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NorseQuest (A Norse Xianxia)

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Oh yeah, it can also be used as a close in 'Fuck Off' blast. That'll be handy against a tiny garden gnome that can probably out-muscle us in a grapple.
 
Sirrocco said:
Huh. So... if I'm getting this right....
- The upside of General tricks is that one trick can do a bunch of different things. This saves on slot cost.
- The downside of general tricks is that they cost more orthstirr to activate
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I'm with you so far.

Sirrocco said:
- A general trick is approximately as powerful as its more specific version.
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I think this is the part that's not true. They're as powerful as a cheap and weak more specific Trick, not an expensive more specific trick. A generic 'use explosions to move' trick (6 orthstirr, a generic trick example mentioned by our QM that can be used to move, dodge, or attack) is not as combat effective as Kindlespinner (5 orthstirr) or Firebomb Strike (4 orthstirr) on offense, far inferior to Halting Vortex (4 orthstirr) on defense, and certainly not anywhere close to as good at movement as Ember-Wing Cloak (12 Orthstirr).

Sirrocco said:
- Every trick takes about the same amount of effort (in training dice) to get to perfected.
- All perfected tricks are just free.

So... the cheeseball path to true long-term power would be to make the most general trick you can, and then perfect it? If a single general trick can cover for three more specific tricks (for example) then it'll take one third of the time to perfect as the full set of them, and at the end it'll cost one third of the slots, and the final effect will otherwise be identical.

Was this... intended?
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This is sort of true if you're planning on Perfecting a lot of cheap tricks...though I will note that things having orthstirr costs of 1-2 stops being as meaningful when you have 100+ orthstirr, and that Master rounds down, so it makes 1 orthstirr tricks free without needing to aim for Perfection. But basically, this just means you shouldn't waste effort Perfecting cheap tricks, rather than anything deeper.

But the guy who Perfects the 'explosion movement' trick mentioned above will lose to Halla if she instead Masters, say, Halting Vortex, Kindlespinner, and Ember-Wing-Cloak (Mastering 3 things costs the same successes as Perfecting one after all). Sure, the 'explosive movement' guy has free stuff, but Halla's stuff is better and still cheap enough she can smack him down before she runs out of orthstirr.

The guy who Perfects 'explosion movement' would likely be a better mook sweeper (since he can do that all day), but at high enough orthstirr the difference between 'free' and '2 orthstirr' rapidly becomes not particularly meaningful over the time scale of a single one-on-one fight, especially if the 2 orthstirr version is better than the free one, so he's likely not great in confrontation with his peers, or at least not as good as he would be if he invested his abilities differently.
 
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Sirrocco said:
I feel like...





I feel like these two go together. Like, Abjorn is going to get a very nice sword, but this isn't going to be free for Sten.

Now, Steinarr loves his sons. It's not going to hurt him too badly... but it's very much Not Free.

I'm thinking... permanent orthstirr loss? Based on how the magic system works, and on about how serious this sounds, I'm going to guess permanent orthstirr loss. It's also a reason why a man might not want to be known as a forger of steel, what with all the people who might try to demand his services.
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DeadmanwalkingXI said:
I don't think there's a literal sacrifice. I think it's more metaphorical than that...Sten is kind of on the run and making a steel sword is very attention-getting, which is a sacrifice of safety he's making here.
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Could be a combination of both.
Being true to yourself and being true to your word are important.
If he decided to stop doing the famous smithing stuff, to leave behind the top smith life, for his wife and daughter then making steel would be breaking his word to not do it, breaking his word to protect his family from whatever made him give up his old life.
So both risk and nid.
 
I think hone trick might need some kind of limit, getting + infinity dice on every attack seems a bit too good even for a perfected trick.
 
Imperial Fister said:
Do keep in mind that anything you can do, some enemies will too. And they'll likely be able to do it better.

Also the fact that one day, Halla will die. You won't always have access to the hugareida you do now.
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That wasn't actually my concern.

