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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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Welp, changing vote by phoneposting, less fun than it sounds

[x] Plan Compromise + Verenans
- [x] MAX: Learning: Rituals from the colleges. Mathilde pays gold costs.
- [x] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm
-- [x] Shadowsteed & Clarity, allowing the user to ride all night without sleep
- [x] WEB-MAT: Investigate Gryphon Wood with one or more members of WEB-MAT (JOHANN)
- [x] Personally scrutinize a Waystone as thoroughly as you possibly can.
- [x] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Frost)
- [x] Investigate Alric
- [x] EIC: Try to uncover what's going on in Gryphon's Wood.
- [x] LIBRARY: Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (Verenans)
- [x] SERENITY: Write a paper: Observations of Johann's prosthetic arm (FRESH)
- [x] COIN: The Night Prowler
 
Jreengus said:
@Boney What would the results of voting to approach the Verenans look like? Would it be Mathilde approaching one of their libraries for a copy rights agreement? Trying to recruit some librarians? A subvote to decide on Mathildes approach/priorities?
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As the person that put up the idea.

I'm sure it's only copy right, but it opens a door for something else in the future.

It's the start of making connections
 
[X] Plan Compromise + Verenans

Well I'll throw in a variant of this that I'd prefer as well.

[X] Plan Compromise + Verenans + Gambler
-[X] MAX: Learning: Rituals from the colleges. Mathilde pays gold costs.
-[X] EGRIMM: Attempt a Windherder enchantment with Egrimm
--[X] Shadowsteed & Clarity, allowing the user to ride all night without sleep
-[X] WEB-MAT: Investigate Gryphon Wood with one or more members of WEB-MAT (Johann)
-[X] Personally scrutinize a Waystone as thoroughly as you possibly can.
-[X] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Frost)
-[X] Investigate Alric
-[X] EIC: Try to uncover what's going on in Gryphon's Wood.
-[X] LIBRARY: Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (Verenans)
-[X] SERENITY: Write a paper: Observations of Johann's prosthetic arm (FRESH)
-[X] COIN: The Gambler: Personally scrutinize a Waystone
 
Hmmm, I do not like someone just going "oh, I changed my mind and now Im gonna change the mind of 40 people without telling them." it feels wrong to me...

[X] Plan Compromise + Verenans
 
Since the library has become central to the debate I thought why not take a look at it and see if there is indeed an argument to be made about it being small or for that matter large as well as what unique lore we might have to share. I will be adding a total cost assuming the stuff on there would even be buy-able, which a lot of t isn't , but just as a ballpark.

PUBLIC

Civilized Realms
The Empire of Man +7 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
The Eonir of Laurelorn +15 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive and Esoteric Dwarven / Extensive and Esoteric Eonir
The Karaz Ankor +12 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive and Esoteric Dwarven
The Kingdom of Kislev +9 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive and Antiquarian Dwarven
The Ten Kingdoms of Ulthuan +2 - Extensive Dwarven
The We +1 - Imperial

Comment: All the high level dwarf books are likely to be doubly rare outside of the Karaz Ankor, the cult of Sigmar might have copies, but they do not really have much reason to give out books to Verenans. Also notable in this section the only book on the We in existence.

Price: +45*50 = 2250 Gold

Sciences and Arts
Agriculture +2 - Extensive Dwarven
Anatomy +9 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive Dwarven
Architecture +2 - Extensive Dwarven
Chemistry +2 - Extensive Dwarven
Engineering +14 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive Dwarven / Extensive and Esoteric Skaven (T)
Geography +2 - Extensive Dwarven
Linguistics +11 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive and Antiquarian Dwarven
Textiles +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Eonir
Trade +7 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Dwarven

Comment: Again Dwarf things, see above for what their worth might be, but also Ennir books which cannot be found outside of the remote woodland realm that is not open to any Verenans normally. There is also translated Skaven lore that we probably are not going to be loaning out but which any Verenan Scholars can travel here to read

Price: 54*50 = 2700 Gold

Geography
Cathay +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Cathayan (T)
The Chaos Wastes +8 - Extensive and Antiquarian Imperial / Extensive and Antiquarian Dwarven
The Dark Lands +7 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Dragon Isles +1 - Dwarven
The Great Steppes +4 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Mountains of Mourn +3 - Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
The Old World +2 - Extensive Dwarven

Comment: This has translated texts on Cathay in Geography, up to the max, that is some rare and esoteric books right there. I am not sure it would all be unique to the Cult of Verena in its entirety, but parts of it may well be

Price: 30*50 = 1500 Gold

Flora and Fauna
Arthropods +7 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Canines +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial
Dragons +8 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive and Antiquarian Dwarven
Rodents and Mustelids +5 - Imperial / Extensive and Antiquarian Skaven
Natural Toxins +7 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Dwarven

Comment: Nothing novel here, other than the Skaven lore on rats, which I imagine would be generally more justifiable to release if we do so carefully then their engineering.

