Orc Quest; or, A Critical Examination of Agency Through in Interactive Fiction (Warcraft)

FractiousDay · Apr 18, 2021

hapcelion said:
I would have thought that there would have been a third option. That we could tell the truth and accept the warchief's judgment as is.

Basically covered by scorn and karthas report, which was accurate as far as 'the warlocks at dreadmist summoned a big demon'. You could give a perfectly accurate report but that just confirms the story with a bit more detail. You could potentially also note that Jubeithos was about and he's the one responsible for getting the Kolkar together, but Thrall would likely interpret this as a diversion and more evidence of the BB not having its act together.

Doomed Wombat said:
1. As far as questions go, my first is what evidence does Thrall have.
2. With lie as presented is it safe to assume if we speak up we're getting booted out no matter what, either by fel dad for disobeying at such a pivotal moment or by Thrall for taking credit for it.

On write ins, I don't really see any other choices. Events have moved and tension escalated beyond the point at which you could turn up and say 'actually the issues are different', one of the central issues is simply the personalities of the two leaders, neither trusts the other and both blame the other for various things, rightly or wrongly. I'm not saying you're wrong specifically, just that such an appeal is very unlikely to produce the results you want at this time.

On questions,

1, in character, evidence generally of renegades like Darkstorm, and by extension the inability of the BB to keep their house in order, evidence from multiple sources of what happens at Dreadmist, more prominently that the warlocks summoned a very powerful demon, ooc, also the evidence he had Nazgrel get you to collect, his canon investigations into the BB and the various quests involving infiltrating it, his awareness of something suspicious going on in Desolace (but no specifics) and generally reports from elsewhere noting that the Shadow Council doesn't seem as dead as it should be.

2, you're taking the punishment yourself, and also throwing Thralls notes on community etc back in his face. This gives the clan a degree of immunity because you make it seem like you're the renegade, which you can also strengthen because you went to try and stop Forneus. It somewhat deflects attention away from the 'fel bad' arguments Thrall has and generally shields the clan. It would indeed lead to exile, specifically by Thrall, but would strengthen your position in the BB because you just took the fall for them. Would also cause Neeru to reflect on his position and loyalties given what his son's just done, but once he calmed down he'd be very grateful because it's not like he's thinking straight at the moment.

Generally, as you note there were many mistakes made, now though people are more interested in finding someone to blame. Thrall has tried to set it up that the BB take the blame for a variety of reasons, some more legitimate than others, if you step up instead you can make various appeals etc and exert some measure of control over the narrative. You killed Darkstorm. You acted under orders to engage the Kolkar, you eliminated a large threat, the Kolkar summoned a large elemental that's caused a lot of destruction and you rode to meet it even though you thought it wouldn't work, you've acted as you thought you should etc and therefore the blame should be on you

SneakyWalrus · Apr 18, 2021

How is it our fault for summoning the demon though? We did it in response to the Kolkar's efforts to summon a massive elemental.

Zaealix · Apr 18, 2021

...
HRM!
Waaay back when in Orgrimmar 1...Hang on, lemme find the point where you mention it. AH!
"Beware Bloodeye", said Drok the Craven. If we take the fall for the Burning Blade, Bloodeye will remain a political rival for us within the Clan. We'll be something of an honored Son for having put our butt on the line to save the Clan.
It's very possible Bloodeye will be personally invested to seek us out and tear us a new one if we stay silent. And with Jubei'Thos lurking around, ANYONE we piss off can and will be turned against us.
...
We dodged a bullet when FelDad's love for us came to overshadow his attachment to the Fel.
...It's...Just a shame it came too late, for him.
But! Jubei'Thos. And as for what we do in the aftermath...IDK. If Thrall wants to talk to us, I hope it's in private because we DO need to explain about Jubei teaching the Kolkar enough to throw their lives away in sacrifice to Summon Forneus. Our holding of ProudPeak may or may not have made that worse (Depends on if the big Demon the Burning Elders summoned could have stopped Forneus, the impression I get is no, it could not.)
But yeah, we SERIOUSLY needed to grab someone who was more social/politically savvy because we missed ALL of that. Like. Wow.

Cryos · Apr 18, 2021

The Burning Blade may well fall, we can lie and protect the clan to take the punishment unto ourselves, but frankly we shouldn't, the truth is the Burning Blade is a mess, how can we defend our clan when we don't even know what most of them are up to? We've seen what the elders were doing at Dreadmist Peak (even without us ordering a demon summoned the Centaurs could only summon Forneaus because the elements were being tortured for so long) who knows what they are doing in Thunder Axe fortress.

