Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Right, done some thinking about apparation and a thought occured to me about what else we could do by binding apparations.

Now hear me out, what if we were to create deamonhosts apparationhosts! I feel like we can create Red Rider flavored Grail Knights for the Empire.
 
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The future room doesn't traumatise people. Those who look on it are forbidden to speak of it, but they're not traumatised by it. And I think it's difficult to make the claim no one ever tries to change it, because I don't think the subject has ever been addressed.

The Flame has a ton of power. It let Aenarion do a bunch of stuff. And as to whether the Flame actually works, there's a difference between "the Flame is faulty" and "the Elves cheat".
Caradryan's personality does a full 180, he never utters a single word ever since he entered the room, and he gave up all his worldly possessions. You could argue that wasn't trauma, but it certainly broke him in a way.

In regards to Aenarion, sure. Show me someone who isn't him who actually benefited from it. Bel Shannar sure didn't seem to benefit from this huge powerup since he died to some poison. You could make the argument that Aenarion is special since certainly no elf since Aenarion got anything other than death and misery from that flame.
 
Right, done some thinking about apparation and it occur to me a thought about what else we could do by binding apparations.

Now here me out, what if we were to create deamonhosts apparationhosts! I feel like we can create Red Rider flavored Grail Knights for the Empire.

A Grail Knight is basically an Daemon Prince of the Lady, a mortal ascended past the usual scope of divine blessings. I do not think something as weak and simple as a Red Rider can stand in for a god. What we could do is try to shove a red rider (which is horse and rider shaped) into a horse and try to make a super horse. It's also a lot easier to sell in a paper than human experimentation.
 
Caradryan's personality does a full 180, he never utters a single word ever since he entered the room, and he gave up all his worldly possessions. You could argue that wasn't trauma, but it certainly broke him in a way.

In regards to Aenarion, sure. Show me someone who isn't him who actually benefited from it. Bel Shannar sure didn't seem to benefit from this huge powerup since he died to some poison. You could make the argument that Aenarion is special since certainly no elf since Aenarion got anything other than death and misery from that flame.
Well yes it did. I imagine suddenly knowing how and why you're going to die is something of a wake-up call for a wastrel such as Caradryan was. That's not 'the room is inherently traumatising', that's 'knowledge of the future can change your perspective'.

You're correct that in the Army Books, very little is said of anything the Phoenix Kings get from the Flame beyond 'being King', but the Flame itself definitely holds power. Even in the Army Books, it's the Flame that allows Tyrion and Teclis to banish N'kari when he attacks them at the Shrine.
 
Well yes it did. I imagine suddenly knowing how and why you're going to die is something of a wake-up call for a wastrel such as Caradryan was. That's not 'the room is inherently traumatising', that's 'knowledge of the future can change your perspective'.
What Caradryan went through wasn't just a change in perspective. He stopped speaking. Completely. Most people don't just suddenly lose their ability to speak becauase of a simple change in perspective.
 
A Grail Knight is basically an Daemon Prince of the Lady, a mortal ascended past the usual scope of divine blessings. I do not think something as weak and simple as a Red Rider can stand in for a god. What we could do is try to shove a red rider (which is horse and rider shaped) into a horse and try to make a super horse. It's also a lot easier to sell in a paper than human experimentation.
Nah, Grail Knights are simply high level champions of their gods. The equivalent would be something like the lieutants of an everchosen, maybe the everchosen himself for something like the Bretonnian King. Grail Knights are still more human than spirit, unlike Daemon Princes.

The Daemon Prince equivalent of the Lady would be something like the Green Knight, assuming the theory that he used to be Giles is accurate. I think for the non-chaos gods, the name for ascended mortals is Divine Servants? There is some ability/spell that calls on people serving their gods after death, I remember it came up in the context of un-deading Abelheim.
 
The Daemon Prince equivalent of the Lady would be something like the Green Knight, assuming the theory that he used to be Giles is accurate. I think for the non-chaos gods, the name for ascended mortals is Divine Servants? There is some ability/spell that calls on people serving their gods after death, I remember it came up in the context of un-deading Abelheim.
Even before the End Times, the Green Knight being Gilles was glaringly obvious and heavily hinted in universe with plenty of in text speculation about it being the case. Ascended mortals are known as Venerated Souls, who are given that titile after death and sometimes worshipped. Some of these Venerated Souls can come back as Divine Servants when summoned by a ritual or a God expends energy to release them on the mortal world, which is quite rare. Not all Divine Servants are Venerated Souls, some are essentially fragments of the god in question, representing some aspect of the god.
 
What Caradryan went through wasn't just a change in perspective. He stopped speaking. Completely. Most people don't just suddenly lose their ability to speak becauase of a simple change in perspective.
He didn't lose the ability. He joined the Phoenix Guard, who, as part of their nature as a religious order, take a vow of silence. It's a thing people have done in real life.
 