It was more that, hey, it sounds like there's a major long-term advantage (saving training time and slots) to going with generic tricks that isn't balanced out by any long-term disadvantages.

On the other hand, as @DeadmanwalkingXI points out, it's more a matter of that advantage going to expensive tricks, whether they're expensive because of being generic or because of being awesome... and, okay. Fair. "Perfected expensive tricks that you can use a lot" is a big deal for late-game Viking meta. Check.

Like, say, Halting-Vortex, which looks like it turns into "I get to no-sell any physical attacks that I'm actually aware of for effectively zero cost".
 
Imperial Fister said:
You can't train Hone.
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And there's the sharp side of it.

General Tricks can never be made Free. It's just a fallback if you don't have anything specialized.

But yeah, lategame Norse Meta seems all about Perfecting key Tricks to give a significant advantage, which is balanced out by the early game tendency to suck and die before your build really pops off.

Though once you hit those top tier levels, it generally expects either a god, a monster, a natural disaster, or another experienced cultivator to stop you it seems.
 
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Imperial Fister said:
Running tongue over teeth, he regards you with a careful look. "Halla, what are the Three Fundamental Truths? I'm sure you haven't forgotten them."

You blink, confusion clear across your furrowing brow, but you oblige him all the same.

"The First Fundamental Truth: Power Requires Sacrifice."

"The Second Fundamental Truth: All Men Die."

"The Third Fundamental Truth: Memory Is Forever."

It's almost as though you're a child again, just starting to learn the basics of the world, rather than the near-adult woman you are now.

"Good," he nods, pleased with your memory. "Now, why did I have you do that?"

Your mouth hangs open as you find yourself lacking an answer.
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All Men Die.
Halla is not a man. 2nd Fundamental Truth is void.
2nd is the fuel (Sacrifice) for 1st.
3rd Truth must compensate.
Halla sacrifices her Memory in order to grow?
Memory as in "remembering", or "being remembered"?

At least it fits on why Steinarr tested our memory about the Truths themselves.
 
Sirrocco said:
...and also, because it's scaling, it's a way to turn huge amounts of orthstirr into additional combat power, if you've already perfected everything else.
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I mean, we've not even begun to see what the Advanced Attributes start commanding, I imagine that Alloying and Shapeshifting are probably significant sinks for high values of Orthstirr too. And we know Seidr is expensive too.
 
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Continued about nisse: I'm going to speak mostly for Norway's lore here, not sure how much it generalizes to the Norse or this setting, but seeing as the QM is unlikely to tell us upfront all the things Halla doesn't know, we'll just have to speculate and infer from rumors and legends. ;)

"Nisse" could be translated "fae" on the grounds of how broad a group it is.
There's the relatively harmless fjøsnisse associated with the stable. Leave spare porridge out for him once a year (oops, Halla) and he'll help look after the animals.
Tomtenisses, the underworlders, live beneath a hill. Sometimes they come out to dance secret dances at twilight. They do not take kindly to being spied on. Some outlaws (like a Norwegian telling of Robin Hood) were said to have made pacts with them.
A ship might have its own skipsnisse, similar to a poltergeist, which makes petty trouble by dressing up in stolen clothes, smoking stolen tobacco, and impersonating a sailor, but may also pitch in to save the ship from storm or other disaster.
One song describes a farmer who was sick and tired of his nisse (farm-spirit, brownie) not performing, so he packed up everything and moved, but sadly the nisse decided to tag along to the new farm.
The biggest one is the julenisse, lit. "Christmas Nisse" but this is also the Norwegian name for Santa Claus.

Before D&D did its reinvention of the kobolds as lizardlike beings, cobolds were wicked underground fae who tormented miners, for example by leaving deposits of cobalt, the cursed fairy-ore that looks so beautifully bright blue, but is poisonous and useless. These critters, too, can be translated "nisse" in Norwegian. From a social perspective, they're beasts that you blame trouble on because it's more comfortable to blame someone than to accept that the miner's life just sucks and sometimes you die horribly.