This is not even taking into consideration what undermining Thrall could do, the Horde has just been dealt a massive blow and Thrall's legitimacy has been shaken badly, do we really want to undermine him even more? Do we HONESTLY believe anyone could do a better job than Thrall right now? Because we might be young still but I think even we can realize nothing good can come out of dividing the Horde even more.

Our loyalty, ultimately, does not belong to the Clan or even to our father, it belongs to the Horde and honor calls to us to do what's best for the Horde, not for our clan. We have seen firsthand the truth about Fel, it is a poisoned chalice, and frankly I would understand Thrall banning it.

We may have been in charge at the battle of Dreadmist Peak, but the conditions that allowed for the summoning of Forneaus existed long before we set foot on that mountain, and the Burning Blade and their traditions as a whole are responsible for it, the Clan WAS in the wrong here, all we can do is await the warchief's judgement.

Doomed Wombat · Apr 18, 2021

SneakyWalrus said:
How is it our fault for summoning the demon though? We did it in response to the Kolkar's efforts to summon a massive elemental.

Cause the rapidity and willingness flout the regulations set in place by two warchiefs.

FractiousDay said:
On write ins, I don't really see any other choices.

mmm, I disagree (kinda.)

Its not that I don't think we can't find someone to blame I think its more how we choose to take the blame. Currently controlling the narrative means undermining Thrall's policies, which on an IC and meta-level we don't want to do, and I think we can take the blame without doing that as well. Ironically I think we can do the same while reinforcing his policies.

On the other hand on an IC and meta level I also don't want to screw over the burning blade and want to make feldad reconsider his position.

If you wish I can try to give an alternative.

Zaealix said:
Jubei teaching the Kolkar enough to throw their lives away in sacrifice to Summon Forneus.

Again I don't think that's a thing.

Forneaus isn't the type to be summoned by fel techniques I think and the Kolkar most certainly have an in with a high ranking earth elemental. The most that can be said is that he pumped them up to the point of doing that.

Zaealix said:
But yeah, we SERIOUSLY needed to grab someone who was more social/politically savvy because we missed ALL of that. Like. Wow.

You did?

I thought it was fairly clear this was going to happen. Kinda inevitable really.

Cryos said:
Do we HONESTLY believe anyone could do a better job than Thrall right now? Because we might be young still but I think even we can realize nothing good can come out of dividing the Horde even more.

Thing is the horde is already undermined. Fel dad's got an in with at least 3 other clans one of which is a big one, and fracturing the burning blade also has the potential to do a lot of damage.

If we have to do X or Y I'll choose to remain silent and cross fingers that Thrall's got a bigger plan than just piss fel dad off, but still.

Negation · Apr 18, 2021

Or should we lie to take responsibility for our failures and request exile until our honor has been redeemed?

hapcelion · Apr 18, 2021

Negation said:
Or should we lie to take responsibility for our failures and request exile until our honor has been redeemed?

We could go ronin here, though I'd like to ask what kind of reactions that would get from feldad or the clan? Would they see that as us chickening out?

Zaealix · Apr 18, 2021

hapcelion said:
We could go ronin here, though I'd like to ask what kind of reactions that would get from feldad or the clan? Would they see that as us chickening out?

It could be seen as twisting the knife- that we didn't just accidentally sell out the clan, we gleefully shattered it for our own gain, and then threw what little we could have gained away just to spite them and their ways. Good for no one but Thrall, at best.

Cryos · Apr 18, 2021

Doomed Wombat said:
Thing is the horde is already undermined. Fel dad's got an in with at least 3 other clans one of which is a big one, and fracturing the burning blade also has the potential to do a lot of damage.

Oh yeah absolutely, which is why I'd like to avoid doing even more damage, but thing is....I don't think anyone else could do a better job than him right now, especially Fel Dad.
Sure we would be fine if this were to happen,at least in the short to medium term, but long term? The Horde is fucked, just look at how Garrosh did, but make it even worse because a return to Fel magic is mixed in.

Fel Dad might care about us but....he's frankly not that great objectively and we do not want someone like him in charge of the Horde.

hapcelion · Apr 18, 2021

Zaealix said:
It could be seen as twisting the knife- that we didn't just accidentally sell out the clan, we gleefully shattered it for our own gain, and then threw what little we could have gained away just to spite them and their ways. Good for no one but Thrall, at best.

If we stay, I suppose there's some hope we can reform the clan, diminished though we may be.