A Grail Knight is basically an Daemon Prince of the Lady, a mortal ascended past the usual scope of divine blessings. I do not think something as weak and simple as a Red Rider can stand in for a god. What we could do is try to shove a red rider (which is horse and rider shaped) into a horse and try to make a super horse. It's also a lot easier to sell in a paper than human experimentation.
Not really. Grail Knights are not that powerfull. More to point I am perfectly fine with cut rate Grail Knights.

Using it for a horse is a such waste why would you even ...
 
[X] Yes
[X] Magister Tochter Grunfeld
[X] Belegar, to discuss who has been made Loremaster after you.
[X] Gretel, who's apparently getting involved in the Karaz Ankor's ambitions in the Border Princes.
[X] Egrimm, to celebrate his imminent promotion and gauge his reaction to it.
[X] The Gold College, to see what's become of their research into Skaven technology.
 
Because the first attempt will probably explode or grow tentacles. It's not like we have any experience daemon binding.
Apparation binding! And we will get experience once we take the first apparation action.

I just want to bind some Red Riders to rings they can be used to power themselves up as needed with some spooky shadow aestatic. Like so;


 
He didn't lose the ability. He joined the Phoenix Guard, who, as part of their nature as a religious order, take a vow of silence. It's a thing people have done in real life.
He didn't enter the shrine deciding to become a Pheonix Guard. He entered, came out and never spoke a single word since, even before he officially joined the order. I'm not sure how much of that was an informed decision, and I can't say that I fully trust that everything was done with his full consent. The vibes I get from the whole story is that he literally had no choice but to submit to Asuryan.
 
So... since the vote for socials seems to be locked up (17 vote difference between vote five and vote six) and none of the socials look like they are the sorts to open up new action options directly I wanted to try to mock up a sugestion of a palan for next turn. We are coming up on a free overwork action and we are going to need it given all the commitments we have:

[] Plan One last Prep Turn
-[] MAX: Learning: Enchanting
-[] EGRIMM: Study an artefact: Kurgan Shrine to Mannsleib
-[] JOHANN: Find the monster in the forest of shadows
-[] Coin: Protector
-[] Investigate Alric
-[] Experiment with using Ulgu Tongs on vitae created divine magic
-[] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Timonel)
-[] EIC: Back us up when investigating Alaric
-[] Library: Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (The Cult of Ulric)
-[] Serenity: Windsoak Mushrooms 1/2

Reasoning:
  1. Well he is interested in using magic in forging and this is at least adjacent and once he learns it we can windherd together, he has a more compatible wind that Ergrim and a more complete grasp of the spell list than Johann
  2. I thought about taking him out to deal with either his old boss or whatever is in the Forest of Shadows, but he is rather glow-y and liable to cramp our style IMO. On the other hand he does seem to have an interest in gods so let's put or heads together on this one, it worked a treat last time with the arm
  3. He is great as backup in the fight and not a bad diplomat which makes him doubly good for dealing with this kind of trouble, being a male wizard in Kislev (if we have to jump the border) is a pit of a problem, but not as much when we are there to smooth things over especially as...
  4. We have a chance to earn some rep several times over, maybe even with the hedgefolk and the ice witches
  5. With a bit of luck we can steal his thunder while under the Protector and earn extra favor with Mira, as he is an asshole and we can always use more sway with our fellows that is all the good
  6. Tongs are dead long live the tongs, we know as a matter of fact that Divine/arcane contact does not make Dhar from when we empowered one of Kasimir's spells in the Silvania campaign so the worst that can happen is Ranald tells us not to, the best that can happen is we can now cast spells that make pocket dimensions, influence luck etc...
  7. Well they are pro-outside contact and they worship a godless of magic, that seems like reason enough to go for it to me
  8. I see no reason not to double up on this, though at the same time I do not think we strictly need the help so if people have another idea I'm open to it
  9. I know it seems crazy but they do have books and unlike say the Verenans they have reasons to like us, we can start slow on the cults and build up, just about the only downside is that it would make it harder to get Sigmar, but we are unlikely to get that anyway on account of hating their god's guts
  10. It is potentially really useful and I think we can afford not to make CF for one turn now that we are at 15
Well feel free to tear this apart and have fun guys. :)
 
Main argument I have against is that they're a Father candidate so I'd like to tackle them the turn after with a bunch of other possibilities.

Fair enough, in that case I would probably just put ice witches in there since we are going to be on the border of Kislev anyway and we can hopefully also get some papers about how Johann is not a male ice mage for the adventure in the woods.
 
