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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Codex said:
That is true, but some of those combinations I did like. Lore of the Wild with Beasts and Shadow seemed to fit to me, Chaos with Heaven seemed an interesting concept, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch hit the right notes. Nehekhara made sense since those are the Lores they had access to and it fit their harmonisation and death themes, and I suppose Metal can fit into Vampires if you think of Metal like "the Programming Wind" where you set logic chains and "if then" statements into your zombies so they can actually function.

Some are harder to justify. Maw and Beasts sounds like a good fit, but I feel like I'm reaching to explain how Heaven ties into it. Fire makes sense with Waaagh, but Heavens is yet again an odd inclusion. Skaven Lores fit as an inversion of Life, but I feel like Heavens fits Ruin better than Fire. I'm also a bit confused at Life and Light being in Dark Magic and Death being in High Magic.

Although I suppose you might be taking more of an objection over what they chose to not include rather than what they chose to include, in which case the absence of some connections would be a bigger deal.
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I like it as an interesting attempt to make game mechanics that work with the existing lore as much as possible, but in my experience, any attempt to treat it as new lore would require reworking the entire metaphysics of the setting around it.
 
K von Carstein said:
Isn't there a legend saying that the Great Maw was created after Cathayan astromancers made a big comet fall to destroy the Ogres?
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It's been confirmed by the head writer for TW: Warahammer 3 with the new Cathay lore that the Dragon Emperor definitely called down that meteor with his coven of Astromancers, but it's heavily implied that he did not intend to create the Maw (and some cheeky hints that it may have been Tzeentch who did it of course).

It doesn't matter, I forgot my own post after posting it somehow. It's Beasts and Light for Great Maw, not Beasts and Heaven.
 
One objection I have for grief/trauma is that they admit a possible weakness in a direct manner that is just moderate enough to peak interest.

I now imagine Starke being surprised that Mathilde had directly admitted a small weakness, and paranoidly considering if she told a lesser justification to smokescreen a worse reason.

which, you know, fair.

The reasonable order indeed.

Also possible he already know about Mathy being a ranaldine, and is just giving her a choice of what excuse to present to the outside world.

Edit: rethinking choice under the optics of choosing what story Strake will tell the wider world if need be, kind of hoping we could have just said Skaven with an understanding wink and smirk.
 
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Codex said:
It's been confirmed by the head writer for TW: Warahammer 3 with the new Cathay lore that the Dragon Emperor definitely called down that meteor with his coven of Astromancers, but it's heavily implied that he did not intend to create the Maw (and some cheeky hints that it may have been Tzeentch who did it of course).
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Conspiracy time: I doubt the Dragon Emperor could mess up a spell badly enough to create the Grand Maw even with Tzeentch interfering, if he's that fallible how is Cathay even still standing? So what if the Grand Maw was already there and all Tzeentch did was nudge the meteor so it hit the right spot to unearth it.
 
Jreengus said:
Conspiracy time: I doubt the Dragon Emperor could mess up a spell badly enough to create the Grand Maw even with Tzeentch interfering, if he's that fallible how is Cathay even still standing? So what if the Grand Maw was already there and all Tzeentch did was nudge the meteor so it hit the right spot to unearth it.
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I mean, that was my working theory. The Emperor's spell was focused on summoning a gigantic meteor, I doubt he specified which meteor he wanted. He probably expected some random asteroid plucked out of orbit from outer space, and Tzeentch twisted fate just enough that instead of a normal asteroid, the magic was redirected to a giant chunk of warpstone so powerful it had a primeval awareness of itself.

EDIT: Ah wait, you're saying that the Maw was on the piece of land struck by the meteor? I don't think that's the case. The Maw has been described as the giant warpstone meteor that hit the earth. It even penetrated all the way across the planet to create another Maw at sea that people speculate is Galleon's Graveyard, a titanic malestorm. The Great Anus if you were so inclined to call it that.
 
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Codex said:
EDIT: Ah wait, you're saying that the Maw was on the piece of land struck by the meteor? I don't think that's the case. The Maw has been described as the giant warpstone meteor that hit the earth. It even penetrated all the way across the planet to create another Maw at sea that people speculate is Galleon's Graveyard, a titanic malestorm. The Great Anus if you were so inclined to call it that.
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Earth's diameter is 12 742 km. That just a single asteroid (even made of warpstone) could create a tunnel that long through the planet's core is a bit ridiculous. Even if it doesn't go « perpendicularly » to the surface, I find that widely implausible, especially if thé tectonics plates move.
 