FractiousDay · Apr 18, 2021

Cryos said:
Our loyalty, ultimately, does not belong to the Clan or even to our father, it belongs to the Horde

One minor thing to note, as per chargen your loyalty is to Azeroth. You are less 'for the horde' and more 'against the burning legion'. IC there's stuff there about preserving the Horde's antidemon capabilities and knowledge, and also the point that it's not only a loss but the gain of an enemy because if the BB are outlawed a lot will either run off on their own and become Darkstorms, or will go off to Desolace and join up there. Ooc we know that the BB are just one more strand of the Shadow Council and taking the blame for recent events is likely to cause neeru to react badly

Doomed Wombat said:
If you wish I can try to give an alternative.

hm. I'm inclined against it for the reason you note in your post, that this confrontation has been sort of inevitable and because I want to maintain the simplicity of the binary choice, however I'll note two things, firstly that I've slightly amended the lie choice to be less hostile to Thrall, yes it'll undermine his rhetoric but it doesn't go directly against his policies, and secondly that I'm willing to accept suggestions, either in write in form or in the usual way of your remarks influencing the character. For example if you lie and take responsibility you could take it in a particular way

Doomed Wombat said:
The most that can be said is that he pumped them up to the point of doing that.

So you don't know exactly what jubeithos was doing. He was responsible in some way for the events but whether he gave the centaur tips on a ritual etc, or simply noted 'hey guys you can do this thing', or something else, you don't know, so keep that in mind in case you were planning to make a decision based on that info etc.

hapcelion said:
We could go ronin here, though I'd like to ask what kind of reactions that would get from feldad or the clan? Would they see that as us chickening out?

If you lie you'd have saved the clan and your sacrifice would be greatly honoured. Instead of the BB being exiled (sort of not really) it would be you being exiled because you took responsibility. The more politically minded of the clan would be most grateful because you've given them a way to stay inside the horde etc rather than being kicked out or slowly degrading over time, haemorrhaging members into the other clans etc. This would assure your position as clan heir indefinitely, but would also mean you weren't allowed around horde stuff for while.

Doomed Wombat · Apr 18, 2021

Negation said:
Or should we lie to take responsibility for our failures and request exile until our honor has been redeemed?

Not sure that's how it works.

Unfortunately, I don't think we can slayer's oath our way out of this one.

Anyway, my proposed alternative to lying is to...well tell more of the truth for a start.

Fundamentally it boils down to a few key details.
1. Yes they were ready to summon the demon, but we did explicitly give them permission to do so, and through our actions had contributed greatly to the angering of the elements (likely true, whether or not Forneaus gave a shit about Proudpeek or not.) AKA bring the spotlight onto us.
2. Our argument should be that we did so because we suspected that when we fell, the Kolkar would sweep over the barrens to continue their campaign, so our focus was inflicting as many casualties on the Kolkar as possible, a task in which we were too successful. Give reason for why we did it, and TBF I'm pretty sure this was exactly what we expected.
3. Had that been the end of the story, it would have been a day of tragic glory, reparations to the elements and submitting to the War Chief's judgment for defying his edicts in a time of dire need, but other unknown factors had involved themselves. A specter who had eluded the gaze of all within the horde, a traitor long thought dead from the burning blade's past had been rallying the Kolkar for their own purposes, Jubei'Thos. A Demon worshipping coward identified by honorable Akinos, who stoked the Kolkar into a blade to unleash against the Horde while concealing their movements such that it was left unaware of the threat it faced, until the weapon it had forged from their hatred was unleashed. Only when the battle was over did he strike at those of us who remained on Deadmist when we were at our weakest and so kindled the hatred of the Centaur that they willingly sacrificed their own lives to unleash Forneaus.
This is where I try to slip in a bit of support for Thrall emphasising the importance of knowing what's going on, that the battle started not just because the Orcs are expansionist and also **** the old horde, but also introduce Jub into the narrative. I don't think its redircting, but its certainly giving the public an additional tidbit to much on.
4. At its core only two remain to hold the blame for what has occurred, two blademasters, two scions of the burning blade. One a monster, and one a fool who failed in his duty thrice. To hold to the commands of the Warchief, to stop a stain upon his clan's honour and finally to hold in place what his actions put in motion. Warchief, the fool stands before you now and awaits judgment.
Keep the focus on us.

Edit: Oh and unexpected side note, it might increase the chances of fel dad rexamining his position. Jub is practically the embodiment of the old burning blade that he's still serving and it got them into this mess. Hopefully it'd make him think.

FractiousDay said:
hm. I'm inclined against it for the reason you note in your post, that this confrontation has been sort of inevitable and because I want to maintain the simplicity of the binary choice, however I'll note two things, firstly that I've slightly amended the lie choice to be less hostile to Thrall, yes it'll undermine his rhetoric but it doesn't go directly against his policies, and secondly that I'm willing to accept suggestions, either in write in form or in the usual way of your remarks influencing the character. For example if you lie and take responsibility you could take it in a particular way

Fair nuff. I guess I'll just point to the above for what I'd put into a "lie." AKA minimizing the actual lie as much as possible, but certainly adding in hypothesizing.