[] Plan One last Prep Turn
-[] MAX: Learning: Enchanting
-[] EGRIMM: Study an artefact: Kurgan Shrine to Mannsleib
-[] JOHANN: Find the monster in the forest of shadows
-[] Coin: Protector
-[] Investigate Alric
-[] Experiment with using Ulgu Tongs on vitae created divine magic
-[] Attempt to bring a Major House or Ward into the Waystone Project (Timonel)
-[] EIC: Back us up when investigating Alaric
-[] Library: Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (The Cult of Ulric)
-[] Serenity: Windsoak Mushrooms 1/2

This plan seems fine, but I have one issue with it:

-[] Experiment with using Ulgu Tongs on vitae created divine magic

I don't think we can or should do this at all. Tongs is a dead end because it always creates dhar, and we've sacrificed divine vitae. There's nothing to be done or gained here. We'd be better off spending the AP on apparition binding (which I want to do soon), or another AV research option.

Every thing else, however, I'm more or less happy to support. Probably better things we can do with Max than send him on enchanting lessons, but I can't think what they are right now.
 
[X] Yes
[X] Magister Tochter Grunfeld
[X] Egrimm, to celebrate his imminent promotion and gauge his reaction to it.
[X] Cython, to talk obliquely of what it means for a God to have offspring.
[X] Belegar, to discuss who has been made Loremaster after you.
[X] Pay a visit to your fief, to see if anything has changed. It probably hasn't.
[X] Kasmir, to see how partnership with Sylvania's native faith has been going.
 
This plan seems fine, but I have one issue with it:

-[] Experiment with using Ulgu Tongs on vitae created divine magic

I don't think we can or should do this at all. Tongs is a dead end because it always creates dhar, and we've sacrificed divine vitae. There's nothing to be done or gained here. We'd be better off spending the AP on apparition binding (which I want to do soon), or another AV research option.

Every thing else, however, I'm more or less happy to support. Probably better things we can do with Max than send him on enchanting lessons, but I can't think what they are right now.

I asked the GM and he made it clear that this did not fall under the sacrifice, only taking fingerprints does. Here is the quote:

Whether that would be permissible or not is not affected by choosing Faith here and sacrificing the crystal.

As for making Dhar... well as I said in the reasoning Arcane and Divine magic do not make Dhar on contact, this is not some wild theory, it is what Mathilde saw when she and Kasimir briefly combined spells against the Singing King.
 
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[X] Yes
[X] Magister Tochter Grunfeld
[X] Egrimm, to celebrate his imminent promotion and gauge his reaction to it.
[X] Elrisse, to get to know the most recent contributor to the Project.
[X] Cython, to talk obliquely of what it means for a God to have offspring.
[X] Middenland, to see how the Ulricans are going with their new Eonir coreligionists.
[X] Roswita, to get a sense for who will control Sylvania after you turned down the position.
 
[ ] Plan talk before recruit.
-[] MAX: Learning: Enchanting
-[] EGRIMM: Study an artefact: Kurgan Shrine to Mannsleib
-[] JOHANN: Find the monster in the forest of shadows
-[] Coin: Protector
-[] Investigate Alric
-[] Experiment with using Ulgu Tongs on vitae created divine magic
-[] Spend time assisting or ingratiating yourself with someone else: (Timonel)
-[] EIC: Back us up when investigating Alaric
-[] Library: Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (The Cult of Ulric)
-[] Serenity: Windsoak Mushrooms 1/2

Talk before recruit, talk before recruit,talk before recruit, talk before recruit,talk before recruit ,talk before recruit talk before recruit talk beforerecruittalkbeforerecruittalkbeforerecruittalkbeforerecruittalkbeforerecruittalkbeforerecruittalkbefore recruit................
 
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[ ] Plan talk before recruit.
-[] MAX: Learning: Enchanting
-[] EGRIMM: Study an artefact: Kurgan Shrine to Mannsleib
-[] JOHANN: Find the monster in the forest of shadows
-[] Coin: Protector
-[] Investigate Alric
-[] Experiment with using Ulgu Tongs on vitae created divine magic
-[] Spend time assisting or ingratiating yourself with someone else: (Timonel)
-[] EIC: Back us up when investigating Alaric
-[] Library: Seek an agreement with a Cult to have access to their libraries (The Cult of Ulric)
-[] Serenity: Windsoak Mushrooms 1/2

Talk before recruit, talk before recruit,talk before recruit, talk before recruit,talk before recruit ,talk before recruit talk before recruit talk beforerecruittalkbeforerecruittalkbeforerecruittalkbeforerecruittalkbeforerecruittalkbeforerecruittalkbefore recruit................

I mean if we do not want them on board we can just not take the deal. I really do not think any of the houses are worth 2AP just in sheer narrative terms, others may of course be of a different opinion.
 
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