Price: 32*50 = 1600 Gold

War and Combat
Greatswords +7 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Brettonian
Logistics +1 - Skaven
Tactics +1 - Skaven

Comment: Verenans do fight with swords when theydo fight so this might be of some note, we did get it all the way to esoteric on two categories

Price: 9*50 = 450 Gold

Gods and Divinity - Old World Pantheon
Ulric, God of Winter and Wolves +2 - Extensive Imperial
Morr, God of Death and Dreams +2 - Extensive Imperial
Ranald, God of Trickery and Thieves +7 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian
Minor Gods of the Empire +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial

Comment: Likely to be of the least interest, this is all things you can buy openly in the markets of the old world and would probably have fallen into their hands sooner or later.

Price: 16*50 = 800 Gold

Gods and Divinity - Dwarven Ancestor Gods
Grungni +1 - Dwarven
Valaya +1 - Dwarven
Grimnir +1 - Dwarven
Thungni +1 - Dwarven
Smednir +1 - Dwarven
Morgrim +1 - Dwarven
Gazul +1 - Dwarven

Comment: Dwarf Gods are more obscure than human gods, but this is just a +1 across the board, not likely to be that impactful

Price: 7*50 = 350 Gold

COLLEGIATE

Magical Theory
Aethyr - The Warp +2 - Extensive
Sevir - The Winds of Magic +7 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Qhaysh - High Magic +2 - Extensive Imperial
Ghyran - Life Magic +2 - Extensive Imperial
Shyish - Death Magic +2 - Extensive Imperial
Ghur - Beast Magic +2 - Extensive Imperial
Chamon - Metal Magic +2 - Extensive Imperial
Aqshy - Fire Magic +2 - Extensive Imperial
Azyr - Celestial Magic +2 - Extensive Imperial
Hysh - Light Magic +2 - Extensive Imperial
Ulgu - Shadow Magic +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial
Divine Magic +4 - Extensive and Antiquarian Imperial
Enchantment +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial
Familiars +2 - Extensive Imperial

Comment: I cannot imagine any Verenan library having something as obscure as Esoteric dwarf books on the Winds of Magic. I imagine the reaction of most of their scholars would be 'wait that is a thing?' The rest of the stuff is more high quality information on magic, the kind of stuff you get at the colleges... if you are a wizard.

Price: 41*50 = 2050 Gold

Enemies of Man
Beastmen +6 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive and Antiquarian Dwarven
Chaos Dwarves +8 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive and Esoteric Dwarven / Skaven (Only Esoteric)
Daemons +4 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Greenskins +9 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive Dwarven
Hobgoblin Khanates +4 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Marauder Tribes +4 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Ogre Kingdoms +4 - Imperial / Extensive and Obscure Dwarven
Skaven +13 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive and Esoteric Dwarven / Skaven
Undead +7 - Extensive and Obscure Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive Dwarven
Vampires +6 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive Dwarven

Comment: Information on some really obscure subjects, including the work of one... peculiar scholar. Also a lot of Skaven information that we can only hand out with the most care, but well the Conspiracy of Silence does not extend to the realm of King Belegar.

