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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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I don't think that the risk of doing poorly at Liminal Realms is actually a big risk, tbh. We rolled a nat 1 unprepared and a Daemon Lord managed to monologue at us; it did not breach into reality. The action literally could not have gone worse, and Mathilde still wasn't at risk.

Apparition Binding is described as being as dangerous as learning battle magic except the risk is more front-loaded. Mathilde could die in several different ways here, if things go poorly. I can't really credit that it's less dangerous than Liminal Realms.
 
Man. This is a bewildering vote already with how many fine variations of every plan there are. And, not to add fuel to that fire, but it's a bit sad that the discussion of whether it would be better to let our scribes cut their teeth on a minor library first seems to have disappeared in the face of all the other controversy.
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Mathilde is significantly more mobile than a Red Rider. Her shadowsteed is probably faster, and besides she can teleport. I can't see many situations where Mathilde is stuck in a melee and the Red Rider isn't also stuck, and has the freedom to charge whatever she's fighting.
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We don't care if the Red Rider is stuck though. We can call it up and teleport out in the same spell, leaving the Rider to pin the enemies rather than have them chase Mathilde.

The Red Rider is a pocket distraction, meat shield, and head hunter. We can send it out to operate autonomously and attract attention somewhere else so that Mathilde doesn't get stuck in the first place, such as by engaging bodyguards or intercepting reinforcements.

There's a huge range of societies where the Red Rider can make Mathilde avoid societies where she gets pinned down or help her extricate herself.
 
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A variant that switches mapping to sevirscope, and Eike from the Hochlander to enchanting

[X] Plan Path to Ascension
[X] Plan Variant X
[X] Plan Elfcation Time!
[X] Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope
[X] Plan Roadmap to Success
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Mathilde is significantly more mobile than a Red Rider. Her shadowsteed is probably faster, and besides she can teleport. I can't see many situations where Mathilde is stuck in a melee and the Red Rider isn't also stuck, and has the freedom to charge whatever she's fighting.
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Tbf a red rider does not have the usual weaknesses that make a cavalry trooper vulnerable in a melee. His horse will not get scared, can not be killed without also killing him and you can not pull a red rider off his horse, heck the horse is only slightly less dangerous then the rider.
 
Voting seviroscope:

[x] Plan Redshirt v4.53236
[X] Plan Roadmap to Success with Sevirscope & Eike
[X] Plan Redshirt v3.14159265 w/Riders and Busy Eike & Seviriscope, no speculum
[X] Plan Redshirt v4 (Sevirscope)
 
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Wiggy said:
Man. This is a bewildering vote already with how many fine variations of every plan there are. And, not to add fuel to that fire, but it's a bit sad that the discussion of whether it would be better to let our scribes cut their teeth on a minor library first seems to have disappeared in the face of all the other controversy.
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Have I got an infopost for you! Newly updated to feature the various 'scope plans, plus the one Father plan.

And yeah, the nature of the beast is such that it's often really hard to switch around minor actions because most people don't feel strongly enough about them to split the vote or approval-vote until it rises far enough to be viable. C'est la quest.
Thomasfoolery said:
[X] Plan Roadmap to Success with Sevirscope & Eike
-[X] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Rider in Red)
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] MAX: Study an artefact (Lustrian Rubbings)
-[X] EGRIMM: Windherding (Sevirscope)
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Niedzwenka, Egrimm, Elrisse, Tochter, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Cadaeth, Tochter)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defenses
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[X] SERENITY: Observations on the Windfall north of the Dark Lands (Egrimm as primary author)
-[X] Eike Actions: Lustrian Rubbings, Windfall, Windherding, Fog Bridge
-[X] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)

A variant that switches mapping to sevirscope, and Eike from the Hochlander to enchanting
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Isn't this identical to the already-existing Plan Bring Running Shoes with Seviroscope?
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Can we cast the spell if we're stuck in a melee? I doubt it's like throwing a pokeball or something.
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Much of the work of summoning an apparition is apparently in capturing and binding it in the first place, less in making it manifest. Hopefully this makes it quicker to make it materialise.

Even if this isn't so, we don't have to wait until we're actually in melee to summon it, we can summon it as enemies are moving to engage us or vice versa.
 
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Deathbybunnies said:
I don't think that the risk of doing poorly at Liminal Realms is actually a big risk, tbh. We rolled a nat 1 unprepared and a Daemon Lord managed to monologue at us; it did not breach into reality. The action literally could not have gone worse, and Mathilde still wasn't at risk.

