True Dhar usually involves crushing the winds into one screaming unnatural whole, there are no recognizable winds in it. As proof of this you can use it with warpstone that has never been Winds. Necromancy involves using the wind of death to manipulate said unnatural and non-wind magic.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
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True Dhar usually involves crushing the winds into one screaming unnatural whole, there are no recognizable winds in it. As proof of this you can use it with warpstone that has never been Winds. Necromancy involves using the wind of death to manipulate said unnatural and non-wind magic.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
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That's still wind magic though? It's not a different form of energy being manipulated as with Waaagh or divine casting (incidentally I'd classify Elementalism as wind magic too, even though it's non-Teclisean) and unlike Runecraft it doesn't operate on unknown principles. True Dhar and necromancy follow the same rules as using Azyr or Chamon, AFAIK.
It is not, it is the energy of the Aethyr transformed in a distinctly non-Wind way. Teclisian theory has a place for Dhar, but that does not make Dhar wind magic because you can cast it with no Winds involved, same for necromancy.
Also another non-wind magic would be the intrinsic Blood Gift of vampires which are born directly of their souls. I think it is like the vampire being a god who grants their own prayers in a specific way.
[x] Thorek Ironbrow, to witness the arrival of the first Dwarf in Tor Lithanel for over four thousand years.
[x] Vicarius Galenstra, to get to know him and his Ward.
[x] Belegar, to discuss who has been made Loremaster after you.
[x] Egrimm, to try to sound out more information about the Alric situation.
[x] Qrech, who is putting the finishing touches on his tome on the Chaos Dwarves.
[x] Vicarius Galenstra, to get to know him and his Ward.
[x] Belegar, to discuss who has been made Loremaster after you.
[x] Egrimm, to try to sound out more information about the Alric situation.
[x] Qrech, who is putting the finishing touches on his tome on the Chaos Dwarves.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
The argument you can cast using Dhar without the winds can't be proven. All usable warpstone exists on the Warhammer World and is inherently connected with the winds. For all we know, if warpstone exists outside of the reach of the winds, it doesn't allow you to cast with Dhar.
You definitely can't cast necromancy without the winds. It requires Shyish. It's literally the definition of necromancy, to use Shyish to manipulate Dhar.
I'd argue Blood Gifts are more like a mutation. They're not inherently magical, even if they're caused by magic (like using a lightning spell to start a fire. The fire isn't magical, even if the cause was). The same as being a Vampire doesn't require magic after the transformation (otherwise spells like Drain Magic or sticking a Vampire in a magic-proof room would kill them).
I'm pretty sure it can be proven and we already have proven it IC Remember when we proved that AV converts directly to Dhar without passing through the winds. Well AV is the stuff of the warp so we can assume that at the polar gates the stuff of the warp becomes in part Dhar and if you get enough Dhar in one place it becomes warpstone, ergo there exists in the world warpstone that has never been flowing winds... most of it is probably on the moon.
- Location
- UK
Good point, completely missed that parallel. Now I wonder what Mathilde might make of Harmony if she sees it. But the difference I'm fascinated by how is Greenskin Waagh is generated via biology, or at least it's an innate racial trait, whereas with Cathay Harmony seems to be a cultural trait. Harmony isn't seen amongst other human races and is likely shared by the dragons of Cathay. So what part of Cathayan culture gives rise to Harmony?
Also, another thought. Dragon Blooded Sorcerers. Vampires are magically altered super humans, implied to be incomplete due to missing dragon blood. If the sorcerers aren't literally descended from dragons but are altered humans themselves that's an interesting parallel, if they're not directly related (eg Nagash founds some lost Cathay sorcerer?).
Loooooore.
It could be as simple as every citizen of Cathay doing a small ritual on their children that ties them into the netowrk. Perhaps they are all very very minor priests of the Dragon Emperor.
- Location
- UK
I hope so. I imagine it has to be pretty simple to be universal, unless the entire thing is sustained by the Dragon Emperor and Moon Empress, which is I hope not the case. That would make Old World gods seem like absolute slackers considering they're meant to be more or less peers. Where's their culture wide upgrades?
There does presumably have to be something special which at least kick started the whole thing though, which I suspect is related to the two. If it was just a ritual anyone could do combined with basic religion everyone in the Empire should be carrying around a bit of useable divine power of their own too.
Worth noting that the Old World has many gods, if one of them tried to pull something like dedicating the whole population to themselves the others would likely object. It may simply be a matter of what is a feasible blessing in cultural context
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
You can convert water vapour directly into ice without passing through the liquid state but that doesn't mean they're not the same substance. Therefore just because warpstone has never been winds it doesn't mean it's made of something different. Also my point was that if warpstone exists on the Warhammer World (as it must for it to be collectable given the tech level) it must have also touched the winds.
Also, we don't know the mechanics of how Warpstone increases your magical ability. It may very well work on an unknown mechnism rather than simply providing energy directly. Interestingly it's also usually used to enhance magic, and I can't recall a time when it's been used to cast magic on it's own, rather than in conjunction with regular spell-casting. Which might imply that it doesn't provide enough energy to weave a spell without using ambient magic.
Dhar only forms warpstone under certain circumstances IIRC. It needs to effectively be under 'pressure'. For instance in a blocked waystone. Most warpstone doesn't form from Dhar at all but comes from meteorites.