K von Carstein said:
Earth's diameter is 12 742 km. That just a single asteroid (even made of warpstone) could create a tunnel that long through the planet's core is a bit ridiculous. Even if it doesn't go « perpendicularly » to the surface, I find that widely implausible, especially if thé tectonics plates move.
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I don't know what to tell you.

"C. 2748 IC Maelstorm in the Sea: The warpstone comet finally burrows its way through the world, emerging in the opposite hemisphere and causing the ocean there to boil. Few who see it live to tell the tale." Ogre Kingdoms 8th Edition Page 22. 2748 IC is two years after the Maw hits the planet.

I'm just the messenger, not the creator of this lore.
 
Codex said:
"C. 2748 IC Maelstorm in the Sea: The warpstone comet finally burrows its way through the world, emerging in the opposite hemisphere and causing the ocean there to boil. Few who see it live to tell the tale." Ogre Kingdoms 8th Edition Page 22. 2748 IC is two years after the Maw hits the planet.
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I'd heard about the maelstrom but I thought it existed before the Maw, I guess if it was created by the same spell as the maw re targeting which asteroid was grabbed makes more sense than the maw having been there beforehand.
 
I will say that I do like that they confirmed the Dragon Emperor was, albeit indirectly, the reason for the creation of the Great Maw, because it's a mistake. Not only is it a mistake, it is possibly one of the most impactful mistakes that any currently living person in the Warhammer World has to contend with. The Dragon Emperor wanted to teach the Ogres a lesson with a show of power because they were eating his countrymen, so he summoned an entire coven of Astromancers and used his immense powers to attempt to destroy them. And he succeeded in a great way, because he almost caused their entire extinction and caused them to bugger off into the Mountains away from Cathay.

But the consequences. Oh the consequences. Through his actions, the Emperor irrevocably altered the western side of his country into a blasted wasteland of death and misery and created a vile god that only further increased the Ogre's cannibalistic tendencies, and through that he has managed to create a butterfly effect of such magnitude that I don't think anyone alive can contend with.

If I were writing the Dragon Emperor, I would play off of that to create inner conflict with him. The Dragon Emperor is very powerful, but with that power comes an equal ability to make absolutely colossal mistakes. A normal soldier making a mistake isn't likely to doom a nation, the Emperor's mistakes can cost millions of lives.

It's an interesting interplay that I can see playing a factor on why the Dragon Emperor is so inactive nowadays, but there's also the Webway project he's working on, so maybe I'm completely off base. It's just fun speculation anyway.
 
Codex said:
I don't know what to tell you.

"C. 2748 IC Maelstorm in the Sea: The warpstone comet finally burrows its way through the world, emerging in the opposite hemisphere and causing the ocean there to boil. Few who see it live to tell the tale." Ogre Kingdoms 8th Edition Page 22. 2748 IC is two years after the Maw hits the planet.

I'm just the messenger, not the creator of this lore.
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I'm not accusing you of anything, I believed you when you said it. I'm simply throwing stones at GW.:V

Boney said:
The magical meteorite from the magical realm of Chaos called down by a magical dragon has no obligation to follow the laws of conventional physics.
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There's not following the laws of physics, and there's that.
 
It took two years for a meteor called the "Great Maw", a deity representing endless, infinite hunger, to eat its way through the planet. And I'm being very careful to use the word "eat" in a less than metaphorical way. I think viewing the meteor that fell down as an object rather than a creature wouldn't be accurate.
 
Exmorri said:
The horse was only domesticated about 5000 years ago and that's already been bred into variations so far apart they're technically species in the sense they can't interbreed, not for genetic reasons, but because they'd need a stepladder during sex if you want a 50cm horse to get it on with a 200cm horse. ;)
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Extremely focused artificial selection through breeding is a very different beast though. Look how fast dog breeds revert to the mean if cross-bred. Many of the more extreme changes are just genes that are still around but shut off.
seekingflame said:
Also possible he already know about Mathy being a ranaldine, and is just giving her a choice of what excuse to present to the outside world.
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I like that write-in that starts with Grief but notes that Skaven is a good fit when seen from the outside. But sadly very very few are voting for it.

In any case, whatever we tell Reiner Starke isn't the thing that he then goes around and proclaims to the masses. It's what he works with when telling people on a need to know basis internally and coaches into more prestigious light before telling to people externally. The Grey Order has a vested interest to let their LMs seem as competent as possible, both because Greys often work as diplomats (and Mathilde finally does too) and because every LM reflects on all the other LMs that promoted her.
 
