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NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)

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seekingflame said:
It seems that IF had upped the available supply of Odr cultivator by a several order of magnitude, we really need to have a discussion with one or the other about their experience, Farbjorn might even be a higher realm.
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Not really? We always knew other Heirs of Blackhand would have Odr and I think Farbjorn is literally the first person other than Steelfathers and Heirs we've met with it. And he's one guy.

seekingflame said:
Also, I really like the idea of Abjorn learning that his distant brother who he only known by the shadow he cast on him is actually a good brother, He might even be a contact about disclosure to help Abjorn out, and he might have a few people of his own he wanted to get in on the fun too.
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This does sound cool, though disclosure remains...problematic.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
We can have our people actively seek out and engage other people. It's not perfect, but if we don't try it certainly won't happen.
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I think that sending Halla and Abjorn to kill Thanes until our relative shows up is kind of a waste, honestly?

Honestly this wording seems to me like it's motivated by wanting Halla not to get in a fight with the enemy knights and Sir Serge in particular, and whilst I'd prefer not to as well...

...ultimately I think the correct mindset for a warrior is that it's better us than our men who are not equipped to handle it. We should be courageous here. If that means having to protect our men from an incoming chivalric wrecking ball then so be it.
 
Skippy said:
I think that sending Halla and Abjorn to kill Thanes until our relative shows up is kind of a waste, honestly?

Honestly this wording seems to me like it's motivated by wanting Halla not to get in a fight with the enemy knights and Sir Serge in particular, and whilst I'd prefer not to as well...

...ultimately I think the correct mindset for a warrior is that it's better us than our men who are not equipped to handle it. We should be courageous here. If that means having to protect our men from an incoming chivalric wrecking ball then so be it.
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So. The Thanes are no joke...we'll likely lose a lot more men to them than the Knight if we leave them to 'just fight it out'. If our goal is to minimize casualties, we 100% want to be out there and dealing with them. We are assigning people to prevent the Chivalric wrecking ball...but also, he's gonna go for the concentration of high threats very explicitly, which means he's not focusing on our men as a whole.

The goal here is to actually effect the rest of the battle (which is pretty even meaning we'd expect fairly heavy casualties without our involvement), not have everyone powerful just dealing with the Knights. Which would likely be overkill and a bad force allocation.

Like, let's not get tunnel vision on the Knights and ignore the 40 other cultivators...a Knight is scary, sure, but they're not gonna kill as many people as 40 other cultivators will.
 
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
So. The Thanes are no joke...we'll likely lose a lot more men to them than the Knight if we leave them to 'just fight it out'. If our goal is to minimize casualties, we 100% want to be out there and dealing with them. We are assigning people to prevent the Chivalric wrecking ball...but also, he's gonna go for the concentration of high threats very explicitly, which means he's not focusing on our men as a whole.

The goal here is to actually effect the rest of the battle (which is pretty even meaning we'd expect fairly heavy casualties without our involvement), not have everyone powerful just dealing with the Knights. Which would likely be overkill and a bad force allocation.
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To be clear, I'm not saying we should monofocus on the Knights, and my plan does not say that. I think we should focus on the enemy heavy hitters, which might include the knights, our kinsman, or even the thanes if their javelins prove to be really effective. Broadly, I think we should be flexible and respond to the situation as it unfolds.

Specifying that we will focus on the Thanes and Norsemen until our kinsman shows up only ties our hands, and prevents responding to continencies as they arise.

(To the limited extent that any directive we give for who will be fighting what actually matters once the festivities begin and events take on their own momentum.)
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Not really? We always knew other Heirs of Blackhand would have Odr and I think Farbjorn is literally the first person other than Steelfathers and Heirs we've met with it. And he's one guy.
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True, I meant the rate Halla encounter them, three of then on this one little adventure.

But to be fair it's one of the few times she went out to the wider world and met Norse since she gained the abiltiy to sense Odr. most the people in the home valley are already familiar and beside an Odr cultivator will go out and adventure, and there is rather little adventure to be had back home.

DeadmanwalkingXI said:
This does sound cool, though disclosure remains...problematic.
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Well, unless the man had already found a way to do it, fair chances he will want to be able to teach his children about it too. And sharing the rite with your brother and sister in law is about the best guarantee he can have to a steady ally in this. Which is in short supply in the world of Odr cultivator in this moment.
 
Skippy said:
To be clear, I'm not saying we should monofocus on the Knights, and my plan does not say that. I think we should focus on the enemy heavy hitters, which might include the knights, our kinsman, or even the thanes if their javelins prove to be really effective. Broadly, I think we should be flexible and respond to the situation as it unfolds.

