Is Gabriel also strongly associated with fire, like Halla? Given his blackstone blade martial style.
His family owns a blessed coal mine, that's where their Style is anchored.
That was a joke guys, I don't think you can nonlethally subdue someone by hitting them in the face.

So how long is a long, long time ago?

Cause just four years ago Gabriel was referring to us as 'The Murderer's Daughter'. But four years isn't really that long, all things considered. Or three years, for that matter. Could it be all the way back when he was being bulldozed by Squires?
Do remember, he was bullied by his peers back home as well, for lagging in cultivation.

Itt was also specifically called out in his interlue/our first spar.

All that years of training.... And a barbarian, not to mention a woman, beats him after some month of practice.
Use Seidr to Open Gabriel's Gate, then use a Calm Charge on him.
Eh.... No need to open his gate, but I like the idea of injecting him with the calming charge.
Question is, can we do that?
 
I can understand people feeling nervous about KGT.

But I think any plan that assumes we can Backstep our way out of an AOE finale by spending 4 Odr is, uh... not going to end well. Like, there's hubris, and then in some higher spiritual plane of overconfidence, there's that.

It's been made pretty clear to us with FTB that the way to stop it is either to meet it with another Finale, or disable/interrupt the user before they finish. If we're not doing that, then I think we're facing certain bodily death.

That said, I kinda have second thoughts about KGT myself. He's our friend, and he's in pain.

I think trying to "win" this fight at all might be kind of a trap the more I think about it. Or at least not the way I'd prefer to go about things.

@Imperial Fister, I know we don't have a Glima for it, but can we grab him on a hug? Like a big bear hug?
 
We could also eat the Finisher-level Sword Strike, use that opportunity to do something and hope that the Finisher-level isn't enough to, you know, finish us off.

This would probably stack a whole bunch of Sin on Gabriel tho

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If we IAT Gabriel's mouth, would that suffocate him? Might be enough to KO him if we get a good opportunity to pull it off.

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I feel like, 'just talk Gabriel down' is too straightforward an answer?
 
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You know, I just realized something.

Halla's likely more than halfway through her lifespan, while Gabriel has literally just started his life.

The lifespan difference is real, and I don't think he knows about that, which is sharply contributing to his current feelings.
 
You know, I just realized something.

Halla's likely more than halfway through her lifespan, while Gabriel has literally just started his life.

The lifespan difference is real, and I don't think he knows about that, which is sharply contributing to his current feelings.
Oooh, shit, yeah, we should talk about that with him, after he settled down internally.
 
Hmm, what does sin do to the christians/knights? We know how nid affects the Norse, somewhat at least, since we're not sure how it affects true cultivators all too well besides affecting their odr gain.
 
I think Sin eats at your Fervor regeneration.

Notably enough, Gabriel in full Wrath mode isn't eating Sin penalties right now - I suspect he's gonna eat a ton of it after this incident though.

Hmm

Christian Cultivation seems to involve a loop between Fervor and Zeal somehow, so there's presumably a bottleneck that makes it go real slow at some point.
 
Hmm, what does sin do to the christians/knights? We know how nid affects the Norse, somewhat at least, since we're not sure how it affects true cultivators all too well besides affecting their odr gain.
I think that's only true in the beginning.
You can use odr instead of ortstirr after all...
And once you can open your gate as you want... Ortstirr is a nice to have thing.
 
I think that's only true in the beginning.
You can use odr instead of ortstirr after all...
And once you can open your gate as you want... Ortstirr is a nice to have thing.
The amount of Odr we gain directly corresponds to the amount of ortstirr we have. We have not figured out how to regen odr or not have our odr gain based on Ortstirr. Having nid affects Halla directly.
 
You know, I think that a Stage 2 Odr Cultivator with a completed Soulfarm and all will, simply be existing, (slowly) add to the Total Orthsirr pool that all Norsemen have access to.

Farms are prestigious after all.

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Actually I wonder if the original Norse Cultivators up and out didn't have Orthsirr. They had to draw Odr from beyond the Gate with just their Orthsirr-less Aspects.

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Could we design a trick that reduces incoming damage instead of outright blocking them? Like, an almost-perfect defence or somesuch.
 
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The amount of Odr we gain directly corresponds to the amount of ortstirr we have. We have not figured out how to regen odr or not have our odr gain based on Ortstirr. Having nid affects Halla directly.
How do the dead cultivate then?
Then, seidr has ways to open the gate without aspects or orthstirr.
And orthstirr, itself, was a sacrifice by someone long ago to give every Norse person a chance.
It's a patch, not the original system and while not necessary, definitely makes initiating into Odr cultivation easier.
That limiter on Odr gain is not a hard limit, what with Halla drawing in more when she first opened the gate than her limit was, but literal childproofing so people have a chance to not die from overload on the first try. They still do, but mostly because they are (most often) already badasses with just a gigantic Orthstirr pool and dont know the rules, hence they do it alone, and get knocked out with no one to save them.