Boney said:
Yeah, I've played around with trying to read deeper into all that, but it really seems like it was made with only mechanical considerations in mind, not revealing deeper secrets of the underlying metaphysics. They tried their best to make the combinations make as much sense as possible, but they were working within the very tight constraints of having to connect everything to two Winds and having a reasonable spread.
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Agreed, note especially how necromancy is not associated with dark magic but light magic is.
 
So I was going over the latest update to compile moments of Mathilde's paranoia, overthinking, wonderings and musings, because I realised how many times "you wonder" was said in the update (exactly six times to be specific), but then I realised something:
Boney said:
Ah, yes. The Watch you put a professional thief in charge of. The Watch you tried to convert to the worship of Ranald. The Watch you sort of stole the Gong Farmers from. And a saltpeter factory. "Yes, I recall."
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Was this an intentional Kuzco's Poison reference?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcKGw-IO5Uc

With that out of the way, I present a compilation of Mathilde's internal wanderings.
Boney said:
But you're a little worried about how Egrimm might take this meddling in his career, so you rearrange your own schedule so you can be nearby when he is either promoted or passed over to congratulate or commiserate. This will also give you an opportunity to touch base with one of your newest partners in the Waystone Project.
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Worried Mathilde.
Boney said:
You don't doubt that between your involvement in Light Order affairs and her future involvement in your Project, she'd have done some digging into your own background. You wonder how many roadblocks she would have encountered in doing so, and how she would have reacted to them.
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The first wonder, about Elrisse's reaction.
Boney said:
Your meeting is to take place in the Sun Room of Volans, and you wonder if it originally belonged to the Light Order's founder or whether it was merely named for him.
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The second wonder, about the Sun Room.
Boney said:
Considering his history, you wonder if he developed them under Teclis' tutelage, or whether they were a result of his disastrous early experimentations with magic in a long foreshadowing of his future path. You also wonder how he'd feel about the modern strife within his Order.
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The third and fourth wonders, about Volans' eyes and his opinion on the strife in his order.
Boney said:
Inside the room there are a pair of reclining chairs parallel and separated by a few feet in the middle of a sunbeam that appears to come from nowhere in particular. According to your mental map you're too deep within the structure to be receiving direct sunlight, but you suppose moving sunlight around would be a triviality to the Light Order in the heart of their power.
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Minor tangent about sunlight.
Boney said:
"I am told we are to work together," she says, "in exchange for services performed for the good of the Order of Light. I am leery of a Grey Wizard having a part in our internal politics, but you have been vouched for at the highest levels."

"I am honoured by their trust in me," you say, wondering precisely which highest levels she's been talking to.
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The fifth wonder, about how high up the chain she got an endorsement from.
Boney said:
You consider both her and your reply. She makes all the proper expressions and replies one does in conversation, but there's a moment of blank concentration before each, as though she has to take a moment to conceive of the right reply. You wonder if this is a mark left by Hysh she is attempting to work around, or a more personal idiosyncrasy
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The sixth wonder, this time about Elrisse's mannerisms. The next conversation is with Horstmann, and she wonders no more.
Boney said:
As you're packing your things for your departure from Altdorf, you receive a short note delivered by the Light College's staff from your own Order - specifically, from Lord Magister Reiner Starke, asking for you to drop by his office at your convenience. That he specifies his office instead of a more general meeting indicates it's on the business of his office, and it's rarely a good sign for anyone to receive an unexpected invitation to the Porter's office.

You suppose this was inevitable, you tell yourself after running through the first dozen disastrous scenarios. Getting entangled in the business of other Orders would always mean more eyes on you, and eventually those eyes would find something of some shade of untoward. That you received a polite invitation at a reasonable hour indicates that whatever was turned up wasn't too bad. That rules out the Liber Mortis, the former Empress, and probably the current Empress. That just leaves... well, a lot of things, none of which strictly wrong, but lots that could look bad if stumbled over by someone unused to the shades of grey that your occupation requires. The embezzlement would be the most uncomfortable possibility, you suppose. Oh. No, actually that is a very distant second. The Underwear Incident, that would absolutely be the most uncomfortable. Then there's involvement with various frowned-upon groups - thieves, tricksters, spies, radical sects, merchants. Dubious experimentation that you weren't ever explicitly cleared for. Involvement with foreign magic-users. Encounters with the forces of Chaos...

