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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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[x] Wizard
-[x] The Grey Order

I feel a lot of sides have made good points. Enough so that I had a hard time deciding what would be best for Eike and the EIC. Then as I could not make up my mind I went for what I wanted to see the most and that is apprentice!
 
NeonLights said:
If the Grey Order dictates where we can spend our money and why, it's reasonable to not expect more leniency just because Eike makes the EIC a Grey College project.
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The Grey Order didn't dictate where we spend our money though (beyond tithe repayment). They do dictate a focus on being a Grey Wizard rather than making money whilst other Orders are more lenient in terms of how much effort one can spend making money vs actually doing stuff for the Order.

We have never been subject to that much oversight on financial matters - the Bursar only paid close interest after Mathilde got multiple massive windfalls in a short span of time.
 
I honestly don't know why people say the Vow of Poverty will be a huge issue. Mathilde, in the update, notes it's not a problem. And then Boney confirmed it: "The Vow of Poverty would not necessarily prevent Eike from inheriting, but it will mean that she will be required to make the EIC 'of direct and practical use to her cause'"

Yes, it does give some restrictions. But those are pretty much the same as why Wilhelmine's sons didn't get the post, and what we want from Eike in the position anyway: No excessive hoarding of health, not using it on frivolous luxuries, no expanding the company at the cost of the empire.
 
NavySeel said:
Honestly I'm finding it slightly annoying to come back to the thread and find literally pages of people making arguments that had been pretty firmly debunked earlier.

As you say, that's on a surface level, and its about our money. Even as the person running the company the EICs money would not be Eikes rendering that kind of moot.

And you're right we've simply had to be a massive stock holder which actually was our money and run a fief.

The Grey college doesn't care so long as Eikes personal profits go towards things that benefit the empire or her magic.

Again I feel this is massively overestimating how large of a burden he vow of poverty is seeing as Mathilde was allowed to live in a penthouse with a massive personal library and anything else she wanted including silk sheets.

There are nobles who look poor compared to Mathilde and she wasn't even a lady magister at the time.
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It's not that the Vow of Poverty is the worst thing to ever happen to anyone ever. It's not that she can't ever have money. It's that with the Vow and the Grey College comes pressures and expectations that Eike will have to work with or around, things that she can avoid by not joining the Greys. If she doesn't, they'll be no expectations to make herself or the company useful to the Grey Orders standards, or face increased scrutiny until she gets respect or makes Magister, and perhaps not even then. It's not insurmountable, but why have her deal with that when she can join the Golds and have no expectations for the money she makes or the time she spends from on high?


Thebigpieman said:
There's a lot of support for taking Eike as an apprentice. Not to go hunting for one specifically.
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Yeah, I did overlook that. As many advantages as the Golds offer there's really only one way to go if you want that.

Zero Gravitas said:
The Grey Order didn't dictate where we spend our money though (beyond tithe repayment). They do dictate a focus on being a Grey Wizard rather than making money whilst other Orders are more lenient in terms of how much effort one can spend making money vs actually doing stuff for the Order.

We have never been subject to that much oversight on financial matters - the Bursar only paid close interest after Mathilde got multiple massive windfalls in a short span of time.
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We sidestepped that issue when we got a vote on how to spend the K8P silver from running the Ranaldian gambling ring, and we picked that it belonged to the Dawongr hat; which required that 75% be spent in the Karaz Ankor.

BoneyM said:
[ ] This is Dame Weber's money. The funds will largely go towards investment in Stirland - possibly your fief, possibly the EIC, possibly investing elsewhere within the province.
[ ] This is Magister Weber's money. Make no attempt to push the funds through any of the available loopholes and spend it all in plain sight of the College. You would be beholden to spend it on ways at least nominally good for the Empire, and soon.
[ ] This is Dawongr Weber's money. The funds will largely go projects within the Karaz Ankor - your tower for one, but also investing in the Undumgi or Ulrikadrin, or purchasing goods made by Dwarven artisans or sold in the markets of Barak Varr.
[ ] This is tomorrow's problem. Let the money sit in the King's Armoury for now. Once you've decided what your future will be, then you can decide what to do with the money.
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Magister Weber, which would be the same umbrella Eike would be under as a Grey, had requirements on how the money should be spent if she spent it as a wizard.
 