Price: 65*50 = 3250

Gods and Divinity - Cadai and Cytherai
Hekarti, the Hydra Queen +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Eonir
Loec, the Shadow Dancer +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Eonir

Comment: Literally cannot be found in human lands, you either get it from us or you hire someone to rob the wood elves

Price: 10*50 = 500 gold

RESTRICTED

Dark Magic
Chaos Sorcery +4 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Necromancy +2 - Extensive Imperial
Waaagh Magic +4 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Skaven Warp Magic +4 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Warpstone +9 - Extensive Dwarven & Imperial / Extensive and Esoteric Skaven

Comment: On the one hand I am quite sure they do not have all this... on the other I am not sure we want to share it, like with anyone we do not trust implicitly. Adding this in for completeness sake

Price: 23*50 = 1150 Gold

Advanced Magic
Rune Magic +2 - Extensive Imperial
Power Stones +2 - Extensive Imperial
Waystones and Henges +10 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive and Esoteric Dwarven

Comment: Really obscure, though not perhaps o great interest

Price: 14*50 = 700 Gold

Total Price: 15050 Gold*

*Assuming you could buy all this stuff.

Conclusion: I think that might be about a decade of Stirland's budget in books... something tells me the Verenants will want to deal. :V
 
I'm going to speak up in defense of Redshirt's intent, though the execution could have been better.

Many of our half-actions or free actions are extremely minor details on a turn- by-turn basis, such that I think it's meaningfully the same plan whether you swap out the library action or the Serenity action or whatever. In contrast, for this particular plan, the EIC action is relevant because it's in direct support of the plan's thesis, so I feel swapping it out would be out of bounds. For this reason I tend to support somewhat descriptive plan names and a quick overview in the proposal post about what the planmaker feels the plan's thesis is. I do think, though, that the way Derpmind handled it for her own plan was better:
Derpmind said:
I want to switch Max's action in my plan to learning rituals. If I haven't heard much/any pushback against this in about the next 12 hours, I'm going to make that change. And if lots of people support the change, I'll make it sooner just to get things moving.
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Explicit statement of "I will change X to Y after period Z" seems appropriate. Voting periods these days tend to be multiple days, so it isn't that likely to backfire and have the vote closed on you at this early point.

All that said, in the interest of full disclosure I should make it clear that I have a strong horse in the race. The most high-profile example of editing a winning plan mid-vote in this quest is something I did during the Battle of the Caldera, because Deathbybunnies had proposed a really good idea (using our Rangers to cut enemy lines of communication) late in the voting period. Back then, the vote tended to close right at the 24 hour mark, so I didn't feel there was time for a variant to succeed. I stand by that decision, even though there was at least one person greatly upset by it, but it means I don't have any stones to throw here and now.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Comment: I cannot imagine any Verenan library having something as obscure as Esoteric dwarf books on the Winds of Magic. I imagine the reaction of most of their scholars would be 'wait that is a thing?' The rest of the stuff is more high quality information on magic, the kind of stuff you get at the colleges... if you are a wizard.
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The imperial books on magic they'd either already have, or they aren't cleared for it.
The dwarf book would blow some minds though
 
picklepikkl said:
I'm going to speak up in defense of Redshirt's intent, though the execution could have been better.

Many of our half-actions or free actions are extremely minor details on a turn- by-turn basis, such that I think it's meaningfully the same plan whether you swap out the library action or the Serenity action or whatever. In contrast, for this particular plan, the EIC action is relevant because it's in direct support of the plan's thesis, so I feel swapping it out would be out of bounds. For this reason I tend to support somewhat descriptive plan names and a quick overview in the proposal post about what the planmaker feels the plan's thesis is. I do think, though, that the way Derpmind handled it for her own plan was better:

Explicit statement of "I will change X to Y after period Z" seems appropriate. Voting periods these days tend to be multiple days, so it isn't that likely to backfire and have the vote closed on you at this early point.

All that said, in the interest of full disclosure I should make it clear that I have a strong horse in the race. The most high-profile example of editing a winning plan mid-vote in this quest is something I did during the Battle of the Caldera, because Deathbybunnies had proposed a really good idea (using our Rangers to cut enemy lines of communication) late in the voting period. Back then, the vote tended to close right at the 24 hour mark, so I didn't feel there was time for a variant to succeed. I stand by that decision, even though there was at least one person greatly upset by it, but it means I don't have any stones to throw here and now.
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As far as Redshirt's changing of the vote goes, I'll also speak up for him in that he said outright that he was considering revising bits of the vote he considered to be non-core issues, and did so right when he first laid down the vote. Perhaps said warning of change was much less well defined in implication and timeframe than Dermind's alterations, yes, but I feel like a degree of confusion is, though not ideal, certainly forgivable; Redshirt's word choice made it clear he didn't actually have a concrete idea of what he would change and how to finalize things in mind at the time, and so could not explain what or when it would be.
 
