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Are we really taking this "Morghur reincarnates to resurrect" stuff as quest canon? Because as far as I understand, Mathilde has no idea about any such thing. She knows he's a big scary monster and recognizes him from description.
I think it's a big part of the legends of Morghur that we'd be familiar with IC.

Also, I don't think him not having been sighted for 200 years is particularly notable, in the sense that he does go "off the grid" for extended periods of time like that. That's not to say that the timing doesn't fit if he somehow made his way all the way from the Chaos Wastes to Bretonnia (Also, how'd he do that, if it's really him and he didn't reincarnate here?), but that it's not unusual to not hear from him in that long either.
 
Thought: weren't the Dum Runemasters supposedly trying to actually surpass the Ancestors? Or something like that. I wonder if they didn't succeed, and this is the result of that effort. Giant purification barrier sounds a lot like one of the Ancestor Works listed off during the Thorgrim interlude.

Actually, question. Has anybody thought about the divine artifacts that may or may not be present in Dum and how they could have influenced all this? Seems like that might help push us over the edge.
 
Ah, balls, I just realized something.

Much of the theories going around are assuming that Dum is desperate (and going to great lengths/radical kickflipping) to hold on in no small part because they're aware of the Waystone network and how important it is.

If it turns out that Dum's Runemasters are aware of what the Waystone energy is being used for, they might very well have the knowledge base to estimate how much energy goes in for each Waystone and how much energy would need to go out for each Hold/dwarf and have done that math.

Given that losing Vlag and Dum both put the whole thing into the net negatives and that Dum would logically be the larger input between them (more magic to absorb up north), it really highlights just why/how Dum would be so much more willing to radicalize themselves - they could reasonably conclude that losing Karag Dum would effectively pull the plug on the Karaz Ankor.

Of course, we've since reclaimed Vala-Azril-Ungol, which provides more than enough energy to offset the losses of Dum and Vlag - which means that all of the lengths Dum has gone to remain would have been for nought (assuming they were justified based on being necessary to keep the KA from making how much of a fossil they are more literal).

That's a really big deal, like, get a haircut level deal. :cry:
They still get to live even if they didn't save the Karaz Ankor.

That's a pretty good booby prize.
So, this Morghur has what could be a slayer crest that's fossilized into place?

Interesting.
Nah, more of a triceratops frill.

 
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Well, I'm happy to hear that we've at least had people guess parts of the truth. From a writing perspective, this speaks to a well-designed mystery, I suspect, that we could figure it out, but not quite entirely.

From a meta-guessing perspective, I feel like there have been more and more elaborate theories about why Dum hasn't fallen to Chaos than why it has, so that sorta supports the idea.
This doesn't, of course, mean that we can get complacent. Even a minor detail can mean getting into a fight, out here. And even Order-aligned Dum Dwarfs might not be inclined to entertain guests.
 
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Thought: weren't the Dum Runemasters supposedly trying to actually surpass the Ancestors? Or something like that. I wonder if they didn't succeed, and this is the result of that effort. Giant purification barrier sounds a lot like one of the Ancestor Works listed off during the Thorgrim interlude.

Actually, question. Has anybody thought about the divine artifacts that may or may not be present in Dum and how they could have influenced all this? Seems like that might help push us over the edge.
They gave themselves the title of Runemasters instead of Runelords which is what Thungni gave to his son, which has been interpreted as them saying they are declaring that title insufficient and claiming they are better than the first Runelord that Thungni himself personally taught, which is arguably heretical or close to it. It's unknown if that's what they were actually trying to say or if that's the interpretation spread by their detractors.
 
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Are we really taking this "Morghur reincarnates to resurrect" stuff as quest canon? Because as far as I understand, Mathilde has no idea about any such thing. She knows he's a big scary monster and recognizes him from description.
Seems too far fetched.

What is solid facts is that
- the Dhar levels are lower than ambient (which decreases likelihood of it being true Morghur as he should not decrease corruption),
- that the area is warmer than Wastes around (whether enough to let forest grow out naturally or forest is magic is unclear)
- Dum energy was flowing to the Vlag, so waystone is functional and not corrupt
- there was a chorus of beastmen voices from the forest responding to Morgue, although Mathilde lacks knowledge of beastmen to verify anything beyond that
- each Dawi hold has Rune of Valaya which, combined with stone and with Dawi personal ritual stuff, protects Dawi from ambient magic
- we have an example of personal scale rune of Valaya removing Dharma by burning it
- Mathilde is not immune to illusions, so we cannot rule out everything in here being one
- local Kurgan consider it normal ish to try your might against Dum (ooc both Kurgan on 6 on d6 had option of joining our road trip, which may or may not matter)
- Borek was not surprised and considered the events in Dum a great shame (possibly greater than shopping in Uzkulak)
- judging by Vlag, it is possible to maintain bubble of reality in warp itself, which may or may not have implications for ability to sustain higher reality levels in chaos wastes
- Runesmiths of Dum were radical compared to orthodox Karaz Ankor tradition
- mountain range disappeared, instead we have a mountain standing in oasis within a desert within Wastes; area may or may not be a crater, we have no evidence


Am I missing anything from the list of stuff which is not theory but rather facts as far as we see them?
 
