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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Sovereign Hunt said:
Morghur just patted a dwarf on the head without killing him, a dwarf that we know for a fact is still loyal to/reverent of the Ancestor Gods.
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How do we know this? Read his mind recently did we?

Aside from that, no we do not because this is the edge of Hell, the dwarfs of Dun don't want out, our expedition leader abandoned us to go hug beastmen an our responsibility is to get the other people us home safe.
 
wrecksalot said:
It looks like they have a good idea, but that actually being Morghur, an agent of chaos is so unlikely its silly, I refuse to have gone halfway to hell only to turn back at the final hurdle because it looks bad, the hold being halfway to hell in the first place looked bad, we went on this expedition to see what was up with Karag Dum, so I say we see what's up with Karag Dum rather than assuming the worst out of ignorance.
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We found out what happened to Karag Dum and it doesn't look pretty. Everybody else in the expedition is likely ready and waiting to return home and I don't want to stop them. On whether it is or isn't Morghur I think it is far more likely to be real then what? Two runelords in a funny costume? It is almost certainly real. Our job here is done I just want to grab the grail and leave.
 
DragonParadox said:
How do we know this? Read his mind recently did we?

Aside from that, no we do not because this is the edge of Hell, the dwarfs of Dun don't want out, our expedition leader abandoned us to go hug beastmen an our responsibility is to get the other people us home safe.
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He literally said as much in his monologue. Is he an infallible judge of the severity of the hold's actions or a lying liar who lies? Because he can't be both, and either leads me to the conclusion that we must investigate.
 
Sovereign Hunt said:
Morghur just patted a dwarf on the head without killing him, a dwarf that we know for a fact is still loyal to/reverent of the Ancestor Gods. The entire knowledge base you're working off of was proven irrelevant literally in front of our eyes.

Which is why we have a duty to stay, and figure out what the hell is going on.
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BoneyM said:
7. No Magister may ever study the Forbidden Lores of the Daemonic Powers, nor the unholy ways of Necromancy, nor any other sorcery or witchcraft that utilises the wicked powers of Dark Magic. Any Magister found disregarding this Article is guilty of an Abominable Act and is both Heretic and Traitor and will be put to sword and fire immediately.
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If it involves any of that as the existence of Morghur should, we have a duty to not figure out what the hell is going on. And even if we can justify it to ourselves, we have to also justify it to the people around us.
 
storryeater said:
And ask someone from Ind and they'll have waaay different preconceptions about tigermen. Ask someeone from Araby and they'll tell you otherwise about binding daemons. Ask someone from Brettonia, they'll tell you some choice words about peasants rights or Ranald. Ask someone from Nekehara and they'll say a lot of things about undead that sound super heretical to everyone. And none of those are chaos/dhar poisoned as far as we know.

People learn by learning.
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...I give up.

I don't have the energy to ague with several people at once. Hopefully there is enough pressure from the rest of the council to leave this hellhole and the damned who live here and if not doubly hopefully we won't lose more people to death and worse because we lingered
 
Katahiraga said:
Why aren't people voting for theory Omega, its vital and explains why Borek is unharmed and Morghur is affectionate.?
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Omegahugger said:
Presumeably because they don't think it explains things well enough.

I wrote that post and even I admit that it is partially based on guesses and assumptions. If you think those do not apply (as many people do), then you obvious shouldn't vote for the conclusion derived from it.
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Actually it may be for a format reason. Personally I didn't vote because I'm not keeping up with the thread so I hit tally and read the existing ones, which Omegahugger (theory) has no description of.

Now that I went through search tool to find all the Omegahugger post since the update (which are a lot) I managed to find it and may vote for it.
Though while OOC I agree with the possibility it seems like a leap for IC. Does the Empire knows how his reincarnation works? And on dwarves?
 
DragonParadox said:
So do we risk the lives of not only ourselves but every man dwarf elf and dragon on his expedition by remaining in the deep wastes just so we can be fastidious about our duty?
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That is a way to describe what we came here for in the first place. Half the expedition probably expected to find a fallen Karak, with all inhabitants long dead, but they risked their lives on the expedition to find out.
 
adaer said:
That is one way to describe what we came here for in the first place. Half the expedition probably expected to find a fallen Karak, with all inhabitants long dead, but they risked their lives on the expedition to find out.
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One last note. My point is that 'expedition leader hugs beastman found on site' resembles a fallen Karak enough to turn around. This is success (minimal though it may be) and our fellow expedition members agree to judge from their first reactions.
 
