Different routes are good for different things, you wouldn't want to transport stone or other heavy things by cart if at all possible. Charcoal I imagine is also one of those annoying to cart things.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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Ideally we want both a sea and land link, that way we get the ability to partially bypass Marienberg for trade via the Sea of Claws.
The merchants of Middenheim would probably be glad to be able to sell goods to the Eonir that they sell on to Kislev, Bretonnia, etc.
We're not just talking about Tor Linethel as a destination for goods, but also as a source and as a new node in the wider global trade network.
The merchants of Middenheim would probably be glad to be able to sell goods to the Eonir that they sell on to Kislev, Bretonnia, etc.
We're not just talking about Tor Linethel as a destination for goods, but also as a source and as a new node in the wider global trade network.
If we can do Orbs and Apparitions before Elfcation we'd be set at least in my mind.
Negotiate with the tributary concepts as a lure to bring them into the project?
We're giving you this stuff for free but if you don't join now you're going to have to pay for everything in the future should at least light a fire under the Bretonnians because if we can give away this much then what are we keeping back?
Negotiate with the tributary concepts as a lure to bring them into the project?
We're giving you this stuff for free but if you don't join now you're going to have to pay for everything in the future should at least light a fire under the Bretonnians because if we can give away this much then what are we keeping back?
I really don't like the idea of just gifting them with the knowledge all the members of the Waystone Project have been +2 years working to discover.
It feels like a disrespect to the work everyone else has been putting into figuring Waystones.
Also the justification of "bringing nations together" feels weird to me. If that is the reason then should we also recruit Estalia and Tiles too? What about Araby? Or does that justification apply only to Bretonnia?
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As much as the thread keeps calling it an "Elfcation", remember that it is still an incredibly dangerous trip that will likely see Mathilde in multiple life-or-death fights against opponents hundreds of years her senior.
It's not the riskiest place she's been or the riskiest thing she's done, but it's not safe. I'd like to get the magnum opus that we're 98% of the way done with complete before heading off. It's true that the Waystone Project would also collapse without her and that's terrible, but that's such a long-term thing that I'd vote for an Naggarythe plan before it's done because otherwise it's literal years away (and even then Mathilde's likely to then jump into something else new and reset the clock).
The Orbs of Sorcery are potentially done on the turn after next. I'm patient enough for that.
It's not the riskiest place she's been or the riskiest thing she's done, but it's not safe. I'd like to get the magnum opus that we're 98% of the way done with complete before heading off. It's true that the Waystone Project would also collapse without her and that's terrible, but that's such a long-term thing that I'd vote for an Naggarythe plan before it's done because otherwise it's literal years away (and even then Mathilde's likely to then jump into something else new and reset the clock).
The Orbs of Sorcery are potentially done on the turn after next. I'm patient enough for that.
Everybody wins if ambiant magic goes down in Bretonnia. And considering how much that nation values honor, I wouldn't worry too much.
Also, almost everyone else has had to be "bribed" in some way in order to be brought into the project. Doing odd jobs for the colleges, clearing an important threat to Kislev, doing SOOO much for the Karaz Ankor, allowing Laurelorn to host the project, etc. I don't think it's a bad deal to gift tributarie in exchange for goodwill, it's not like we lose anything by acting for the common good.
As for bringing in Tilea, Estalia and Araby, Tilea is a fragmented realm of dubious utility, don't know much about Estalia and Araby's geographical position makes them less useful of allies. Nevermind the fact that Waystones are much less useful for these nations due to lower ambiant magic.
NexusEye
Aspiring God
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Estalia is also fragmented into multiple kingdoms, one of the goals of the Aquila Academies other than their crusade plans is to eventually reunite Estalia.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
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Well, the theoretical goals anyway.
The lack of any threat from Araby for the last millennia has made it so even the Knights of Magritta don't care anymore, and only the Bretonnian academy actually cares about uniting Estalia at this point.
Considering that the Empire has fought Bretonnia before - a lot - we could indeed lose stuff if we are too generous.
We negotiated first with the other Colleges and with Thorek (the other stuff we did for the Dwarfs put Mathilde in a position to negotiate but was rewarded separately - see giant Library, special sword, personal gyrocopter, etc). The only time we did free stuff in advance was with Kislev.
Aliya
Someone I might become
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I think we should at least have all individual components working, and then use that as an advantage in trade with Brettonia to get as many shinies for us, the project, and Empire as we can. We can also help them with the Black orc stuff to get even more shinies.
Building a strong relationship with the Fey Enchantress could do a lot to prevent future fights of that kind. We have the advantage that she's immortal and is likely to repay good will with good will because of the nature of her Goddesss.
Remember that the output of the project belongs just as much to the Karaz Ankor, Laurelorn and Kislev as it does to the Empire.
They could choose to trade the results to Bretonnia for the right price. Kislev is probably one of Bretonnia's major trading partners c Carcassone is already befriending the dwarves, and if Laurelorn opens its port they may also want to open trade and diplomatic relationships.
I am not sure about waiting for all the components, but I would be ok with trading what we have for shinies, same for the Black Orc mission.
Personally I'd prefer books as shinies, but what can I say, I like books.
Then let's straight up negotiate with the Fey Enchantress instead of hoping that she will feel like stopping wars against the Empire.
Like, the 4th war against the Empire was almost immediately after the Great Warm against Chaos where Bretonnia and the Empire fought side by side (and despite that she did nothing to stop said war).
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
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Bretonnia was not involved in the Great War Against Chaos, no Bretonnians were in Kislev.