Cryos said:
Fel Dad might care about us but....he's frankly not that great objectively and we do not want someone like him in charge of the Horde.

Oh I agree 100%, but I also think that everyone should be given a chance. Even before Fractious mentioned this may make him reconsider some things I was of the view that this might.

FractiousDay said:
So you don't know exactly what jubeithos was doing. He was responsible in some way for the events but whether he gave the centaur tips on a ritual etc, or simply noted 'hey guys you can do this thing', or something else, you don't know, so keep that in mind in case you were planning to make a decision based on that info etc.

Nah. At most making the inference that whatever happened he was probably at least involved in getting them sufficiently pissed off to do it in the first place.

Whether he did more than that I do not know, nor do I think we really need to know. That's enough.

Jasten · Apr 18, 2021

I have just recently watched the Next Generation Star Trek episode where Worf has to accept a lie about his Father's honor for the Klingon Empire to not fall apart. Thus I am even more inclined to go with my normal impulse and push for taking the fall ourselves.

So Lie For Honor as it stands.

But I would think it could be slightly woven into a less throwing it in Thrall's face situation. Because we literally did do everything while looking up to him.

He kicked shamanism back up, and we wanted to do the same for our Burning Blade traditions.

He has been pushing to stay stable and protect orcs in the land, we ended up using a huge amount of the Burning Blades strength against a bunch of the Kolkar's strength.

This city shatter stuff sucks, but orcs rise again. They are the Children of the Breakers, standing strong is what they do. They will rebuild, and they have more room to expand with so many dead centaur herd ground open for expansion.

We hate the Legion. It's our thing, because they are the biggest bad outside the Old Ones. Turning the power of demons again themselves is one more way.

And again, alot of dumb things happened, with so many interwoven parts we couldn't control.

But again, that is what Thrall is dealing with too. So he puts on pageantry to support his position. Understandable, but shows go both way.

Frankly, I think the middle ground here is not so much Lie for Honor, but have a full How Dare You break down in defense of FelDad.

Like he sucks in his own ways, but as do all. I personally want a strong/unified group of fel knowing orcs to balance out the magic roster. I feel like the character piloted here has been reaching for power too just to try and feel relevant against all the moving pieces. And there we did something big, something that was already happening yet won.

So yeah. Standing up against Role Model Dad for our fel Dad as we finally realize his good qualities and Thralls bad ones, and sorta outline our "Unity against the legion" doctrine is what I would vote for.

If that involves being banished, as much as I love thrall as a character I cannot in good concious support anything besides marching into exile with a middle finger up.

Then brooding. Alot of brooding, and drinking in a dingy goblin tavern. For atmosphere of course.

Negation · Apr 19, 2021

Does the Horde have a Deathsworn Legion or something? A bunch of crazy people who keep on charging into suicide missions until they die &/or their honor is redeemed?

FractiousDay · Apr 19, 2021

Negation said:
Does the Horde have a Deathsworn Legion or something? A bunch of crazy people who keep on charging into suicide missions until they die &/or their honor is redeemed?

while they don't have any slayer equivalent, in more recent years blizzard have introduced the idea that orcs paint/tattoo their faces white when they're sad. Nerzul did it because he felt like he betrayed his people, saurfang did when he felt like he was dead

Doomed Wombat said:
Anyway, my proposed alternative to lying is to...well tell more of the truth for a start.

Jasten said:
But I would think it could be slightly woven into a less throwing it in Thrall's face situation. Because we literally did do everything while looking up to him.

Approved generally, I can integrate some of the reasoning into the lie option

Taijutsu_ · Apr 19, 2021

Given that Thrall has objectively failed in a lot of Big Deal things recently, how loyal to him IC would we really be? Like, he united the clans, created the Horde, and advanced shamanism, go him. But...he's kinda failed at being a peacetime leader given how so few clans (not just BB) actually follow him, he Completely Failed as a war hero/champion to stop Forneus, and he was really ineffective at dealing with the post-battle disaster relief. Now what's he focusing on? Not building the people up in their need but physically and socially dividing them.

Yeah, Fel is bad, demons stink, on that we agree, but is Thrall's priority right now the Horde, or Thrall? We just fought the same walking mountain he did to about the same effect—as a gifted newb, not as the Chosen Savior of Orckind—and he has the gall to lecture and insinuate from his throne on high?

[x]Lie.
-[x] Bonus points if we can somehow challenge him to a duel to illustrate the farce of honor his actions are vis. the Azeroth Magic Steroid Hero fighting some teenager literally just off his sickbed. Really twist the sword we're falling on into his gut.

Thrall the Unifier we can respect, but this pretender? We owe him nothing.