Ithuriel said:
We found out what happened to Karag Dum and it doesn't look pretty. Everybody else in the expedition is likely ready and waiting to return home and I don't want to stop them. On whether it is or isn't Morghur I think it is far more likely to be real then what? Two runelords in a funny costume? It is almost certainly real. Our job here is done I just want to grab the grail and leave.
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Or one runelord in a funny costume, or a Dryad in a funny costume, or a purified Morghur no longer affiliated with the dark powers, or a Gronti in a funny costume, or something else. Our job was to find out the status of Karag Dum, and we haven't even set foot inside it yet.
 
DragonParadox said:
How do we know this? Read his mind recently did we?

Aside from that, no we do not because this is the edge of Hell, the dwarfs of Dun don't want out, our expedition leader abandoned us to go hug beastmen an our responsibility is to get the other people us home safe.
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He prayed to the Ancestor Gods right in front of us. Willing Chaos worshippers would sooner cut out their tongues than do that.

And in order: Irrelevant (we're here anyway), we don't actually know that (way to pull that little fact out of nowhere), I just explained why this doesn't matter, and our responsibility is, quote, to "ascertain the fate of Karag Dum", unquote. Now explain to me, without leaving out any details, exactly what happened to Karag Dum. You'll find that you can't, because we don't know what the fuck happened, and our express duty is to find out.

Edit: Well shit. Wished I finished this response faster.
 
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The only thing that can change here is for what they will get grudged.

Did they become chaos worshippers?
Did they perverse runic lore?
Did they strike a deal with beastmen?

Even if they are determined to fight against chaos and found the only way to do so they would still get grudge for covetting with enemy of dawi.

If you want to investigate, that fine by me, but be prepared to have moře losses among the expedition. We are still in chaos wastes where greater demons roam around.
 
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DragonParadox said:
One last note. My point is that 'expedition leader hugs beastman found on site' resembles a fallen Karak enough to turn around. This is success (minimal though it may be) and our fellow expedition members agree to judge from their first reactions.
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That's fair, and sorry for ending up arguing at you after you said you were done; I didn't see it until after I posted and refreshed the page.
 
DragonParadox said:
That is not true in the slightest. There are Chaos Sorcerers pretending to be servants of the Order Gods, false prayers and all everywhere. Off the top of my head there's a cult of Khornites faking praying to Ulric in his holy city, including anointed priests,
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Are we entirely sure that those prayers are actually false, and they don't just believe that Ulric is an aspect of Khorne?

Asking because in-universe there are many people who believe the Elven God Khaine is actually just Khorne with fake elf ears.
 
adaer said:
That is one way to describe what we came here for in the first place. Half the expedition probably expected to find a fallen Karak, with all inhabitants long dead, but they risked their lives on the expedition to find out.
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We did find out. That's the point. Finding out more than that seems to be about Mathilde's personal curiosity on magical theory rather than the practical demands of whether KD is salvageable by the Karaz Ankor. It's not, because of the presence of Morghur is anathema to them on a level not dissimilar to Hashut. This is corroborated by Borek resigning himself and telling us to tell the Karaz Ankor what happened.

A case can be made for how this has all sorts of strategic implications, but a new threat from the Chaos Wastes on the far side of the existing Chaos Dwarfholds is a drop in the bucket because the Chaos Wastes already have plenty of threats on or exceeding this level.
 
Omegahugger said:
Are we entirely sure that those prayers are actually false, and they don't just believe that Ulric is an aspect of Khorne?

Asking because in-universe there are many people who believe the Elven God Khaine is actually just Khorne with fake elf ears.
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According to Tome of Corruption yes. Those particular people think Ulric is a weak mewling thing and they are turning people to a proper war god. Ulric-Khorne syncretinism definitely exists among the Norscans though.
 
SpaceSloth said:
The only thing that can change here is for what they will get grudged.

Did they become chaos worshippers?
Did they perverse runic lore?
Did they strike a deal with beastmen?

Even if they are determined to fight against chaos and found the only way to do so they would still get grunge for covetting enemy of dawi.

If you want to investigate, that fine by me, but be prepared to have moře losses among the expedition. We are still in chaos wastes where greater demons roam around.
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If they get grudged or not is not for us to decide. If this is a perversion of runic lore is not for us to decide. They are almost certainly not chaos worshippers, or the Waystone would be filthy. I see a lot of ways that they wouldn't get grudged. It's not necessarily the most likely scenario, but as long as even a 1% chance exists, we have to try.
 