They'd just been busy with the False Grail Affair, which might have even been a deliberate Chaos plot to distract them if Malfeur was a Chaos sorceress.
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
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I mean I'm still not seeing this as having anything to do with the runesmithing beyond the existence of Bok, which is sufficiently unique that I'm not sure we can derive much from its existence.
The only other thing that might indicate a connection is the tale of Ghazul severing the glittering realm from the Aethyr, but since we don't fully know what that even means or would entail I don't think we can really say that proves rune magic and earth bound magic are connected that way.
It's already been noted that the Bretonnians were busy during that war with chaos, but given the war was over, why should the Fey Enchantress care about a conflict with the Empire when there aren't bigger fish to fry. A strong, unified Empire historically isn't in Bretonnia's interests, having resulted in Dukedoms becoming imperial provinces in the past.
Giving them a quick kick in the aftermath of a major Chaos attack in the hope of, say, taking out/discrediting Magnus and causing the provinces to splinter again might have seen like a risk worth taking. After all, it had just been demonstrated that you didn't need an already united Empire to resist an Everchosen, the Gods of the Empire would do what was needed if such an emergency arose.
A gesture like sharing tributaries for a fair rather than extortionate price is the kind of goodwill gesture that might reassure the Fey Enchantress that the new Empire is the kind of neighbour that can be worked with.
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Our deal with the dwarves is a personal bargain with Thorek who isn't going to break the millennia old Dawi tradition of being honest dealers for some possible benefits to Karak Norn; the Eonir want better relations with their closest neighbours rather than people far away from them and the Kiselvites are aware that they can be kicked out of the project real quick.
They have precisely equal rights to sell the information we've learned as we do. It's no more them breaking being an honest dealer to sell the information to the Bretonnians than it is for us to.
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Charcoal isn't very dense actually. 200-400kg/m3, while hematite (most common iron ore) is more than 4000kg/m3. Transporting charcoal by sea on the other hand would mean a delay to actually using it, as exposing it to the sea air would likely allow it to absorb water, and prevent it from lighting properly until dried out.
Is sea air better or worse than swamp air though?
[X] Plan Redshirt v1
I don't want to give Bretonnia anything they could use against the Empire, but offering them tributaries AFAIK doesn't really hurt anyone but Chaos, and we could probably get some additional concessions. Even just telling them "we've managed to build tributaries, and are making good progress with the regular Waystones" might be enough to get them to join the Project if only to get the benefits of a potential success.
I don't want to give Bretonnia anything they could use against the Empire, but offering them tributaries AFAIK doesn't really hurt anyone but Chaos, and we could probably get some additional concessions. Even just telling them "we've managed to build tributaries, and are making good progress with the regular Waystones" might be enough to get them to join the Project if only to get the benefits of a potential success.
Mathilde said Bretonnia was allied with the Empire during the Great War, so apparently in quest canon it was involved:
I don't know if they were in Kislev proper, but there's other things they could've done. Maybe the Bretonnian navy fought Plague Fleets, such as the one that sacked Almshoven.
Bretonnia is actually not that far from Laurelorn - Laurelorn's western border is with Westerland, and Westerland's western border is with Couronne. Plus the Eonir's connection to the Sea of Claws makes trade with Bretonnia easier than trade with all Imperial provinces other than Nordland, Ostland and Middenland.
Arguably as long as the project is ongoing it's Mathilde's call, as she could claim that other contributors sharing that information with outsiders undermines the project's potential recruitment efforts. But sure, once the project shuts down all bets are off.
Yeah, arguably, if Marienberg is being problematic Tor Linetheal may effectively be closer to Montfort than the Reikland.
That's fine as long as she uses it purely for recruitment. If she uses it to advance the Empire's interests, as proposed up thread, I think the other participants might cry foul, particularly if it was their contribution being sold.
If an Dawi engineer would commission a smith on a project and then that smith would spill everything they learned to anyone then the infamous dwarf secrecy wouldn't exist.
Besides it isn't like Thorek isn't both politically savvy and appreciates Mathilde more than the entire nation of Bretonnia (because hey, when is the last time Bretonnians helped the Karaz Ankor regain two Karaks?).
The other participants have - for most part - already been bought or are part of the Empire to begin with.
It makes no sense the other participants to expect that Mathilde who fronted the favours and deeds and even bought the furniture won't also have extra benefits from the project.
Codex
Fantasy Addict
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Without factoring into the discussion, because I skipped seven pages so this is the one of the only posts I have context on, it's not just Estalia. Tilea is also a bunch of city states that are distinct from each other and cannot be realistically considered one nation either, and Araby is basically a sub-continent of small nations that are ostensibly under the control of a "Grand Sultan" who is literally just a figurehead, at least ever since Jaffar, who did manage to "unite" Araby (not completely true, there were those who resisted his influence and fought back against his rule).
The Empire, Kislev and Bretonnia are actually governed by a central authority, as tenuous as that authority may be at times. Tilea, Estalia and Araby don't really have that distinction. Attempting to bring any one of those "nations" into the fold is actually a much bigger endeavour than would be expected. Do we go to the Remans? The Miraglians? The Sartosans? Al-Haikk? Copher? Kalabad? Lashiek?
Sure but Thorek in particular does not have any special reason to care about Karak Norn also I am pretty sure he cannot sell the information since as non-a-wizard he cannot explain the details of the magical parts well enough to copy. At best he could sell hints as to what to do, the general idea of what worked and that sounds like a very shoddy trade for again a hold at the other end of the continent that he has never even visited.