Xilentxium · Apr 19, 2021

Just wanna say I am enjoying Orcish Suffering Quest, and I say this 100% sincerely.

On one hand, I think Thrall is the best Orc in all of fiction. On the other I wanna see if we can pull off a Feldad redemption arc.

Hmm decisions decisions.

Doomed Wombat · Apr 19, 2021

Taijutsu_ said:
Not building the people up in their need but physically and socially dividing them.

On an OOC level at least we know why, since someone who is actively working for the burning legion is currently getting increasingly in charge and he knows it.

Even then there is a massive difference between individual members of the warsong clan like Vrak going to fight the Kul'tiran compared to a clan with so many traitors in it that it is practically impossible to know if any of them are actually loyal, since despite your statements the clans do generally follow Thrall's lead. Meanwhile, the burning blade even excepting all the traitors, hidden bases, subversion, sending people to die in the ragefire chasm etc. would still have flauted the commands of two Warchief's.

I'll also not be quite so eager to state that he was entirely ineffective at post-battle relief, the main source we have for that is Neeru, who on numerous levels is going to be biased towards him.

So far Thrall's main failing is that he's stuck true to his morals and tried to talk down Forneaus when the elemental had already long since made up its mind to give zero shits and is now very concerned (understandably so) with history repeating itself in such a literal fashion.

Netos · Apr 19, 2021

If we let things go on, matters will escalate and there will probably be a split, BB + Shattered Hand + Bleeding Hollow and someone else against the rest.

Doomed Wombat said:
Thing is the horde is already undermined. Fel dad's got an in with at least 3 other clans one of which is a big one, and fracturing the burning blade also has the potential to do a lot of damage.

and every single warlock will have a shot at setting themselves up as a Dark Lord. That's why I am inclined to lie.

Doomed Wombat said:
Ironically I think we can do the same while reinforcing his policies

Yes, but how to do so? Hmm... we're quite in a pickle indeed... 🤔

Doomed Wombat said:
[On Jubei'thos] I don't think it's redircting, but its certainly giving the public an additional tidbit to much on.

💡We and the public (and Thrall too) need someone to blame. A scary enemy can fit the role. Jubei'thos.
We should lie. But this lie will present us, and by extension the BB as "those who take hard decisions so that the Horde can ~~peacefully sleep in their beds~~ survive". Jubei'thos is the darkness of the old Horde come again, and pushed the Centaurs into summoning Forneus.
(aside: I wonder how a being made of corruption could persuade the centaurs to sacrifice themselves to purge corruption. But that's a question for another time)

Taijutsu_ said:
Bonus points if we can somehow challenge him to a duel to illustrate the farce of honor his actions are

No, it doesn't make sense, he could just refuse us and state that we are still drunk on recovering from the wounds. Or he could accept for a later time, in which case the only path that I see is -> take the Fel -> become stronk -> defeat Thrall -> give unlimited power to Feldad. But but IC and OOC I don't see this as a road to take.

Taijutsu_ · Apr 19, 2021

Doomed Wombat said:
I'll also not be quite so eager to state that he was entirely ineffective at post-battle relief, the main source we have for that is Neeru, who on numerous levels is going to be biased towards him

But why would we have any reason to doubt that?
For all the complications in our relationship with FelDad, he's always tried to give it to us straight and he demonstrably prioritizes our well-being.

Compare that to our march* through the wrecked city culminating in a newly-constructed political arena. It's not a good look. IC we already know that Thrall is desperately trying to shore up some political legitimacy, and he wouldn't need to do that if the people are confident in his leadership. Like, disaster relief is one of the easiest ways to gain huge approval rating as a politician. All you have to do is be generally competent, have a clear plan, and actually try to do your job of taking care of your constituents.

*forced march under armed guard. One side is clearly hostile to us and it's not FelDad's.

Doomed Wombat said:
On an OOC level at least we know why, since someone who is actively working for the burning legion is currently getting increasingly in charge and he knows it.

I mean, -I- don't know that OOC and I'm likely not unique in that. Props to you for knowing extensive warcraft lore, I guess. If you want to vote that way go for it. IC perspectives are more important to me personally on this quest, so that doesn't affect my decision-making either way.

Doomed Wombat · Apr 19, 2021

Netos said:
BB + Shattered Hand + Bleeding Hollow and someone else against the rest.

Likely not all of the BB or shattered hand. Varok maybe willing to work with Fel dad I don't think he's willing to turn traitor on Thrall...however, far too many when the horde really doesn't need it.

Netos said:
and every single warlock will have a shot at setting themselves up as a Dark Lord. That's why I am inclined to lie.

Warlock and blade master.

The problem with the Burning Blade is that it has an awful lot of elite characters and has benefitted from the bad guys dark matter generator. So it has significantly more resources than it probably should.