The Phoenixian said:
As far as Redshirt's changing of the vote goes, I'll also speak up for him in that he said outright that he was considering revising bits of the vote he considered to be non-core issues, and did so right when he first laid down the vote. Perhaps said warning of change was much less well defined in implication and timeframe than Dermind's alterations, yes, but I feel like a degree of confusion is, though not ideal, certainly forgivable; Redshirt's word choice made it clear he didn't actually have a concrete idea of what he would change and how to finalize things in mind at the time, and so could not explain what or when it would be.
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... That's a bad excuse. So I should just post a "might change shit later, don't know yet."at the end of any of my plans and that let's me do whatever? If that's acceptable then I honestly could not vote for any plan that includes any variation of something like that...
 
DragonParadox said:
Since the library has become central to the debate I thought why not take a look at it and see if there is indeed an argument to be made about it being small or for that matter large as well as what unique lore we might have to share. I will be adding a total cost assuming the stuff on there would even be buy-able, which a lot of t isn't , but just as a ballpark.

PUBLIC

Civilized Realms
The Empire of Man +7 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
The Eonir of Laurelorn +15 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive and Esoteric Dwarven / Extensive and Esoteric Eonir
The Karaz Ankor +12 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive and Esoteric Dwarven
The Kingdom of Kislev +9 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive and Antiquarian Dwarven
The Ten Kingdoms of Ulthuan +2 - Extensive Dwarven
The We +1 - Imperial

Comment: All the high level dwarf books are likely to be doubly rare outside of the Karaz Ankor, the cult of Sigmar might have copies, but they do not really have much reason to give out books to Verenans. Also notable in this section the only book on the We in existence.

Price: +45*50 = 2250 Gold

Sciences and Arts
Agriculture +2 - Extensive Dwarven
Anatomy +9 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive Dwarven
Architecture +2 - Extensive Dwarven
Chemistry +2 - Extensive Dwarven
Engineering +14 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive Dwarven / Extensive and Esoteric Skaven (T)
Geography +2 - Extensive Dwarven
Linguistics +11 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive and Antiquarian Dwarven
Textiles +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Eonir
Trade +7 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Dwarven

Comment: Again Dwarf things, see above for what their worth might be, but also Ennir books which cannot be found outside of the remote woodland realm that is not open to any Verenans normally. There is also translated Skaven lore that we probably are not going to be loaning out but which any Verenan Scholars can travel here to read

Price: 54*50 = 2700 Gold

Geography
Cathay +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Cathayan (T)
The Chaos Wastes +8 - Extensive and Antiquarian Imperial / Extensive and Antiquarian Dwarven
The Dark Lands +7 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Dragon Isles +1 - Dwarven
The Great Steppes +4 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Mountains of Mourn +3 - Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
The Old World +2 - Extensive Dwarven

Comment: This has translated texts on Cathay in Geography, up to the max, that is some rare and esoteric books right there. I am not sure it would all be unique to the Cult of Verena in its entirety, but parts of it may well be

Price: 30*50 = 1500 Gold

Flora and Fauna
Arthropods +7 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Canines +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial
Dragons +8 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive and Antiquarian Dwarven
Rodents and Mustelids +5 - Imperial / Extensive and Antiquarian Skaven
Natural Toxins +7 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Dwarven

Comment: Nothing novel here, other than the Skaven lore on rats, which I imagine would be generally more justifiable to release if we do so carefully then their engineering.

Price: 32*50 = 1600 Gold

War and Combat
Greatswords +7 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Brettonian
Logistics +1 - Skaven
Tactics +1 - Skaven

Comment: Verenans do fight with swords when theydo fight so this might be of some note, we did get it all the way to esoteric on two categories

Price: 9*50 = 450 Gold

Gods and Divinity - Old World Pantheon
Ulric, God of Winter and Wolves +2 - Extensive Imperial
Morr, God of Death and Dreams +2 - Extensive Imperial
Ranald, God of Trickery and Thieves +7 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian
Minor Gods of the Empire +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial

Comment: Likely to be of the least interest, this is all things you can buy openly in the markets of the old world and would probably have fallen into their hands sooner or later.