Apparition Binding is described as being as dangerous as learning battle magic except the risk is more front-loaded. Mathilde could die in several different ways here, if things go poorly. I can't really credit that it's less dangerous than Liminal Realms.
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This is a valid concern, but I do not wish to base my assumptions on whether the Lord of Change couldn't enter the Liminal Realm, or whether it just thought it would be absolutely funnier to freak out a witch-hunter-hat-wearing wizard by monologuing at her.

Also, we had to evacuate the magic in the room and close the darn thing. We won't be able to evacuate magic outside our lab.

Finally, I have faith that Johann will save us should we roll a nat 1 against the Rider.
 
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[x] Plan Redshirt v4.53236
-[X] MAX: Study: Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands
-[x] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Whispering Darkness)
-[X] EGRIMM: Windherding (Sevirscope)
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Niedzwenka, Egrimm, Elrisse, Tochter, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Cadaeth, Tochter)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Windfall Observations, with Egrimm as Primary Author
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defences.
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[x] Eike Actions: Lustrian Rubbings, Windfall, Windherding, Fog Bridge
-[X] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)

[X] Plan Redshirt v4 (Sevirscope)
-[X] MAX: Study: Books and rubbings from an Asur explorer of Lustria and the Southlands
-[x] JOHANN: Hunt an apparition (Whispering Darkness)
-[X] EGRIMM: Windherding (Sevirscope)
-[X] Waystone: Foundation (Thorek, Hatalath, Sarvoi, Niedzwenka, Egrimm, Elrisse, Tochter, Zlata)
-[X] Tributary: International (Kislev) (Zlata, Niedzwenka, Aksel, Cadaeth, Tochter)
-[X] Attempt to create a liminal realm
--[X] COIN: The Gambler
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Windfall Observations, with Egrimm as Primary Author
-[X] EIC: Negotiate and plan a magical route through the Schadensumpf to allow for easier trade with the Eonir without compromising their defences.
-[X] KAU: Begin copying the full corpus of a Partner Library (Grand University of Nuln)
-[x] Eike Actions: Lustrian Rubbings, Windherding, Fog Bridge
-[X] Eike Study: Enchanting class at the Grey College (1 CF)

I just don't like the rider.
I don't find it cool thematically, and i am unconvinced by the arguments about how useful it would be compared to other candidates.
I've made my peace that it is what probably will win, but i'm still going to do my last attempt against it.
 
Alratan said:
Also, we don't have to wait until we're in melee to summon it.
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Yes, but I was responding to the specific scenario of "Mathilde is stuck in combat, and needs her pocket knight to ride in and rescue her", which I was criticising because I don't see it as a realistic scenario. Either the knight is already summoned, at which point it's also stuck in combat and can't rescue us, or we have to take the time to summon it, which leaves us open to our enemies attacks because we're distracted casting a spell.
 
I just had a thought about apparation binding and familiars. One is contained in the soul the other is connected to it, might there be some overlap? Just imagine we tell wolf telepathically to get our newspaper and an armored knight rushes down the staircase to reach the paper boy before the wolf does.
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Yes, but I was responding to the specific scenario of "Mathilde is stuck in combat, and needs her pocket knight to ride in and rescue her", which I was criticising because I don't see it as a realistic scenario. Either the knight is already summoned, at which point it's also stuck in combat and can't rescue us, or we have to take the time to summon it, which leaves us open to our enemies attacks because we're distracted casting a spell.
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One of the spells that Boney has OK-ed previously is a mist spell that manifests a fog bank that a Red Rider can selectively condense itself out of, essentially allowing it to teleport around in (and potentially reform if 'killed').

That means that Mathilde can cast the Knights in the Mists spell to drop a fog bank, and while the spell persists the Rider can manifest at any point and then teleport around in to avoid encirclement and give the impression that there ar emore of them than there actually are.

This would make the Rider even more mobile than Mathilde, and allow things like repeated cavalry charges, where the Rider(s) charge in, then vanish and reform a sufficient distance away to build up to a charge again.

And even without this particular spell, the fact that the rider is previously summoned doesn't mean that it's already stuck in combat, and a previously summoned Rider can ensure that Mathilde doesn't get stuck in the first place. It can act as a meat shield to buy her the time to teleport out or finish what she was doing.

I see calling up what are essentially bodyguards/reinforcements to hold in reserve before a critical moment as something Mathilde would do as standard. Apparitions are intelligent and have a soul link, so can presumably be left somewhere after being summoned and then mentally commanded to charge in it.
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Yes, but I was responding to the specific scenario of "Mathilde is stuck in combat, and needs her pocket knight to ride in and rescue her", which I was criticising because I don't see it as a realistic scenario. Either the knight is already summoned, at which point it's also stuck in combat and can't rescue us, or we have to take the time to summon it, which leaves us open to our enemies attacks because we're distracted casting a spell.
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If we can not cast at all because there are so many bodies (which even when the Orks where surrounding us we had some leeway) we have already fucked up more then normal. Casting is about as instinctive to us as sword swinging.
 