It also has at least one semi-hidden base (I assume at least that Thrall doesn't know Desolace is a thing yet.)

Netos said:
Yes, but how to do so? Hmm... we're quite in a pickle indeed... 🤔

IMO we can do it in threeish ways.
1. Emphasising that while its all very well and good to do "what is needed to win" doing so can backfire catastrophically. We're a more recent example, but just look at Grom in the past.
2. Don't rush in: Its not really anyone's fault since it was lack of information that it is unreasonable for anyone to know (even in hindsight) that all of this was going on. However, the point remains and could be an argument to Thrall more directly, proactivity doesn't necessitate ordering a raid on the enemy. You need to know your foes well enough to preferably not fight them at all, and if they're doing something to be able to tell if its weird/be able to at least deduce things from it. IIRC a genuine question was "why are they doing this now" so in the future Thrall and the Orc's at large need to realise "that's a question that has to be answered."
3. Battles happen more cause of them than they'd like: A lot of the Orc's expansionist aggression seems to stem from the belief that they're under constant attack, but the issue there is that's because they cause people to hold grudges or other people with grudes rally them against em. In other words we need to get across that Orcish actions have consequences. This is one for the horde population more than Thrall as he knows this.

Netos said:
💡We and the public (and Thrall too) need someone to blame. A scary enemy can fit the role. Jubei'thos.
We should lie. But this lie will present us, and by extension the BB as "those who take hard decisions so that the Horde can ~~peacefully sleep in their beds~~ survive". Jubei'thos is the darkness of the old Horde come again, and pushed the Centaurs into summoning Forneus.
(aside: I wonder how a being made of corruption could persuade the centaurs to sacrifice themselves to purge corruption. But that's a question for another time)

I disagree. Trying to throw all the blame on Jub isn't likely to work, it'll be seen as us attempting to create an easy out.

Extremely convenient that a traitor blade master turned up and was responsible for everything that went wrong. Its also incorrect he just made everything a million times worse.

What he is good for is a reminder to the Horde that
1. The old horde sucks and the memories of its actions/members keep coming back to poo on our parade.
2. Gives Thrall a nod essentially to keep looking into the burning blade shenanigans.
3. Is a big ol hint to Feldad to stop looking up to these people.

Who knows. Jub's presumably got charisma on him, he managed to convince a large chunk of the blackrock clan to follow him after all. I don't see it as implausible that he could have pumped them up sufficiently to think **** it.

Taijutsu_ said:
But why would we have any reason to doubt that?
For all the complications in our relationship with FelDad, he's always tried to give it to us straight and he demonstrably prioritizes our well-being.

Compare that to our march* through the wrecked city culminating in a newly-constructed political arena. It's not a good look. IC we already know that Thrall is desperately trying to shore up some political legitimacy, and he wouldn't need to do that if the people are confident in his leadership. Like, disaster relief is one of the easiest ways to gain huge approval rating as a politician. All you have to do is be generally competent, have a clear plan, and actually try to do your job of taking care of your constituents.

*forced march under armed guard. One side is clearly hostile to us and it's not FelDad's.

Because he's very rarely given us straight answers.

Just in the last few updates, he's tried to keep us in the dark, not answered our concerns about Jub and tried to lead away/distract from the very real questions we have about the burning blade's operations. Just on an IC level, Grok knows that the burning blade has a lot of renegades, he's gone out and killed them (with one implying strongly that he still thought of himself as one of the clan under its leadership), he's right to have suspicions when he's been implied that his father intends to massacre this the clan elders, or that said elders are going to murder him.

Hell Grok only recently learned that the burning blade even has a base in Descolace!

I think you're mixing up, "cares for Grok" (he does) with "be straight with him" because for reasons right and wrong, he doesn't trust Grok's judgement and intentionally keeps him in the dark on a lot of things.

As for Thrall he isn't just shoring up political legitimacy yes he is doing that, but if that were all it was for then we'd not be in conflict nearly as much as it is. Its because the Burning Blade are fundamentally engaged in shady BS that Thrall's opted for this strategy. If they were a loyal clan then this would be going down in a very different manner.

Final bit as far as marches through the city goes, it is complicated. Its very much not friendly, and is an implict threat to not do things, but that is fundamentally the job of the Kor'kron, they're the warchief's bodyguards/enforcers. Grok compares it most to escorting prisoners, which I think is a reasonable assessment and one that can be made is accurate, the clan did fundamentally break the war chief's laws when you boil it down to the base level, laws which have been in place for two warchief's in fact. This fact is fairly indisputable, no matter how much feldad grinds his teeth about it.

As for the arena...well for one its not newly constructed

more refurbished, since its a massive blasted hole in the ground, but yeah its Thrall making a point to a lot of people about a lot of things.