Price: 16*50 = 800 Gold

Gods and Divinity - Dwarven Ancestor Gods
Grungni +1 - Dwarven
Valaya +1 - Dwarven
Grimnir +1 - Dwarven
Thungni +1 - Dwarven
Smednir +1 - Dwarven
Morgrim +1 - Dwarven
Gazul +1 - Dwarven

Comment: Dwarf Gods are more obscure than human gods, but this is just a +1 across the board, not likely to be that impactful

Price: 7*50 = 350 Gold

COLLEGIATE

Magical Theory
Aethyr - The Warp +2 - Extensive
Sevir - The Winds of Magic +7 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Qhaysh - High Magic +2 - Extensive Imperial
Ghyran - Life Magic +2 - Extensive Imperial
Shyish - Death Magic +2 - Extensive Imperial
Ghur - Beast Magic +2 - Extensive Imperial
Chamon - Metal Magic +2 - Extensive Imperial
Aqshy - Fire Magic +2 - Extensive Imperial
Azyr - Celestial Magic +2 - Extensive Imperial
Hysh - Light Magic +2 - Extensive Imperial
Ulgu - Shadow Magic +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial
Divine Magic +4 - Extensive and Antiquarian Imperial
Enchantment +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial
Familiars +2 - Extensive Imperial

Comment: I cannot imagine any Verenan library having something as obscure as Esoteric dwarf books on the Winds of Magic. I imagine the reaction of most of their scholars would be 'wait that is a thing?' The rest of the stuff is more high quality information on magic, the kind of stuff you get at the colleges... if you are a wizard.

Price: 41*50 = 2050 Gold

Enemies of Man
Beastmen +6 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive and Antiquarian Dwarven
Chaos Dwarves +8 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive and Esoteric Dwarven / Skaven (Only Esoteric)
Daemons +4 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Greenskins +9 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive Dwarven
Hobgoblin Khanates +4 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Marauder Tribes +4 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Ogre Kingdoms +4 - Imperial / Extensive and Obscure Dwarven
Skaven +13 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive and Esoteric Dwarven / Skaven
Undead +7 - Extensive and Obscure Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive Dwarven
Vampires +6 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Bretonnian / Extensive Dwarven

Comment: Information on some really obscure subjects, including the work of one... peculiar scholar. Also a lot of Skaven information that we can only hand out with the most care, but well the Conspiracy of Silence does not extend to the realm of King Belegar.

Price: 65*50 = 3250

Gods and Divinity - Cadai and Cytherai
Hekarti, the Hydra Queen +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Eonir
Loec, the Shadow Dancer +5 - Extensive and Esoteric Eonir

Comment: Literally cannot be found in human lands, you either get it from us or you hire someone to rob the wood elves

Price: 10*50 = 500 gold

RESTRICTED

Dark Magic
Chaos Sorcery +4 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Necromancy +2 - Extensive Imperial
Waaagh Magic +4 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Skaven Warp Magic +4 - Extensive Imperial / Extensive Dwarven
Warpstone +9 - Extensive Dwarven & Imperial / Extensive and Esoteric Skaven

Comment: On the one hand I am quite sure they do not have all this... on the other I am not sure we want to share it, like with anyone we do not trust implicitly. Adding this in for completeness sake

Price: 23*50 = 1150 Gold

Advanced Magic
Rune Magic +2 - Extensive Imperial
Power Stones +2 - Extensive Imperial
Waystones and Henges +10 - Extensive and Esoteric Imperial / Extensive and Esoteric Dwarven

Comment: Really obscure, though not perhaps o great interest

Price: 14*50 = 700 Gold

Total Price: 15050 Gold*

*Assuming you could buy all this stuff.

Conclusion: I think that might be about a decade of Stirland's budget in books... something tells me the Verenants will want to deal. :V
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added from the 'organisations' page:

Notable Tomes: (the RPG McGuffin books that a GM would send a party to K8Ps to get a read of for a clue in their current story. etc. the books to travel to K8P for.)

Liber Mortis, by Baron Frederick van Hal of Sylvania and Prince Vladimir of Khemri (Holograph)
- every Necromancer in the old world, good thing no one knows about it.

A Modest Treatise on the Nature of Magic, by Magister Patriarch Gotthilf Puchta of the Gold Order
- Wizards/journeymen/the odd damsel working in the south (Border princes, K8PS, Tilla, parts of Knightland etc) that are working on something that needs a bit of high end, nitty-gritty, general magic theory.

