He's not super against it, but he doesn't seem enthusiastic about it either.

TheCount said:
For skilled labor that the Norse know, yes, that's true.
For stuff other cultures know but the Norse don't? Not so much.

And, we will slowly be in that situation, even if we do dodge the war, somehow, by simply expanding our farm/holding/clan territory, by the stuff i found, outside of the main thread marks.
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I'm not convinced that winds up being true if money isn't your priority (it's true if you're just trying to maximize your money gain per money invested), which it isn't for us exactly. We might nevertheless buy some thralls eventually, but probably not too many of them.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
So, he's not a radical abolitionist or anything, but he does have a bit of a thing about free will:

The details of which sort of undercut the entire Norse justification for slavery. He's not super against it, but he doesn't seem enthusiastic about it either.

I'm not convinced that winds up being true if money isn't your priority (it's true if you're just trying to maximize your money gain per money invested), which it isn't for us exactly. We might nevertheless buy some thralls eventually, but probably not too many of them.
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For the part you quoted, that was for speech tricks to convince others.
Imperial Fister said:
"Cool-Off," you say as you work the word around your mouth. Finding it satisfactory, you commit it to memory as you ask the next question on your mind. "Are there any tricks to help me convince people of things?"

'Yes, but I won't teach you them. Not all of them.' It's clear by the way he speaks what he thinks of such tricks.

"Why not?" However, you don't know the reason.

'Because it is a despicable thing to convince a man that he wants to be enthralled.'

A frown creases your face. "If a man were to be enthralled, then he was always meant to be enthralled."

Blackhand scoffs. 'If that were true, then the Enemy would never lose.'

The frown deepens. You still don't get it.

He sighs and switches tactics. 'You love Abjorn, right? With all your heart?'

You're on your feet in an instant, your confusion forgotten in the face of raw fury. "What kind of question is that?! Of course I do! I'm carrying three of his children!"

'Even if your heart was wrong?'

"...What are you getting at? What's the point of this?"

'I have met and killed many men that thought themselves as seducers of women. I have seen the effects a silver-coated tongue can have on even the most ironclad marriages. Do not ever think you could never be tempted, for people like that inevitably break.'

Fear grips your heart and you breathe heavily. The snow provides a cushioned seat as you sit back down. "How... How I can stop that from happening?"

'Discern the goals of all those you meet. That is step one to convince someone of anything.'

You nod, swallowing your fear. "I... I'll do that."
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which is not about the whole thrall thing, but using others like thralls. the whole manipulation trick like cool off against hot emotion manipulation of jarls or the intimidation stuff with cold emotions scarring people into obedience.
Please, do NOT mix the two, because if you puppet karls by effective brainwashing, that means there is no qualms against just straight up slavery. except, why use slaves when you can string free Norseman along your fingers with honeyed words.

I am truly grateful that danger is not a guaranteed loss for us by now. but it was not about thralls, but speech tricks to convince others.


As for the second.... Horra's priority wasn't money either, though i am sure he didn't mind the extra money to spend of the revenge.

Edit: put that whole conversation into the quote
 
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TheCount said:
For the part you quoted, that was for speech tricks to convince others.

which is not about the whole thrall thing, but using others like thralls. the whole manipulation trick like cool off against hot emotion manipulation of jarls or the intimidation stuff with cold emotions scarring people into obedience.
Please, do NOT mix the two, because if you puppet karls by effective brainwashing, that means there is no qualms against just straight up slavery. except, why use slaves when you can string free Norseman along your fingers with honeyed words.

I am truly grateful that danger is not a guaranteed loss for us by now. but it was not about thralls, but speech tricks to convince others.
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Right. But his logic is that nobody's slavery is inevitable and fated. Like, he literally contradicts Halla's statement that men who are thralls were always destined to be. His chain of logic there directly contradicts the fundamental cultural justification the Norse use to enslave people. He's not a hardcore abolitionist, as I said, but not buying that enthralling people is justified is a step on that road.

To be clear, we could easily have thralls, and I don't think Blackhand would raise a stink or anything, but I also think that removals of free will in general are something he's very leery of and not enthusiastic about.

TheCount said:
As for the second.... Horra's priority wasn't money either, though i am sure he didn't mind the extra money to spend of the revenge.
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Horra needed a lot of money to achieve his goals. We need a lot of things but maximizing our money gains at the expense of other gains (which is what you get with thralls rather than farmhands) is not really one of them. We might eventually get a thrall or two to do the really shitty jobs for morale reasons for the rest of our people if they complain or something, but getting a bunch isn't gonna be the most efficient choice for us, I don't think.

Shard said:
I don't care for interfacing with thralls at all, honestly.
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For the record this is also my preference, I'm just not full on 'never under any circumstances' about it.
 
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Using slave labor for anything where mistakes could be critical and damaging is generally a bad call. Too many opportunities for sabotage. A mason, like an architect, is high on the list of things you don't want to rely on a slave for.
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You people wildly overestimate how eager someone would be to risk death by doing their job in any way the slave driver might consider wrong. Slaves have been used for all sort of complex tasks throughout history, masonry obviously being one of them - slaves recently captured from the Great Jewish Revolt built the Colosseum, and it's still standing today. Slaves were trusted to be physicians in the Roman Empire. Hell, slaves were very often used as soldiers, with the iconic example being the Mamluks.
 