Specifying that we will focus on the Thanes and Norsemen until our kinsman shows up only ties our hands, and prevents responding to continencies as they arise.

(To the limited extent that any directive we give for who will be fighting what actually matters once the festivities begin and events take on their own momentum.)
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It's the monofocus on heavy hitters that's wrong, though. We have a lot more heavy hitters than the enemy does (they have 5, we have 11), the ability to actually use some of our elites to attack their normal troops is a huge advantage we shouldn't squander.

I think specifying we have at least one heavy hitter attack the normal troops (which is the Thanes and Norsemen) is in fact correct. It wouldn't have to be Halla doing it, but someone should be and she's a good candidate.
 
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Also we don't want the thanes to provide ranged support for the knights since with their armor they can for the most part can just rain javelins in their area.
 
DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I think specifying we have at least one heavy hitter attack the normal troops (which is the Thanes and Norsemen) is in fact correct. It wouldn't have to be Halla doing it, but someone should be and she's a good candidate.
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man, it's actually really impressive that this Noble's normal troops are all cultivators. I bet he has really good loot to pay them all.
 
[X] Plan The Element of Surprise Mk. 2.5: Different People For Different Jobs
wrecksalot said:
man, it's actually really impressive that this Noble's normal troops are all cultivators. I bet he has really good loot to pay them all.
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From what Imperial's said, cultivator troops is actually the norm. That is, Thanes are the standard infantry that is typically fielded by Nobles, with mortals only being used when more bodies are really needed or similar desparate circumstances iirc.
 
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wrecksalot said:
man, it's actually really impressive that this Noble's normal troops are all cultivators. I bet he has really good loot to pay them all.
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It's more that, in Anglo-Saxon England, there is just a really large amount of Thanes (in real life, there were well over 2,000 landed Thanes doing Thane things in this time period). Thanes are the warrior class in Anglo-Saxon society, after all, and only in times where bodies are needed to be bodies are mortals (the underclasses) deployed
Constenanto said:
From what Imperial's said, cultivator troops is actually the norm. That is, Thanes are the standard infantry that is typically fielded by Nobles, with mortals only being used when more bodies are really needed or similar desparate circumstances iirc.
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Nobles (that is, Carolingian Cultivators) don't typically field Thanes. Thanes and Eorls (which are, of course, higher-ranking Thanes) field Thanes. Nobles typically field mortal Men-at-Arms and Knights, with mortal levymen filling in the gaps. It's just that, in Anglo-Saxon England, there is a glut of cultivators available so Nobles make use of them.
 
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
It's the monofocus on heavy hitters that's wrong, though. We have a lot more heavy hitters than the enemy does (they have 5, we have 11), the ability to actually use some of our elites to attack their normal troops is a huge advantage we shouldn't squander.

I think specifying we have at least one heavy hitter attack the normal troops (which is the Thanes and Norsemen) is in fact correct. It wouldn't have to be Halla doing it, but someone should be and she's a good candidate.
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We've got plenty of hitters to handle the regular troops. Halla and Abjorn can handle the regular troops if the situation calls for it, the whole point is to to keep us flexible. We're the leader, declaring we're going to fight the weakest enemies is quite literally shameful cowardice! Frankly this sort of thing really gets my goat.

...I'm sorry, I realise that came out a bit heated. I'm tired; I should probably head to bed soon.
 
[X] Plan The Element of Surprise Mk. II: This Time Even More Surprising

Honestly, previously voted for Deadman's plan but I'd like to keep the flexability of Skippy's plan, in terms of our engagement. We'll probably end up fighting the Thanes anyway, but specifically going for a kinsman and other Norse right off the bat seems like asking for us to get bogged down. We're supposed to be 'leading'. I get we're speced as a fighter but we have a responsibility for out men.

Also maybe we should prep some meat keeping sticks for when someone becomes super injured but not fully killed.
 
Skippy said:
We've got plenty of hitters to handle the regular troops.
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Not specified? Their regular troops are as good as our regular troops. If our powerful people are backing up Halla, Abjorn, Stigulf, and Farbjorn going for the heavy hitters they aren't dealing with them. If our powerful people aren't backing those four in your plan, then we don't have enough people focused on the 8th Decade Knight.

Skippy said:
Halla and Abjorn can handle the regular troops if the situation calls for it, the whole point is to to keep us flexible. We're the leader for chrissakes, declaring we're going to fight the weakest enemies is quite literally shameful cowardice.
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I mean, we also explicitly go for the head of the enemy Norse as soon as we get the opportunity? That doesn't seem like cowardice.