Morrslieb was formed from the winds. At least in canon, it was formed on the surface of the Warhammer world and then was thrown into space during the fall of the polar gates. It could be that it was formed as a plug before one of the gates collapsed completely, due to the 'pressure' thing I mentioned earlier. Morrslieb is also probably where most or all of the warpstone meteors come from.
You could make the same argument with runes, that too is a transformation of kind which we do not know the mechanism of. If anything the fact that wind magic and runes can be integrated is further proof that all magic has some basic commonality, but that does not make everything Wind magic, at least by my conception of what wind magic is
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
There are some easy steps we could take in order to figure this out. We just need to spend a few of our precious AP and probably hire an assistant we can trust.
... Do you think Egrimm van Horstman would be up for an experiment?
- Location
- Greece
It could be that Cathayans are actually using the same principles as the orcs, with their not quite divine not quite arcane population sourced magic.
Given how it works, it is possible that yin-yang is using the same mechanics as the Waaaagh, only drawing from different... emotions? worldviews? behaviours? whatevers?
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Sure, but the difference with Runes is that we don't know how they use that energy to create their effects. Do they pull upon the Glittering Realm? The Ancestor Gods? And so on.
Meanwhile Dhar works sufficiently similarly to wind magic for spells of one to be reverse engineered into the other. They utilize the same mechanics in manipulating their energy, the only difference is one uses Dhar and the other uses whichever wind. And as I've been arguing I don't see Dhar and the winds as being separate substances, merely different states.
For all we know you could reverse engineer runes if you just knew how they worked, the limitation there is cultural, no dwarf is willing to teach it. Plenty of people are willing to teach the theoretical aspects of Dhar so you can make the connection by observation without touching it. As far as we know all magic and all souls and daemons for that matter are made of the same substance.
deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
The issue isn't cultural. You can already replicate the effects of runes with spells. The issue is that however runes do their thing, they don't do it using the same way as someone uses the winds. They aren't even visible the same way. Mathilde hasn't worked out how Branulhune or the Belt of the Unshackled Mountain work, despite being able to observe them at will. Meanwhile Dhar is used in the exact same way as any other wind magic.
Like, to use a metaphor, if magic is clocks, Runes might be a water clock, while Ulgu is a battery powered watch and Dhar is the same watch but hooked up to the mains. Each can have the same result, but where Runes works on entirely different principles, Ulu and Dhar are just powered differently.
- Location
- France
[X] The Karak Azul Architects, to get involved in the design of your Library in detail.
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
Based on how it's created, used, and portrayed, I'd say dhar-based magic is at furthest an extremely close cousin of wind magic (the same techniques applied to a near-wind substance), and more likely just another expression of it.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] The Karak Azul Architects, to get involved in the design of your Library in detail.
I didn't see any discussion about the contest for 5th place, but my take on it is that while Vicarius might be somewhat interesting, I'm very much invested in our Library and want to see more about it quite strongly. I don't care that it might be more "strategic" to socialize with Vicarius; we're going to be spending multiple AP in the future getting to know many of Laurelorn's VIPs and the local Wards in the next few turns. The Library, meanwhile, is a massive investment in the future and I think it's well worth getting in on the ground floor- literally- if we want to help it along towards success. For all that the we hope the Waystone project will change the world, the Library has that same potential in its own way. So I really want to read more of it. (Also, the architecture of massive buildings is cool, ok?)
[X] Belegar, to discuss who has been made Loremaster after you.
I didn't see any discussion about the contest for 5th place, but my take on it is that while Vicarius might be somewhat interesting, I'm very much invested in our Library and want to see more about it quite strongly. I don't care that it might be more "strategic" to socialize with Vicarius; we're going to be spending multiple AP in the future getting to know many of Laurelorn's VIPs and the local Wards in the next few turns. The Library, meanwhile, is a massive investment in the future and I think it's well worth getting in on the ground floor- literally- if we want to help it along towards success. For all that the we hope the Waystone project will change the world, the Library has that same potential in its own way. So I really want to read more of it. (Also, the architecture of massive buildings is cool, ok?)
[X] Belegar, to discuss who has been made Loremaster after you.
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The problem with voting for the library is that there are always going to be reasons to do one last thing with someone else and not actually engage with the arc we're currently in rather than hanging onto past ones.
We need to make the break and actually invest actions to make the emotional connections in and out of character with the new part of the setting we're exploring.
We need to make the break and actually invest actions to make the emotional connections in and out of character with the new part of the setting we're exploring.
[X] The Karak Azul Architects, to get involved in the design of your Library in detail.
[X] Thorek Ironbrow, to witness the arrival of the first Dwarf in Tor Lithanel for over four thousand years.
[X] Egrimm, to try to sound out more information about the Alric situation.
[X] Vicarius Galenstra, to get to know him and his Ward.
[X] Thorek Ironbrow, to witness the arrival of the first Dwarf in Tor Lithanel for over four thousand years.
[X] Egrimm, to try to sound out more information about the Alric situation.
[X] Vicarius Galenstra, to get to know him and his Ward.
- Location
- Australia
Given we saw metalbenders in the trailer, I think those guys are the alchemists.
Eisenhelm
gran dutch of douchery
- Location
- Colombia
wait, really?.
well, that makes two of us.