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Pempelune said:
You people wildly overestimate how eager someone would be to risk death by doing their job in any way the slave driver might consider wrong. Slaves have been used for all sort of complex tasks throughout history, masonry obviously being one of them - slaves recently captured from the Great Jewish Revolt built the Colosseum, and it's still standing today.
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Sure, but they didn't have a slave do the design work and they had people who knew masonry there to look their work over. Having a slave do something where you have no expertise and the possibility for this sort of sabotage cannot be detected is the issue.

Pempelune said:
Slaves were trusted to be physicians in the Roman Empire. Hell, slaves were very often used as soldiers, with the iconic example being the Mamluks.
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The Mamluks being called slaves is...not exactly correct. They were bought as slaves and trained while still slaves in an isolated environment so as to have no outside loyalties, and then freed before they actually began their service. At least, as a rule. So they had no ties or marketable skills other than violence, their only social group worked for their purchaser, and they had a guaranteed high status job on offer...but they were no longer actually forced to be there. I'm sure a few even left. A very few.

Slave doctors I know less of, but being a slave in Rome with a prestigious position is one of those things where the legal title and the reality were often quite different. Not exactly an equivalent situation.
 
Awesome update Fister!

Farbjorn is a bro.

Hmmm, we wanted to buy a bit more food, and also Forged Iron at some point. At least we've gotten enough for famine-averting as it stands.

@ImperialFister, I'm guessing those aren't on offer at competitive prices?

@DeadmanwalkingXI, how do you feel about stopping off in Denmark or somewhere to buy trade goods to take home/to Jurgdby? Always nice to have a full hold.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Sure, but they didn't have a slave do the design work and they had people who knew masonry there to look their work over. Having a slave do something where you have no expertise and the possibility for this sort of sabotage cannot be detected is the issue.
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From a similar and related viewpoint of 'do this or I will hurt you', though… a lot of shady organisations have blackmailed and threatened people into doing things that they, the threatening people, would not know the results of until it actually went through, for good or likely ill. Forcing someone to do things you don't understand works; not always, not as often as with the things you do understand, but it does work.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Using slave labor for anything where mistakes could be critical and damaging is generally a bad call. Too many opportunities for sabotage. A mason, like an architect, is high on the list of things you don't want to rely on a slave for.
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This is mostly true for 2023 AD Anglosphere, where you post, but mostly false for Quest Year.
You live in a culture that will reflexively back the slave in any sort of sabotage or conflict.
Imagine a culture without that, where slave labor is treated like other sorts of labor, and what you're saying would "translate" to Vikings as claiming you should avoid using hired labor because there's too many opportunities for sabotage, anything important has to be done personally.
 
Exmorri said:
This is mostly true for 2023 AD Anglosphere, where you post, but mostly false for Quest Year.
You live in a culture that will reflexively back the slave in any sort of sabotage or conflict.
Imagine a culture without that, where slave labor is treated like other sorts of labor, and what you're saying would "translate" to Vikings as claiming you should avoid using hired labor because there's too many opportunities for sabotage, anything important has to be done personally.
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The Norse 100% did not trust newly captured thralls, which is the category I was talking about there. They might escape, sabotage, or do all kinds of similar things. You can tell by how they treated them.
 
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I'm not inherently against it, but I'd need to check how long we've been gone, ad the likelihood of getting lost.
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It's en-route at least, so we can basically hug the coast as we come back. Timewise I think we're coming up in two weeks so far?Just guesstimating.

Oooh, *actually*!

@ImperialFister, could we travel up the west coast of the British Isles, and visit the Orkneys/Shetlands? They were settled by Norse people intermixing with the Celto-Pict locals at this point and would be cool to see.

Also my family on one side traces back to Barra, so visiting the quest's equivalent of my piratical* Celto-Norse ancestors would be fun.


*(A bunch of other clans had to form an alliance to defeat them at one point, it was a whole thing.)
 
Solar Saiyan said:
I didnt understand the part about the Bleeding stone kenning, and why Halla was left baffled and Blackhand was approving of Farbjorn?
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Halla was baffled as basically anyone when you ask them how they got a kenning the will tell you the story. However, Farbjorn wants us to make up our own story for how he got the kenning. I don't understand Blackhands personality well enough to get him, but its apparently something that Ironjaw could easily end up saying so he probbably is just being nostalgic about one of his old mates
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I'm not inherently against it, but I'd need to check how long we've been gone, and the likelihood of getting lost.
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Skippy said:
It's en-route at least, so we can basically hug the coast as we come back. Timewise I think we're coming up in two weeks so far?Just guesstimating.
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yeah, that sounds about right.
2 day to get the whetstones, 10 to reach england, then however it took to get to Winchester from where we asked for directions...
it will take around 8 to 10 days to get back to the Halding Valley

Around 20 to 26, tops?
 
TheCount said:
yeah, that sounds about right.
2 day to get the whetstones, 10 to reach england, then however it took to get to Winchester from where we asked for directions...
it will take around 8 to 10 days to get back to the Halding Valley

Around 20 to 26, tops?
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Yeah. I think we're currently at about the two week mark with 7-10 days to get home if we go directly, and would like to not take more than about two more weeks to get home (for a total of a month long trip or so)...that probably leaves time for a side trip to Denmark, but we'll need to see some specific numbers to be sure.
 
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