NeonLights said:
It's not that the Vow of Poverty is the worst thing to ever happen to anyone ever. It's not that she can't ever have money. It's that with the Vow and the Grey College comes pressures and expectations that Eike will have to work with or around, things that she can avoid by not joining the Greys. If she doesn't, they'll be no expectations to make herself or the company useful to the Grey Orders standards, or face increased scrutiny until she gets respect or makes Magister, and perhaps not even then. It's not insurmountable, but why have her deal with that when she can join the Golds and have no expectations for the money she makes or the time she spends from on high?
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By that logic no one should join the Greys or Amethysts.

And really it would make just as much sense for her to treat head of the EIC Eike as separate from Magister Eike.
 
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NeonLights said:
We sidestepped that issue when we got a vote on how to spend the K8P silver from running the Ranaldian gambling ring, and we picked that it belonged to the Dawongr hat; which required that 75% be spent in the Karaz Ankor.
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We already had the EIC, noble title and selling expensive books to dragonriding elves windfalls - the Ranaldian gambling ring was just particularly notable due to being on the 'hire elite mercenary regiment for a couple years' end of the scale.

NavySeel said:
By that logic no one should join the Greys or Amethysts.
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In all fairness Eike is one of the 0,1% who might stand a better chance of making more money without being a wizard than by being one.

That's more due to the EIC being obscenely rich rather than Greys or Amethysts not having enough opportunities for wealth though.
 
NeonLights said:
Magister Weber, which would be the same umbrella Eike would be under as a Grey, had requirements on how the money should be spent if she spent it as a wizard.
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Yes, and?
Being mega wealthy is not a right, it's a priviledge, and frankly i see no problem with limiting Eike to merely obscenely wealthy with phenomenal cosmic powers, like Mathilde.
 
NeonLights said:
It's not that the Vow of Poverty is the worst thing to ever happen to anyone ever. It's not that she can't ever have money. It's that with the Vow and the Grey College comes pressures and expectations that Eike will have to work with or around, things that she can avoid by not joining the Greys. If she doesn't, they'll be no expectations to make herself or the company useful to the Grey Orders standards, or face increased scrutiny until she gets respect or makes Magister, and perhaps not even then. It's not insurmountable, but why have her deal with that when she can join the Golds and have no expectations for the money she makes or the time she spends from on high?
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That expectation for the EIC is there regardless, because Mathilde is the largest shareholder. If Eike is not a member, it will be somewhat more relaxed, but then she'll always have Mathilde looking over her shoulder.

And hell, the Vow of Poverty merely formalises standards we want anyway. Like running it for a purpose beyond making the Shareholders richer and more powerful. And it can still do that, it just has to also do something like find bad people, improve the overall economic development of the empire or improve international relations. All of which it's been doing already. (helping with finding the vampire traders, letting traders come along its protected river conveys, and making sure nobody fucks with K8P; as examples for the three points.)

The Grey College is very harsh on people who truly run afoul of the vow of poverty, but that's because it's a very loose leash, and you really have to get egregious to turn it into a noose.
 
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NavySeel said:
By that logic no one should join the Greys or Amethysts.

And really it would make just as much sense for her to treat head of the EIC Eike as separate from Magister Eike.
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We already crossed the Amethysts off for forcing her to disinherit. The Greys are a much better option, but still present issue, and don't have the advantages the Golds will offer.

And the separation of identities will probably be happening anyway because it's two separate organizations. The business of the EIC is separate from the business of the Grey Order, even if the ties are strong.

Zero Gravitas said:
We already had the EIC, noble title and selling expensive books to dragonriding elves windfalls - the Ranaldian gambling ring was just particularly notable due to being on the 'hire elite mercenary regiment for a couple years' end of the scale.
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We had to rules to follow there as well.
BoneyM said:
You've also got to consider your financial windfall. The Grey Order is yet to comment, but their gears grind slow but fine and this is too much for them to ignore. They'll soon ask pointed questions as to which of the cavernous loopholes in the Grey Order's Vow of Poverty you'll be shoving the funds through.
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Easy rules, but still rules. Money isn't the big ticket issue in question, it's the Grey Order wanting it's membership to be actively serving the Empire to a sufficient degree. Why make it harder for her to balance her dual loyalties when it could be easier for her with the Golds, where making money is a necessity in and of itself?

Valmond said:
Yes, and?
Being mega wealthy is not a right, it's a priviledge, and frankly i see no problem with limiting Eike to merely obscenely wealthy with phenomenal cosmic powers, like Mathilde.
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It's not about Eike being wealthy, she'll end up responsible for more money than she can reasonably spend. It's about putting her in the best position for her success based on her future responsibilities and the resources she'll have access to. Not to mention the Grey's exercising a tighter grip on it's members.