Why Should You Vote For Plan Redshirt?


Payoffs. We've got 'em.

Windherding. Sevirscope.

With our patent pending approach, so many items that we've been putting off for years can finally come to fruition. We've waited on the sidelines for too long. Now is the time for action. Plus: set up more payoffs for later. It's a virtuous cycle.

Lesson Learned.

Children are our future.

Plan Redshirt contains a cohesive and synergistic curriculum for Eike. Learn about enchanting, learn about various forms of windsight, then learn about combining various forms of magic to create something to perceive windsight. Read an adventure about an explorer in Lustria, then top it off with some diplomacy and observation of large scale bridge enchantment.

Whispers In The Wind.

Can you hear them calling?

We've long discussed the desire for Mathile to create her own offensive Ulgu Battlemagic, based on fog thematics. The Whispering Darkness promises to deliver death and insanity to all our foes far beyond Melkoth's feeble little miasma, in a stable and easy to deploy package. Flay the very souls of our foes. Anyone who wields Dhar will soon learn to regret that they were ever born. Elfcation awaits.
 
Alratan said:
Red Riders are great in a situation where Mathilde's mobility would be shut down, as an armoured cavalryman can charge into the fray and distract and tie up the enemy so Mathilde can do a runner using them as a meat shield, or physically extract her and carry her away.
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I can't think of any circumstance where she could summon an apparition but couldn't summon her shadow steed or just teleport out.

The Red Rider has its uses, but in this case its entirely redundant- Mathilde has existing, better options to extract herself from a melee. If none of them are viable, the Red Rider wouldn't be either.

[x] Plan Redshirt v4.53236
[X] Plan Redshirt v4 (Sevirscope)
[x] Plan Redshirt v3.14159
 
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Alratan said:
One of the spells that Boney has OK-ed previously is a mist spell that manifests a fog bank that a Red Rider can selectively condense itself out of, essentially allowing it to teleport around in (and potentially reform if 'killed').

That means that Mathilde can cast the Knights in the Mists spell to drop a fog bank, and while the spell persists the Rider can manifest at any point and then teleport around in to avoid encirclement and give the impression that there ar emore of them than there actually are.

This would make the Rider even more mobile than Mathilde, and allow things like repeated cavalry charges, where the Rider(s) charge in, then vanish and reform a sufficient distance away to build up to a charge again.

And even without this particular spell, the fact that the rider is previously summoned doesn't mean that it's already stuck in combat, and a previously summoned Rider can ensure that Mathilde doesn't get stuck in the first place. It can act as a meat shield to buy her the time to teleport out or finish what she was doing.
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Okay, but that means we have to invest more time into Red Riders. Instead of just 2-3 AP for binding it, we also have to add another 2 AP on top of that to develop a new spell to grant it the extra mobility.

I'm not sure I'm interested in investing twice as much AP into a single apparition—we could make other spells, or windherd something, or catch a second apparition for the same effort.
 
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GrimTheMad said:
I can't think of any circumstance where she could summon an apparition but couldn't summon her shadow steed or just teleport out.

The Red Rider has its uses, but in this case its entirely redundant- Mathilde has existing, better options to extract herself from a melee. If none of them are viable, the Red Rider wouldn't be either.
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The scenario where Mathilde is doing something else and calls up the Rider to engage incoming enemies so she can keep on doing it without them attacking her.

Or the scenario where she can't teleport very far due to line of sight so drops the Rider where she was to engage her pursuers to give her a bigger headstart.

Or the scenario where she has allies she doesn't want to abandon.

Or the scenario where she calls them in advance and has them escorting her.
 
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Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Okay, but that means we have to invest more time into Red Riders. Instead of just 2-3 AP for biding it, we also have to add another 2 AP on top of that to develop a new spell to grant it the extra mobility.

I'm not sure I'm interested in investing twice as much AP into a single apparition—we could make other spells, or windherd something, or catch a second apparition for the same effort.
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We have to invent a spell to shroud them in Ulgu and summon them anyway as I understand it. This would just be that spell. The mist would be the mechanism through which they manifest, and so would benefit from the Staff of Mistery discount when cast and the Warrior of Fog trait when being created, so may well be easier than another spell that didn't use those things.

All apparitions need at least one novel spell that incorporates them invented to make use of them,

Binding an apparition just gives us a resource that can be used in future spell creation I think. It would be the same for the Whispering Darkness or any other people want to bind.

The fact that there are lots of spells we could invent using the same Apparition is an advantage as well. We get more bang for our buck, even if we can only use one of them simultaneously.
 
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