Alas, the enemy always prefer losses where it still wins something than losses where it wins nothing.
 
Then, seidr has ways to open the gate without aspects or orthstirr.

Seidr does use orthstirr, though? Not to mention orthstirr not existing just doesn't really make sense to me, if it was a patch? It's like, a huge part of Norse culture. I don't see how it couldn't exist. Without orthstirr, the culture would probably be way different.
 
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We need a more reliable supply of odr to fully commit to having only odr fuel our attacks. Or more perfect tricks/0 cost tricks.
 
Hey Blackhand,

How fast are Finales? How do you stop them?

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Honestly the main drain on our Orthsirr in battle is like, Hone spam. Can we Sharpen defensive actions?

I think we should go and figure out Fortify. We should experiment with Reinforce and see if we can make it improve further, right now it's just a worse Honing.

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I feel like both talking to Gabriel and trying to beat him up are kind of, at most adjacent to the right answer, if not outright wrong.

Would being notably injured by Gabriel halt his Wrath?

Maybe Gabriel just needs to let loose some steam?
 
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While it is possible to accidentally kill people, you'll have to deal double their Endurance if you're trying to non-lethally take them down to kill them accidentally. D&D rules, sort of.
Clarification on this:

By 'Double their Endurance', do you mean:

1) Double their maximum endurance (So we would need to do 32 Endurance Damage to Gabriel to accidentally him)
2) Double their current Endurance (So we can do 14 Endurance in one hit (7 x2), but if we do say, 4 Endurance damage first, then we can only afford 6 Endurance damage, etc)
3) Double their Endurance, starting from when we decided to try and subdue them (So 14 Endurance total)

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Incidentally, Steinarr's giga attack speed build is based around exploiting the Stoked Pool. His Sharpened Attacks dealt only 1+2 damage to us.

But each one also generated, liked, 4d6 extra combat dice.

(I don't think Steinarr used his Stoker Dice for his basic attacks, I think he used them for his Tricks.)

(Also a build based around Contested Movement Stoker Dice Looping could actually be super brutal if we work on it?)

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Contested Movement Stoker Dice Loop build:

1) Get Hamr higher
2) Master/Perfect Contested-Movement
3) Get Stoker Style to at least Rank 7

Loop works as so:

1) Make Basic Attacks
2) Use Contested-Movement w/Stoker Dice to counter all incoming attacks and tricks with Stoker Dice, making a Basic Attack as a counter, which generates Stoker Dice.
3) Normal Attack opponent
4) Normal Attack + Contested-Movement's Counterattack = 8d6 (well currently 4d6), add to Hamr (8d6+) = 16d6, which is enough to roll over most people.

Loop Weaknesses:
1) Enough Hamr (Monsters/High-End Cultivators)/Hamr-Dice adders (Sten has one)
2) Another Stoker Style User (Sten, Steinarr, possibly Eric)
3) Anyone with an ability that read 'Add dice to any one move in combat' (People around probably have some)
4) AOE abilities that Contested-Movement doesn't work on. (Lots)
5) Multiple enemies (Will happen at some point)
6) Counter builds (build needs to land Basic attacks for it to work)
7) Does not work on Finales. : (
8) Major issues dealing with people who have more attack speed than us.
 
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But I think any plan that assumes we can Backstep our way out of an AOE finale by spending 4 Odr is, uh... not going to end well. Like, there's hubris, and then in some higher spiritual plane of overconfidence, there's that.

To be clear in my plan this is a desperate last contingency, not an expectation...like Perfects in the plan last turn, it is like the fourth tier of defenses and not the actual main plan at all. The idea is to talk him down or knock him out. It's in there because there's no reason not to include some response to failing to take him out before his Finale goes off, not because we plan to let it get that far.

The lifespan difference is real, and I don't think he knows about that, which is sharply contributing to his current feelings.

No, he knows. It was mentioned in his interlude (he mentions outliving his captors being cold comfort)...it's just that he is still the same age as Halla and it's not really real to him emotionally.

Clarification on this:

By 'Double their Endurance', do you mean:

1) Double their maximum endurance (So we would need to do 32 Endurance Damage to Gabriel to accidentally him)
2) Double their current Endurance (So we can do 14 Endurance in one hit (7 x2), but if we do say, 4 Endurance damage first, then we can only afford 6 Endurance damage, etc)
3) Double their Endurance, starting from when we decided to try and subdue them (So 14 Endurance total)

Based on the 'like D&D' reference, it's probably 'He dies at -16 Endurance.' Which is not actually any of these three since he's currently at 7. It'd be we need to do 7+ damage to knock him out, but less than 23 to avoid killing him.
 