And, I mean, there are literally 5 people on their side who are stronger than their strongest Thanes (one of whom we're planning to fight). Upper Middle enemies are no joke and focusing on them seems reasonable to me.

weeblypanda said:
Honestly, previously voted for Deadman's plan but I'd like to keep the flexability of Skippy's plan, in terms of our engagement. We'll probably end up fighting the Thanes anyway, but specifically going for a kinsman and other Norse right off the bat seems like asking for us to get bogged down. We're supposed to be 'leading'. I get we're speced as a fighter but we have a responsibility for out men.

Also maybe we should prep some meat keeping sticks for when someone becomes super injured but not fully killed.
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I feel like 'leading' is exactly what my plan is focused on. It's specifically leading our actual soldiers against the main foes they will be fighting and hopefully reducing casualties thereby.
 
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
Not specified? Their regular troops are as good as our regular troops. If our powerful people are backing up Halla, Abjorn, Stigulf, and Farbjorn going for the leaders they aren't dealing with them. If our powerful people aren't backing those four in your plan, then we don't have enough people focused on the 8th Decade Knight.
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Everyone is fighting everyone. It's a melee. It's chaotic. Our stronger warriors will be right in the thick of it, along with us. That logically means fighting the Thanes, who are the vast majority of the opposing force.

All I've specified is for us, Abjorn, Stigulf and Farbjorn to lead our men, keep an eye out for stronger enemies or situations as they arise, and respond to them, because realistically that's all we can specify in a situation like this. Sending Halla and Abjorn to deal go and kill Thanes specifically misapprehends the nature of a fluid combat, and (if IF does not ignore it) ties our hands in responding to situations as they arise.

We're the leader here, not an individual combatant.
 
Skippy said:
Everyone is fighting everyone. It's a melee. It's chaotic. Our stronger warriors will be right in the thick of it, along with us. That logically means fighting the Thanes, who are the vast majority of the opposing force.

All I've specified is for us, Abjorn, Stigulf and Farbjorn to lead our men, keep an eye out for stronger enemies or situations as they arise, and respond to them, because realistically that's all we can specify in a situation like this. Sending Halla and Abjorn to deal go and kill Thanes specifically misapprehends the nature of a fluid combat, and (if IF does not ignore it) ties our hands in responding to situations as they arise.

We're the leader here, not an individual combatant.
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I feel like making plans is for saying what you want to do if you can. Obviously, we adapt on the fly in the actual combat and, if a Knight charges us we deal with it, but if stating what we'd prefer to do is impossible, I feel like there's no point in planning at all.

And it is very much my intent that we lead our troops, I'll clarify the wording on that.

EDIT: And edited to specify we're leading our troops and with a note to adapt to the situation as necessary (which I feel is assumed, but if you're concerned adding it is reasonable).
 
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I feel like making plans is for saying what you want to do if you can. Obviously, we adapt on the fly in the actual combat and, if a Knight charges us we deal with it, but if stating what we'd prefer to do is impossible, I feel like there's no point in planning at all.
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I mean, I agree that plans can say what we want to do if we can, which is why I don't want us stuck in amongst Thanes and mercenaries who we outnumber already, and instead want Halla able to respond to what the enemy do. If that means dealing with a Knight because Stigulf and Farbjorn are occupied, we should do that, if it means duelling our kinsman, we should to that, and if it means seeing an opening and taking six guys to go exploit it, we should do that. That's what a good small unit leader does.

Sorry for getting heated before, but that's how I look at it, anyway. It's not the end of the world either way.
 
Looking on the bright side the squire we fought before didn't have a puncture equivalent and and his base stats will be much lower than ours so we can just HV or CM him and his stupid horse and bird

Actually we should be able to ignore anyone with a body stat more than 2 lower than us without a frenzy equivalent so that should free some of our combat dice against big groups… I think. I might be missing something.
 
Skippy said:
I mean, I agree that plans can say what we want to do if we can, which is why I don't want us stuck in amongst Thanes and mercenaries who we outnumber already, and instead want Halla able to respond to what the enemy do. If that means dealing with a charging Knight because Stigulf and Farbjorn are occupied, we should do that, if it means fighting our kinsmen, we should to that, and if it means seeing an opening and taking six guys to go exploit it, we should do that. That's what a good small unit leader does.

Sorry for getting a bit heated before, but that's how I look at it, anyway.
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I feel like worrying about this on Halla, whose actions we have actual control over, is a bit odd? Like, basically any plan we make for Halla herself is for the first turn of combat and then we can change it if needed. That said, I did add some specific notes about leading our troops and adapting to the situation as needed to my plan just to clarify intent there.

And no worries, it's cool.
 
I'm not overly sure what the current argument is and/or was about, but you'll have a round break upon Halla encountering the enemy—to let you adapt and include the details you learn about your enemy
 
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