Rakilid un Thaggorhun / Queekish (Holographs)
- everyone that's fighting Skaven: Witch-hunters, Knight orders, Thanes, Cults etc etc the list goes on.

The Loathsome Chaos Dwarves and All Their Vile Kin, by Quirin Waramunt (Holograph)
- same as the above

Anatomy of the Fire Dwarves of Zharr-Naggrund, in the original Queekish
-....

ok: Victor Saltzpyre and his like would be in and out of the doors non-stop.

I wonder if Mathy realises that currently, the Tempers of Sigmar and their crews would be the empire group that would get the most use out of her collection.

Spectivele? : the only collection of Elve texts on Cadai and Cytherai in human access (when we get all of them)
- scholars, diplomats and all the theologians.
 
Clearly there's been some massive pushback against the change I made, for which I apologize - I clearly misread the room when I made it.

Since there hasn't been anything like a similar outpouring of support for Quinsberry in return, I suspect that the Verenan version of the vote is the one that more accurately reflects the opinions of the thread.

I would change my vote back, but well, that's rather what caused this mess in the first place, and besides, I already said I wouldn't make any further changes.

I will add in my own vote in support of both:

[X] Plan Compromise
[X] Plan Compromise + Verenans
 
Redshirt Army said:
Clearly there's been some massive pushback against the change I made, for which I apologize - I clearly misread the room when I made it.

Since there hasn't been anything like a similar outpouring of support for Quinsberry in return, I suspect that the Verenan version of the vote is the one that more accurately reflects the opinions of the thread.

I would change my vote back, but well, that's rather what caused this mess in the first place, and besides, I already said I wouldn't make any further changes.

I will add in my own vote in support of both:

[X] Plan Compromise
[X] Plan Compromise + Verenans
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As one of the people slightly cheesed off at the change, I don't think you should worry to much, thread history sorta supports modifying plans with out making variants granted back then voting periods were much shorter but it's a difficult thing to judge, I certainly don't think you were being malicious or trying to trick people in any kind of way.
 
DragonParadox said:
I do not think Mathilde would know it though, she might be able to deduce 'of Khemri' from general lore, but she would only know him by the name he gave Vanhells.
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She knows his real name:
Boney said:
But while all of that is true, a significant underpinning truth is that so many of the insights you've garnered from those opportunities owe a huge debt of gratitude to two very unapproved individuals: Baron Frederick Van Hal and Vashanesh, better known to history as the Necromancer Vanhel and the Vampire and later Count Vlad von Carstein.
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It's not clear how she knows his real name, but given that Algard demonstrates casual knowledge of the history of vampirism:
Boney said:
Algard opens the book, and begins to scowl after skimming a few pages. "Oh fuck you, W'soran. You and your entire damned bloodline. You sure you got this one?"
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I would guess that the Grey Order just knows this stuff and people who are paying attention pick it up.
 
I think one thing that annoyed people about the change (it certainly annoyed me) is that when I found a plan I like I vote for that and then don't check the thread religiously for if the author of the plan changes something. I only noticed here because I was already discussing things about pros and cons for quinsberry. So some might only find out the plan changed with the next update. And yes, it's a minor change over the library but people assign their own importance to things (I for one am a firm proponent of getting Mathilde and Max to learn to fly the gyrocopter).
 
Redshirt Army said:
Clearly there's been some massive pushback against the change I made, for which I apologize - I clearly misread the room when I made it.

Since there hasn't been anything like a similar outpouring of support for Quinsberry in return, I suspect that the Verenan version of the vote is the one that more accurately reflects the opinions of the thread.

I would change my vote back, but well, that's rather what caused this mess in the first place, and besides, I already said I wouldn't make any further changes.

I will add in my own vote in support of both:

[X] Plan Compromise
[X] Plan Compromise + Verenans
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Personal opinion here, I think in some ways it stood out more because it was a minor change.

To explain, in general I can easily see a situation where, in a fast moving thread, someone points out a major issue they've just spotted. Say it's a war turn and this issue means that continuing with the current plan could result in extremely negative outcomes for the quest characters. If it is close to a vote lock, it could well be argued that a major emergency change needs to be made. Especially if there are a large number of people who won't see the new information because they only visit the thread once an update pings.

By contrast, minor issues are minor. It isn't likely to cause significant negative outcomes next update, so it's probably better to create a variant.