Henrik Wergeland, one of Norway's great writers, wrote a poem and song titled Nisser og dverge. (Dverg is usually translated "dwarf".) It is mostly oriented towards the cobold sort of nisse.

Nisser og dverge bygger i berge; / men vi skal mine dem alle her ut. / Ti mens vi synger muntre i klynger, / sprenger vi berget i lufta med krutt.
Ja, la oss bore dype og store / huller i gråstein og blåstein og flint! / Da, mens vi synger muntre i klynger, / sprenger vi berget i stykker og splint.
Hurra, det knaller; for et rabalder! / Hurra, minerer, du vinner til sist. / Ti mens vi synger muntre i klynger, / sprenger vi berget ved makt og ved list.
Fjellet skal beve under vår neve; / hurra, minerer, nå knaller ditt skudd! / Nisser og dverge bygger i berge, / hurra, nå miner vi nissene ut!

An improvised translation, where I have dropped the rhyme, in favor of trying to keep the enthusiasm about how much payback is a bitch and it is time for the cruel forces of nature (and their personifications) to absolutely get some now that we have got the Industrial Revolution on our side:

Goblins and kobolds live in the mountains, but we are gonna blam them all outta here. Joyfully we sing, happy in bunches, as we blow this mountain to kingdom come.
Yes, let us drill big holes to stick dynamite sticks in all the rocks and caves and peaks. Then, as we're singing, the mountain will be blasted into tiny fragments and rubble and gravel.
Hurrah for explosions, we love the great noises, hurrah for the miners victorious at last. Joyfully we'll sing, over the rumbling, as we explode the mountain with cunning and force.
Now it's the mountain's turn to live in fear; hurrah for the miners who blow things up. Goblins and kobolds live in the mountains, but now we're driving the fey outta here.
💥💥💥
 
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Sirrocco said:
That wasn't actually my concern.

It was more that, hey, it sounds like there's a major long-term advantage (saving training time and slots) to going with generic tricks that isn't balanced out by any long-term disadvantages.

On the other hand, as @DeadmanwalkingXI points out, it's more a matter of that advantage going to expensive tricks, whether they're expensive because of being generic or because of being awesome... and, okay. Fair. "Perfected expensive tricks that you can use a lot" is a big deal for late-game Viking meta. Check.
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Definitely. What you really want to master are things that are either expensive to use, or become broken when free. Which is why I think our two best candidates for Perfection are Ember-Wing Cloak and Halting Vortex.

Sirrocco said:
Like, say, Halting-Vortex, which looks like it turns into "I get to no-sell any physical attacks that I'm actually aware of".
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Yep. Perfecting Halting Vortex is brutal to your enemies as they start having real problems actually harming you. 'Infinite free shields' is not an easy trick to beat.

Alectai said:
And there's the sharp side of it.

General Tricks can never be made Free. It's just a fallback if you don't have anything specialized.
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This is true, but misleading. Having a 'generic' but not General trick that is multipurpose has been mentioned as viable, so they can exist. I go into why that's not always a great choice above.

Sirrocco said:
...and also, because it's scaling, it's a way to turn huge amounts of orthstirr into additional combat power, if you've already perfected everything else.
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Hone does also have a non-obvious limitation (mentioned by our QM earlier) in that it must add one die to all your actions before it can wrap around and start adding a second one. So you take 12 actions total, and you can get +2 dice to all of them for 24 orthstirr, but you can't gain +24 dice to one of them for the same price.

Still very good, but worth bearing in mind.
 
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So, I'm noticing... We have Born of Fire, which is guaranteed to be passed down, largely because Hallr was Just That Good with fire, and did silly-impressive Fire things.