*cracks knuckles*

Alright, let's do this. I'll include every theory that I see in the vote tally, plus a few others that I know have come up despite not being listed there, and then collectively we can poke through and see if there are any particularly compatible combinations.

SECTION A - Morghur.
  1. "Morghur" is a fake...
    1. ... created through illusions and runic trickery.
    2. ... created through induced mutations...
      1. ... using a captured chaos grail.
      2. ... using radical runecraft.
  2. The actual Morgur is helping Karag Dum...
    1. ... because the dwarves have sworn fealty to him.
    2. ... by willingly giving them assistance for purifying him...
      1. ... and thus restoring him to other some state he had before being corrupted by Chaos. [NEW]
    3. ... because he was raised by Karag Dum...
      1. ... because he was born there to a dwarf.
      2. ... because he was born to one of the local Dolgan tribes and captured by the dwarfs as an infant.
      3. ... because he was created by Karag Dum from the start.
    4. ... through use of runecraft to bind him, shard dragon style.
    5. ... by having his body be possessed by a dwarf.
  3. "Morgur" is a class of entity, not an individual ... [NEW]
    1. ... specifically, a (Ghur and/or Gyran?) elemental. [NEW]
SECTION B - Alliance.
  1. Karag Dum made an alliance with forces that the rest of the Karaz Ankor would not accept...
    1. ...and have fully fallen to Chaos.
    2. ...and have a tentative alliance with the Beastmen.
    3. ...and worked with the High Elves (and/or Wood Elves).
SECTION C - Terrain.
  1. The desert...
    1. ... is a spacial disjunction to somewhere with a desert, like Araby.
    2. ... is an effect intentionally created by Dum's enemies to restrict the forest.
    3. ... is an effect intentionally created by Dum to cut Morghur off from other forests.
    4. ... is a result of Dum burning away massive amounts of Dhar, like Mathilde's belt does.
  2. The forest...
    1. ... is actually present in the Chaos Wastes...
      1. ... and was created by Morghur.
      2. ... and was created by elven cooperation with Dum.
    2. ... is actually a spacial disjunction to somewhere more forested...
      1. ... Athel Loren.
    3. ... is a closed off bubble of the warp that has had new properties imposed on it...
      1. ... with runecraft, like Gazul's realm.
      2. ... with runecraft and magecraft in concert.
      3. ... by Morghur.
  3. The surrounding mountains...
    1. ... were annihilated.
    2. ... are still present, but not visible due to spacial disjunction.

Am I missing anything?
 
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Thought: maybe Morghur's existence is something like Galrauch, the first Chaos Dragon, or that one captured Mammoth God who got captured by the Norscans or Kurgans or whatever. He's a cloven demigod, but got fused or possessed by a daemon like Galrauch did by Fateclaw, or enslaved and corrupted like the way the Mammoth God did.

The Runemasters of Karag Dum: "Allow us to introduce ourselves."

And they put the daemon out of him. Or shunt the corruption out, lock it away, or cause it to be burnt away, or something.

Or maybe Morghur is like the equivalent of... Well. Morghur is to Herdstones or Waystones, what a Treeman is to the Oak of Ages, or the Green Knight is to the holy places of Bretonnia.

Or Bok is to Karak Eight Peaks. Basically, like an Elemental being that is bound to a location or place.

And the Runemasters did... something... with Karag Dum's Waystone, to make it viable for summoning a non-corrupt version of Cor-Dum.

...
...
... Maybe Morghur is an Incarnate Elemental of Beasts? Or Life? Or a mix of Ghyran-Ghur?

It's just, when the Beastmen summon an Incarnate Elemental of Beasts, well, obviously they corrupt him with Dhar; so you have an Incarnate Elemental of Dhar-Ghur/Ghyran.

And of course when normal Elementalists or Amber Wizards summon an Incarnate Elemental of Beasts, it looks nothing like fucking Morghur. Or maybe it does, and people try to keep that very very quiet.

So maybe the Dwarfs of Karag Dum to summon an Incarnate Elemental of Beasts. Or, maybe they were able to stop Cor-Dum in his tracks, and transform/purify him back into an Incarnate Elemental.