You suppose the whole Only Mork thing might also be a possibility. But while it is the sort of thing that would raise a great deal of questions, only five other beings know about that and you can't really see any of them gossiping to the rumour mill of the Colleges about it.

Well, you could think yourself in knots for hours going over the possibilities, but the only way to get an answer is to go to the meeting.

You reconsider that last thought, and mentally edit it. The only way to get an answer, excluding methods unacceptably likely to cause even more trouble, is to go to the meeting.
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This entire paranoia session, focused on working through her panic similarly to her first reaction to Thorek's letter.
Boney said:
"The security of the Grey Order is ever my concern," you say as you take a seat across from him. He had called you in as soon as you knocked, which can't be taken as a good or bad sign on its own. It could be good that he's not playing games by making you wait, but it could be bad that this is so important that he's dropped whatever else he was doing.
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Assessing whether the speed of response to her knocks is a good or bad thing.
Boney said:
"That may be overstating my purpose for this meeting. This is a courtesy to you. A counterpart of mine in another Order-" Elrisse, you guess immediately, and then second-guess that. If it was her, she surely could have timed it better to make it less obvious, so perhaps it is the Jade equivalent. Or perhaps Elrisse knew that you'd think that, so she- you remember that Reiner is still talking, and force your attention to return to his words, quickly running through what he has been saying that a corner of your mind had been paying attention to the whole time. "-was doing a routine investigation and came across some irregularities. Do you recall your involvement with the Wurtbad Watch?"
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Full blown detective session in her head while Starke is talking to her.
Boney said:
You take a few breaths as you study the man in front of you. Everything he says makes sense, and he definitely seems to be sincere, but he has the kind of job where one would need to develop an ability to seem sincere on command. So, for the moment, let's assume for the sake of argument that he's being completely honest.
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Mathilde forcing herself to trust the guy in charge of internal security of her Order, who happen to be the secret police of the Empire.

Mathilde's a very fun character.
 
Codex said:
Mathilde forcing herself to trust the guy in charge of internal security of her Order, who happen to be the secret police of the Empire.

Mathilde's a very fun character.
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She is not actually forcing herself to trust him, I do not think she can do that at this point. IMO it's more that she is forcing herself to act as though she trusts him in the moment, for the sake of discovering his no doubt nefarious schemes. :V
 
My thinking for grief is that it is pretty inconsequential secret to tell anyone. The person we were infatuation with is dead and buried for about 20 years, he's also the hero of stirland and his daughter is the other hero of stirland while we are a third hero of stirland. The problem itself (our heavy handed approach to the watch and their religion) was probably solved literally right after we left, so it didn't have much of an impact. And now 20 years later we have Soo much on our resume that people need to specify which Dwarven karak they mean when they say we "saved it".

By Sigmar we managed it that some dwarfs have a favorite magic person! Dwarfs. Have. A. Favorite. Magic. Person.
Like if someone seriously tries to paint us as a bad person they will have to get through annoyed dwarfs to meaningful impact us.
 
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DragonParadox said:
She is not actually forcing herself to trust him, I do not think she can do that at this point. IMO it's more that she is forcing herself to act as though she trusts him in the moment, for the sake of discovering his no doubt nefarious schemes. :V
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It literally says "for the sake of argument". She's doing neither. She's cutting down the hypothesis space by postulating the various possibilities on the off chance that Reiner is being completely sincere and honest. Because the possibilities in case Reiner Starke is somehow deceiving her are to damn many.
Whether she trusts him or acts like she trusts him depends on her next action, which we are voting on.
 
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Tobtorp said:
My thinking for grief is that it is pretty inconsequential secret to tell anyone. The person we were infuriated with is dead and buried for about 20 years, he's also the hero of stirland and his daughter is the other hero of stirland while we are a third hero of stirland.
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The person we were infatuated with. While infuriated is a hilarious typo that could lead to any number of Sigmar is dead/The Grand Theogonist has been a Lahmian for a decade jokes, the follow ups in the sentence don't allow for that.:V
 
consequences said:
The person we were infatuated with. While infuriated is a hilarious typo that could lead to any number of Sigmar is dead/The Grand Theogonist has been a Lahmian for a decade jokes, the follow ups in the sentence don't allow for that.:V
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Ah thank you! English is my second language and I'm normally pretty good at it but sometimes words slip through when I'm not using them often. Will fix it.
 
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