ReImagined said:
If it involves any of that as the existence of Morghur should, we have a duty to not figure out what the hell is going on. And even if we can justify it to ourselves, we have to also justify it to the people around us.
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{7. No Magister may ever study the Forbidden Lores of the Daemonic Powers, nor the unholy ways of Necromancy, nor any other sorcery or witchcraft that utilises the wicked powers of Dark Magic. Any Magister found disregarding this Article is guilty of an Abominable Act and is both Heretic and Traitor and will be put to sword and fire immediately.}

1. None of these are beastmen. These refer to Arcane Lores, and are forbidden so as to keep Magisters from being tempted by Dark Magic. Studying the enemies of man as enemies is not only legal, but actively encouraged.

2. {15. All Magisters are required to exert themselves to seek out and counter such destructive and anti-Imperial machinations, practices, peoples, and creatures that are beyond the means of civil authorities and Sigmar's Templars to counter, but yet still serve the Daemon Gods or advance the corruption of Imperial citizens through any sorcerous or infernal means. This shall be the prime concern and purpose of the Colleges, their Orders and the Magisters belonging to them, and to fail in this duty is to render void all the Articles of this document and make obsolete their permission to practice arcane arts without hindrance.}

...Huh. Just occurs to me that, by a certain reading of the Articles, one of the laws rendered void by the failure of Article 15 is Article 7 itself. Obviously nobody would ever point that out or try to use it as a legal defense, but...
 
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Sovereign Hunt said:
2.{15. All Magisters are required to exert themselves to seek out and counter such destructive and anti-Imperial machinations, practices, peoples, and creatures that are beyond the means of civil authorities and Sigmar's Templars to counter, but yet still serve the Daemon Gods or advance the corruption of Imperial citizens through any sorcerous or infernal means. This shall be the prime concern and purpose of the Colleges, their Orders and the Magisters belonging to them, and to fail in this duty is to render void all the Articles of this document and make obsolete their permission to practise arcane arts without hindrance.}
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Article 15 is not a suicide pact. Informing the Empire about this threat which is far from it's borders will do enough to satisfy it.
 
@BoneyM I'm kind of curious. We took two possible opportunities to interact with Borek out of a total, what, six or so action votes? Was the quality of explanation we got from him before he flipped his cape over his head and disappeared into the forest commensurate with the number of times we tried to get to know him? If we had mashed that like and subscribe button at every Borek-tunity, do you think he would have explained himself better? On the other side, did interacting with him twice get us a better explanation than once would have?
 
[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum may have found a way to create and control beastmen.
[x] THEORY: Gor Dum is either a mutated dwarf or controlled by a dwarf, look at how he reacted to Borek.
[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.


[X] ACTION: Turn back
I want to discover what happened here... but I can't risk more lives for something which will carry so little pratical purpose beyond make the memory of the Karag Dum dwarves better.
I may be pessimistic but even if we prove they're still uncorrupted, that they still fight chaos, that they are still loyal to the Karaz Ankor... it wont matter.
Assuming they are on our side, they are already doing good enough, I dont see how can we swing something to help them.
I replace their sacrifice with a possible necromancer Mathilde. Even if she manage to wield it without corruption thanks to whatever combination of traits... even if she uses it to protect the Empire... people will still brand her a traitor.
 
Sovereign Hunt said:
I know. I'm just arguing that studying Morghur won't count as a violation of Article 7, and if it technically does then Article 15 still takes priority.
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BoneyM said:
"You know what Herdstones are?" Lord Magister Luuk says after you enter the tower, not looking up from the battered kettle he was patiently watching.

"Gathering points for the Beastmen," you say. They'd come up a time or two in Regimand's travels.

"They're also the complete opposite of Waystones, which scares the shit out of anyone with sense." He scratches at his shoulder, where the angry red of a new scar is visible under his leathers. "If you can interrupt them while they're setting one up, and drag the thing away before they summon reinforcements, you've got a menhir attuned to Ghur but not yet tainted by their rituals. It was a stroke of luck to find one just as you asked for this." You suppress a smile. "I carved out a recess in the side of this one, and you need to fill it with heart-blood of wild animals spilled by the blade I left in it, that's the 'key' you asked for. Wild, mind - nothing domesticated. Once it's full, the chosen subject drinks it, and as long as they drink most of it the transformation should take hold. Tea?"
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I'm pretty sure studying Beastmen in this context has to count under Dark Magic.

And 'seek out and counter' seems pretty clearly to be the opposite of 'study how.'

If you still feel differently I think we can just agree to disagree here.
 
Sovereign Hunt said:
I know. I'm just arguing that studying Morghur won't count as a violation of Article 7, and if it technically does then Article 15 still takes priority.
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Trying to convince people that the dwarves possibly working with beastmen might.
Also, articles are a law, it will not help out here if everyone is convinced we have gone nuts or turned to chaos.
 
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