On the other note, in this specific situation I have to admit that my personal reaction was also "Who the heck are Quinsbury?" and after I read @Swantree 's helpful collation of the discussion I was still asking "But who the heck are Quinsbury?" except I'm even less enlightened because they are apparently distinct from the Quinsbury lodge , who I at least know of from Mopman's Omake.

Also, what @Tobtorp said.
 
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picklepikkl said:
I'm going to speak up in defense of Redshirt's intent, though the execution could have been better.

Many of our half-actions or free actions are extremely minor details on a turn- by-turn basis, such that I think it's meaningfully the same plan whether you swap out the library action or the Serenity action or whatever. In contrast, for this particular plan, the EIC action is relevant because it's in direct support of the plan's thesis, so I feel swapping it out would be out of bounds. For this reason I tend to support somewhat descriptive plan names and a quick overview in the proposal post about what the planmaker feels the plan's thesis is. I do think, though, that the way Derpmind handled it for her own plan was better:

Explicit statement of "I will change X to Y after period Z" seems appropriate. Voting periods these days tend to be multiple days, so it isn't that likely to backfire and have the vote closed on you at this early point.

All that said, in the interest of full disclosure I should make it clear that I have a strong horse in the race. The most high-profile example of editing a winning plan mid-vote in this quest is something I did during the Battle of the Caldera, because Deathbybunnies had proposed a really good idea (using our Rangers to cut enemy lines of communication) late in the voting period. Back then, the vote tended to close right at the 24 hour mark, so I didn't feel there was time for a variant to succeed. I stand by that decision, even though there was at least one person greatly upset by it, but it means I don't have any stones to throw here and now.
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I'm not going to manage following the discussion over the holidays. But I feel like chiming in on this.

In my opinion there's two different reasons to edit a plan after people already voted for it.
One is because the plan maker thought of or was made aware of some new idea or information which, had they known beforehand, they had included it in their plan from the get go, because at least in their opinion it's a straight improvement. As long as the voting period isn't too close to the deadline I think that that should be allowed. I even think that it should be allowed close to the deadline if it is something really uncontroversial and related to a mistake or new QM info.
The other is when someone swaps around a part of their plan that they themselves deem unimportant in order to attract the votes of those that do care. That's more iffy. It's okay if done early in before the plan in question gets more than a couple of votes. But otherwise problems arise.
 
I lack strong opinions about the library action, I'm just happy we're doing the Rituals class; for a long time I'd more or less accepted that as my white whale here, like Omegahugger and their thirst for Abelhelm.

Now all I need is for Potions to look like they could be relevant to our project, and Mathilde will have a solid grounding in every available magical discipline!

...I might be waiting a bit longer on that one.

[x] Plan Starting up debt free
[x] Plan Compromise
[x] Plan Compromise + Verenans
 
Humbaba said:
On the other note, in this specific situation I have to admit that my personal reaction was also "Who the heck are Quinsbury?" and after I read @Swantree 's helpful collation of the discussion I was still asking "But who the heck are Quinsbury?" except I'm even less enlightened because they are apparently distinct from the Quinsbury lodge , who I at least know of from Mopman's Omake.
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Quinsberry is the Halfling god of knowledge, and the proposal came from @Jreengus here:

Jreengus said:
Any chance of switching this to Quinsberry? We have more to offer his cultists than we do the Verenans and as smaller cult our bargaining position is stronger to begin with. I genuinely think we stand to gain more from the cult of Quinsberry and if we can get them fully on board we can leverage that bring in more cults in a case of "Well the Quinsberrians have got in on the ground floor, you don't want to be caught out in the cold do you?"
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Jreengus said:
Actually that's a good point I haven't considered. @Boney since it's 4th edition is the library containing the bloodline records cannon?
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Boney said:
Yes, that seems reasonable. Halflings have run a state bureaucracy for about fifteen centuries, they would have had to start keeping written records at some point.
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Jreengus said:
Andres said:
I've tried to look back at the previous discussion but I'm a little lost. Why are we going with Quinsberry instead of Verena?
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There is a library in the Moot dedicated to Quinsberry that contains records of all the halfling bloodlines. We can offer to store copies inside KAU along with helping with recording the halfling population now living in Eight Peaks as a bargaining chip with the Quinsberry Cult, something we don't really have for the Verenans.
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