Seidr does use orthstirr, though? Not to mention orthstirr not existing just doesn't really make sense to me, if it was a patch? It's like, a huge part of Norse culture. I don't see how it couldn't exist. Without orthstirr, the culture would probably be way different.
I remember it coming up before, though i think, not in threadmarks.
Can't find it for the life of me, so buried it is in the thread.... if anyone finds it though, they have my thanks!
But what i remember is that, that Orthstirr is a communal pool. More Norse there are, the less Ortstirr there is to divide. Then as we are in the written world, the more prominent someone is the more screen time they have.... and thus a bigger share of the Orthstirr.
There is also how the Drengskapr, odrengskapr and Nid system function, with the one who sacrificed themselves to activate the Orthstirr cultivation patch laid down the rules so there is less kin strife among the Norse.

it was multiple posts iirc.... but sadly even i am not sure if i do or if its just something i made up that got stuck in my head.
 
I remember it coming up before, though i think, not in threadmarks.
Can't find it for the life of me, so buried it is in the thread.... if anyone finds it though, they have my thanks!
But what i remember is that, that Orthstirr is a communal pool. More Norse there are, the less Ortstirr there is to divide. Then as we are in the written world, the more prominent someone is the more screen time they have.... and thus a bigger share of the Orthstirr.

This was stated by Imperial Fister, yeah.

There is also how the Drengskapr, odrengskapr and Nid system function, with the one who sacrificed themselves to activate the Orthstirr cultivation patch laid down the rules so there is less kin strife among the Norse.

This, however, is purely speculative. It's possible but unconfirmed.
 
Drengskapr and Odrengskapr are not supernatural effects, they don't have metaphysical backing. They're literally just your reputation.
 
Drengskapr and Odrengskapr are not supernatural effects, they don't have metaphysical backing. They're literally just your reputation.

I mean, they do in fact have metaphysical backing, if slightly indirectly. They're your mundane reputation, sure, but since Orthstirr cares about your reputation, it provides them very real metaphysical backing in the form of increased or decreased Orthstirr rewards.
 
Based on the 'like D&D' reference, it's probably 'He dies at -16 Endurance.' Which is not actually any of these three since he's currently at 7. It'd be we need to do 7+ damage to knock him out, but less than 23 to avoid killing him.
I'm personally a little concerned that Firebomb Stunner Strikes may be like, inherently lethal? Like, there's definitely a difference between bringing someone down to Endurance -6 and Endurance -1, to take an analogy.

Also it might be worth explicating that the Stunner Strikes shouldn't be Shame-Strikes?
 
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I'm personally a little concerned that Firebomb Stunner Strikes may be like, inherently lethal? Like, there's definitely a difference between bringing someone down to Endurance -6 and Endurance -1, to take an analogy.

I think IF would've told us if some attacks were insta-lethal. The 'let's make this nonlethal' rules are pretty clear that it's pretty much just being careful with the amount of damage done.

And, to be clear on numbers, if the Flashfire Cleave hits, he's gonna be at, like, 6 Endurance afterward with no armor protecting him, and one Firebomb Stunner Strike should take him out (and down to between -2 and -4 assuming it does standard Firebomb Strike damage)...there are up to three in case he successfully defends more than anything (which, given that he's going all-out on offense and explicitly cutting his defenses to the bone actually seems unlikely, but it's worth planning around).

Also it might be worth explicating that the Stunner Strikes shouldn't be Shame-Strikes?

I think that's circumstantial rather than based on the nature of the strike itself. Like, they represent using the butt end of the weapon, which can be seen as disrespectful depending on context...but we're trying to knock him out which makes that not disrespectful at all.
 
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There is also how the Drengskapr, odrengskapr and Nid system function, with the one who sacrificed themselves to activate the Orthstirr cultivation patch laid down the rules so there is less kin strife among the Norse.

You're right about there being less orthstirr the more Norse there are, but there is no basis for this claim right here? There's nothing that suggests that kinstrifing was a major problem among the Norse. Nor does it refute what I said, unless I misunderstood something?
 
I think Nid is partially societal and partially personal. Like, what counts as 'Nid' may change as Norse Society grows and change.
I think that's circumstantial rather than based on the nature of the strike itself. Like, they represent using the butt end of the weapon, which can be seen as disrespectful depending on context...but we're trying to knock him out which makes that not disrespectful at all.
It's a shaming-strike depending on location.
 
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