I'm wondering... if Halla somehow managed to get the rest of the Hugareida for Stillness, and got to be known for being super-scary with them (which seems eminently plausible) and performed some impressive Stillness-related feats and whatnot... could we earn a similar such boon to stack alongside it? For that matter, how do you not wind up with ancient heroes spawning family lines that just get ridiculous numbers of accumulated cheat-boons over the generations and win everything forever?
 
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Bitter-Black Bones (KreenWarrior)
  • Apocrypha
    • We'll just call this one "Bitter-Black Bones"

    One-eyed-sky[1] gazes on,
    Over rover maiden.
    Bitter-black cracked bones,
    Bear Ymir-eyes[2] on hunt.
    Frost's shine meets fierce fire's-line
    Fierce flight takes wight's head
    Battle's-friend [3] blackened
    But shines with Baldur's-sign[4]


    [1] Bit of a gimme, but yes, Odin
    [2] Ice-eyes = draugr
    [3] Warrior, ie, Halla
    [4] Light
     
  • Apocrypha
    • Sirrocco said:
    So, I'm noticing... We have Born of Fire, which is guaranteed to be passed down, largely because Hallr was Just That Good with fire, and did silly-impressive Fire things.

    I'm wondering... if Halla somehow managed to get the rest of the Hugareida for Stillness, and got to be known for being super-scary with them (which seems eminently plausible) and performed some impressive Stillness-related feats and whatnot... could we earn a similar such boon to stack alongside it? For that matter, how do you not wind up with ancient heroes spawning family lines that just get ridiculous numbers of accumulated cheat-boons over the generations and win everything forever?
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    Presumably, by making sure those family lines don't reproduce, since the inheritance seems to be limited to only a single descendent, and isn't necessarily immediately obvious.

    Like, say, what's been happening with Hallr's line?
     
    Because the big scary vikings tend to get killed before they Git Gud?
    Additionally, we know that the more descendants that are named for an ancestor, the more the power of the ancestors spirit splits.

    Edit: Regarding the Nisse (sometimes referred to as a Tomte), based on internet sources (so, grain of salt):
    -They have "immense strength or are unaffected by human strength".
    -They can usually use magic.
    -They have a deep bond with farm animals, but in particular horses.
    -They tend to be capable of at least a little shape-shifting.

    Regarding the cause for this:
    -They are Traditionalist, who don't like the way things are done at a farm changing (I think Halla's choice to go raiding might be responsible for this attack, as the Nisse thinks if it gives her a thrashing, she won't be able to go - or at least that may have been the original issue).
    -Christianity tended to associate them with the devil, so the local Christians may have been (intentional or not) warping the nisse by exposure.
     
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    w4terghost said:
    Because the big scary vikings tend to get killed before they Git Gud?
    Additionally, we know that the more descendants that are named for an ancestor, the more the power of the ancestors spirit splits.

    Edit: Regarding the Nisse (sometimes referred to as a Tomte), based on internet sources (so, grain of salt):
    -They have "immense strength or are unaffected by human strength".
    -They can usually use magic.
    -They have a deep bond with farm animals, but in particular horses.
    -They tend to be capable of at least a little shape-shifting.

    Regarding the cause for this:
    -They are Traditionalist, who don't like the way things are done at a farm changing (I think Halla's choice to go raiding might be responsible for this attack, as the Nisse thinks if it gives her a thrashing, she won't be able to go - or at least that may have been the original issue).
    -Christianity tended to associate them with the devil, so the local Christians may have been (intentional or not) warping the nisse by exposure.
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    Porridge was spilled specifically at the beginning of this year, which was a problem because it meant that the Nisse has disappeared sometime between the end of the year before and that period of time, since it wasn't there to eat it for that yuletide.

    The 'Event' was apparently inevitable, and it was apparently fine with Halla dunking on bandits and neighbors, but it draws the line at 2v1ing an actual raider? Doesn't make sense.

    No, it's been kidnapped and mutated somehow and turned as a weapon against its previous neighbors.
     
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