Taijutsu_ said:
I mean, -I- don't know that OOC and I'm likely not unique in that. Props to you for knowing extensive warcraft lore, I guess. If you want to vote that way go for it. IC perspectives are more important to me personally on this quest, so that doesn't affect my decision-making either way.

Nope, entirely missed it during me wow playing days (I was an oblivious bugger back then so that might be more of the reason). However in quest been something that's been mentioned since before the burning blade was even picked as a potential clan option.

Fractious day used Neeru as an example of why clan loyality can be complex/dangerous and I think it was using him that made some people want to be burning blade in the first place (+ potential samurai orc.)

Even then we do have plenty of IC reasons to be highly suspicious of Fel-dad and the entire clan. Its sus as **** and even if feldad has Grok's best interests at heart, we've been on the receiving end of far too many death threats, fought too many clan members who saw themselves as loyal and witnessed them breaking too many laws even for Grok to not go "yeah this don't smell right."

FractiousDay · Apr 19, 2021

Taijutsu_ said:
Given that Thrall has objectively failed in a lot of Big Deal things recently, how loyal to him IC would we really be?

Xilentxium said:
I think Thrall is the best Orc in all of fiction

I would generally agree that Thrall is probably the best orc as you say, but that's also because Warcraft probably has the closest engagement with Orcish culture of any medium or franchise I can think of. You might cite Warhammer and it's variations but while they go into it a bit they don't make it 'human', Grimgor or Gazghul aren't really characters with relatable stories. LotR doesn't really do anything with orcs aside from brief touches, and occasionally things like TES do a bit but not much.

However, I don't think these views are mutually exclusive. Thrall can be an interesting and worthy character, a heroic character, but he can also be a poor leader. Yes he unites the clans and forges the Horde but he doesn't fix many of it's problems and he actively holds it back because of his own cultural guilt. Many issues are never confronted and this leads to two civil wars, which by any metric probably indicate that he's a poor leader. I've mentioned his issues previously but in short, pacifism and traditionalism, indeed atavism.

There are also specific issues, Feldad correctly notes that a shaman shouldn't be a political leader because they occasionally get knocked out for a few days. In this particular scenario Thrall took part in the ritual because he's the chief shaman currently, meaning he also got the backlash and was asleep for a few days while Neeru wandered about doing disaster relief. Thrall does eventually realise this issue which is why he resigns in Cata.

I do generally take a pretty poor view of Thrall's leadership, but it's also that the quest requires him to be antagonistic for dramatic effect, so I'm emphasising the negative social issues in the Horde. If I was trying to write something about how everyone was working together and stuff I'd emphasise other things, but this is Agency Quest, so we examine the issues of agency, in this case Thrall having particular personal issues and prejudices.

Netos said:
, matters will escalate and there will probably be a split,

So remember that was Feldad being paranoid and thinking he was about to get purged, therefore he was rallying what support he could etc. Thrall isn't planning to just march in and start smashing, so while yes there could be a split, it's likely to be the BB with a few others rather that multiple clans.

Netos said:
We and the public (and Thrall too) need someone to blame. A scary enemy can fit the role. Jubei'thos.

Problem is no one knows who he is. The BB do, the Blackrock do because he was leading their guys in Alterac, but no one else has heard of him. Some of the higher ups will have thought 'hm this does indeed seem something to keep an eye on' but to a lot of people this whole thing feels, at best, like a BB internal matter.

Netos said:
I wonder how a being made of corruption could persuade the centaurs to sacrifice themselves to purge corruption.

Different corruption. Jubei'thos is spooky but not Fely

Taijutsu_ said:
I mean, -I- don't know that OOC and I'm likely not unique in that. Props to you for knowing extensive warcraft lore, I guess. If you want to vote that way go for it. IC perspectives are more important to me personally on this quest, so that doesn't affect my decision-making either way.

So the quest certainly doesn't require OOC info, and indeed it shouldn't. I wouldn't want people making decisions on the basis of things too outside the character's knowledge. For example you couldn't do a write in saying 'go dig up this specific grave in Duskwood because you know this undead priest is there' and so on because obviously the character doesn't know that. Having said that though, even IC the BB are pretty suspicious and there's clearly more going on that Grok doesn't know about.

Doomed Wombat said:
Jub's presumably got charisma on him, he managed to convince a large chunk of the blackrock clan to follow him after all.

So in RoC Jubeithos has a blackrock banner. A minor point and I doubt a particularly loreful one but might imply he joined the blackrock rather than them joining him. The blackrock and the BB are pretty close generally though, there's BB bosses in the Blackrock Foundry raid in WoD for example.