BurnNote said:
That expectation for the EIC is there regardless, because Mathilde is the largest shareholder. If Eike is not a member, it will be somewhat more relaxed, but then she'll always have Mathilde looking over her shoulder.

And hell, the Vow of Poverty merely formalises standards we want anyway. Like running it for a purpose beyond making the Shareholders richer and more powerful. And it can still do that, it just has to also do something like find bad people, improve the overall economic development of the empire or improve international relations. All of which it's been doing already. (helping with finding the vampire traders, letting traders come along its protected river conveys, and making sure nobody fucks with K8P; as examples for the three points.)

The Grey College is very harsh on people who truly run afoul of the vow of poverty, but that's because it's a very loose leash, and you really have to get egrigious to turn it into a noose.
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BoneyM said:
g) The full extent of Mathilde's personal wealth, which very quickly stops being wink wink nudge nudge accepted if it becomes public knowledge.
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We only got away with being rich because we were quiet about being rich. How much money will Eike have to handle managing a growing trade company in plain sight? And the tolerance for her will be much lower than it was for us.

And it was doing all that before we knew Eike had magical potential because we had it do that. Even if we dropped it, the Hochlander would pick the intel network and keep going. And Eike was raised by Wilhemina who made it a point to pass on her values. Eike and the company have more to lose by causing trouble and stopping doing good than they have to gain by skirting the rules.

Edit: And Eike would still be a wizard. She wouldn't stop doing things that pad her resume and that a more powerful member of the Colleges of Magic instituted.
 
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NeonLights said:
It's not about Eike being wealthy, she'll end up responsible for more money than she can reasonably spend. It's about putting her in the best position for her success based on her future responsibilities and the resources she'll have access to. Not to mention the Grey's exercising a on tighter grip on it's members.
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How are you defining success here?
Because it feels the success is being measured purely on financial gains, which is the exact opposite of what i would want from EIC and Eike.
And, yes, tighter grip may be held by the Grey, because the power and responsibility Ulgu and the Grey order provide.

But unless you are going to claim that this has been some tragedy for Mathilde, and that gold order would have been obviously superrior choice for her, i don't really see that as much of an argument for the gold order, or against the grey.
And given that Eike is going to be obscenely wealthy, i think some tighter grib is in order, just because we like her, does not mean we should excuse her of responsibility that should come with her advantages.
 
NeonLights said:
It's not about Eike being wealthy, she'll end up responsible for more money than she can reasonably spend. It's about putting her in the best position for her success based on her future responsibilities and the resources she'll have access to. Not to mention the Grey's exercising a on tighter grip on it's members.
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Ah yes, a very tight grip. Why who can forget when the Bursar barely asked about the cartload of money we defrauded off some mercs and made fish jokes. Such Tyranny... I don't know how we handle it really.
 
DragonParadox said:
Ah yes, a very tight grip. Why who can forget when the Bursar barely asked about the cartload of money we defrauded off some mercs and made fish jokes. Such Tyranny... I don't know how we handle it really.
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Aren't the Greys notable for their zero tolerance policies and having the most pacifications? We'd find a lot of trouble if we decided to drop our responsibilities to be a full on businesswoman, which Eike may need or even want to do. And I was more referring to their whole impetus to have their members keep themselves busy serving the Empire. Not unreasonable, but definitely disadvantageous compared to other Colleges, and the easier it is for Eike to manage two jobs the better.

Valmond said:
How are you defining success here?
Because it feels the success is being measured purely on financial gains, which is the exact opposite of what i would want from EIC and Eike.
And, yes, tighter grip may be held by the Grey, because the power and responsibility Ulgu and the Grey order provide.

But unless you are going to claim that this has been some tragedy for Mathilde, and that gold order would have been obviously superrior choice for her, i don't really see that as much of an argument for the gold order, or against the grey.
And given that Eike is going to be obscenely wealthy, i think some tighter grib is in order, just because we like her, does not mean we should excuse her of responsibility that should come with her advantages.
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I'm not seeking to set parameters for success, I'm seeking to point out being wealthy while being the head of trade company would be much easier as a Gold than a Grey. Less restrictions on wealth accumulation and more ways to leverage it in ways magically beneficial, less pressure on how you live and what you do. Having money would avoid her having to prioritize what types she pursues, and can do expensive things like Gild her entire body as soon as she wants to.
 
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