Doomed Wombat said:
Fractious day used Neeru as an example of why clan loyality can be complex/dangerous and I think it was using him that made some people want to be burning blade in the first place (+ potential samurai orc.)

One thing I was reflecting on recently was what I would have done if you lot had picked 'unimportant warsong grunt #3' or similar. I suppose I could have still written some stuff to explore the themes but yes having only established a few things like Feldad being sus, the BB being sus in general and the tensions between different figures a lot of the plot basically writes itself. I can simply ask 'how do you reach X situation, what scenes are necessary to cover' that sort of thing. I'm somewhat surprised you're more likely to be exiled by the Horde generally rather than the BB as I was thinking initially so that's interesting.

Fallout5368 · Apr 19, 2021

[X] The Lie of Honour

Doomed Wombat · Apr 19, 2021

FractiousDay said:
I do generally take a pretty poor view of Thrall's leadership

mmm...if I were to give a deadly sin for it, Thrall would be sloth.

Not that he's lazy, more that he's how we say...set in his ways. He thinks orcs should be X, but the issue is he seems to have massive troubles grappling with the problems of his view and trying to implement it properly.

To whit

FractiousDay said:
pacifism and traditionalism, indeed atavism.

While a pacific by orcish standards only, his problem isn't so much traditionalism, as it is nostalgia. He seems to see the "modern" traditions of the orcs as decended from a glorious past before demon stuff got in there, so he wants to return the orcs to that, while also introducing new ideas. Instead he just ends up pissing a lot of people off

FractiousDay said:
So in RoC Jubeithos has a blackrock banner. A minor point and I doubt a particularly loreful one but might imply he joined the blackrock rather than them joining him. The blackrock and the BB are pretty close generally though, there's BB bosses in the Blackrock Foundry raid in WoD for example.

Not sure that really changes the core point.

Either Jub joined the clan and was charismatic/skilled enough to end up in charge of a big chunk of it, or he was enough of those things that many of them started following him and he changed it later.

Point is he's probably got something going in the diplo department

.

FractiousDay said:
Problem is no one knows who he is. The BB do, the Blackrock do because he was leading their guys in Alterac, but no one else has heard of him. Some of the higher ups will have thought 'hm this does indeed seem something to keep an eye on' but to a lot of people this whole thing feels, at best, like a BB internal matter.

Yeh. That's why I tried to frame bringing him in as a matter fundamentally connected to the burning blade (and really he is.) Its not a matter of turning him into the sole villain, its a matter of contrast. Acknowledging and admitting the bad in the clan, but also contrasting with Grok who isn't shying away from responsibility. It also has the benefit of demonstrating how dangerous being blindsided is.

FractiousDay said:
Different corruption. Jubei'thos is spooky but not Fely

Nother tick in the Scourge tally.

FractiousDay said:
I'm somewhat surprised you're more likely to be exiled by the Horde generally rather than the BB as I was thinking initially so that's interesting.

Quests do tend to not carry out as you expect them too, which is a lot of the fun.

Regardless Thrall ya a good guy its just a ****ing shame that you're currently the best option the orcs have for a leader. He'd be much happier teaching little shamanlings I think.

Nevill · Apr 19, 2021

FractiousDay said:
Nazgrel is dressed in his full regalia, the rich pelt of a wolf across his shoulders, the snarling, fanged face above his own as stand surrounded by his warriors, his axe on his shoulder.

"as he stands"?

Doomed Wombat said:
we've been on the receiving end of far too many death threats, fought too many clan members who saw themselves as loyal and witnessed them breaking too many laws even for Grok to not go "yeah this don't smell right."

...How many is "far too many"?

I do not recall fighting anyone but Darkstorm and his group of renegades who most certainly did not consider themselves loyal. The breakaway Blademasters couldn't be counted as such either. And... death threats?

Cryos said:
(even without us ordering a demon summoned the Centaurs could only summon Forneaus because the elements were being tortured for so long)

Was this stated anywhere? Forneus never gave the reason for why he accepted the summoning, or did I get that wrong?

While there is something Grok doesn't know, and he can feel being used by various parties while he stumbles around blind, I don't think he is at the point where he'd question whether his clan does more good than harm.

I am inclined to any choice that has Grok speak up, partially because the character must feel the clan worth saving (he's been daydreaming about resurrecting some of its traditions, and he personally owes late Akinos a debt of life), and partially because he is young, dumb and stubborn, and can't stand inaction even if it is in his best interests to shut up and stand back.

Orc Quest; or, A Critical Examination of Agency Through in Interactive Fiction (Warcraft)

Is the Water Free?

Let's go Darling!

The Abyss gazed back

The Abyss gazed back

Let's go Darling!

Existential Crisis Management

Let's go Darling!

Let's go Darling!

Let's go Darling!