In fact, I'm suggesting a new theory:

THEORY: Maybe this is an Incarnate Elemental? (Presumably of Beasts.) Maybe normal Morghur is due to Beastmen corrupting an Incarnate Elemental summoning with Dhar. Either this is a pure Incarnate Elemental, boosted by an entire mountain-sized Waystone, or a Morghur that was captured and the Dhar parts purified or removed or whatever.

Either of Beasts, Life, or both Beasts and Life. Maybe the usual Morghur is a Dhar-corrupted Incarnate Elemental of Beasts and/or Life. And this is either a Morghur that was stopped, captured, purified, and turned most of the way back into an Incarnate Elemental... or the Dwarfs of Karag Dum used their Waystone to summon an Incarnate Elemental.

It's just that when you use a Waystone to summon one, summon a big enough Incarnate, it looks a lot like Morghur. Or maybe Morghur is what happens when you mix Ghur and Ghyran; you naturally get a ton of Dhar, because it's mixing two Winds of magic. But the Dwarfs know how to get rid of and purify the Dhar...

Somebody feel free to make my theory a little bit better-worded, then I'll vote for it.

That would explain why Morghur can just birth new life everywhere; because he's an Incarnate Elemental not just of Beasts, but of Life as well. And also would explain why he hungers for the Oak of Ages and Ariel; because Ariel and the Oak are pure Ghyran. If Morghur were Ghyran and/or Ghur, maybe that's why he hungers for the Oak.

I started off by assuming that this Morghur might be an Incarnate Elemental of Beasts only, and the normal Morghur a Dhar-corrupted Incarnate Elemental of Beasts, but then I wondered whether adding Ghyran into it might help the theory out. Maybe Ghyran and Ghur mixing, and creating Dhar, is the reason Morghur is insane. Maybe it's not the two mixing, but because Beastmen deliberately add in Dhar into it. Maybe the transformation and creating of Beastmen and Spawn is a result of various winds plus Dhar. Who knows.


Either way, I think I've figured out one possibility: the normal Morghur, Cor-Dum, might be what happens when Beastmen summon an Incarnate Elemental of Beasts (and/or Life?). Except being Beastmen, obviously they corrupt it with Dhar.

Or maybe Morghur is what happens when Incarnate Elementals of Life and Beasts go wrong in some way. I don't know.
 
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No, those parts are spinning off into "completely castle built on air" land IMO. No support whatsoever.
Yeah, it's mega-speculative. I'm trying to explain the greeting/interaction between Borek and Morghur (or "Morghur"), and that makes as much sense as anything else I've seen anyone come up with. I should have phrased as something more like "experience with" or "experience with fighting" than "study of" though, since that's what I actually meant and I can see how the word I used instead would be misleading.
 
*cracks knuckles*

Alright, let's do this. I'll include every theory that I see in the vote tally, plus a few others that I know have come up despite not being listed there, and then collectively we can poke through and see if there are any particularly compatible combinations.

SECTION A - Morghur.
  1. "Morghur" is a fake...
    1. ... created through illusions and runic trickery.
    2. ... created through induced mutations...
      1. ... using a captured chaos grail.
      2. ... using radical runecraft.
  2. Morgur is helping Karag Dum...
    1. ... because the dwarves have sworn fealty to him.
    2. ... by willingly giving them assistance for purifying him.
    3. ... because he was raised by Karag Dum...
      1. ... because he was born there to a dwarf.
      2. ... because he was born to one of the local Dolgan tribes and captured by the dwarfs as an infant.
    4. ... through use of runecraft to bind him, shard dragon style.
    5. ... by having his body be possessed by a dwarf.
SECTION B - Alliance.
  1. Karag Dum made an alliance with forces that the rest of the Karaz Ankor would not accept...
    1. ...and have fully fallen to Chaos.
    2. ...and have a tentative alliance with the Beastmen.
    3. ...and worked with the High Elves (and/or Wood Elves).
SECTION C - Terrain.
  1. The desert...
    1. ... is a spacial disjunction to somewhere with a desert, like Araby.
    2. ... is an effect intentionally created by Dum's enemies to restrict the forest.
    3. ... is an effect intentionally created by Dum to cut Morghur off from other forests.
    4. ... is a result of Dum burning away massive amounts of Dhar, like Mathilde's belt does.
  2. The forest...
    1. ... is actually present in the Chaos Wastes...
      1. ... and was created by Morghur.
      2. ... and was created by elven cooperation with Dum.
    2. ... is actually a spacial disjunction to somewhere more forested...
      1. ... Athel Loren.
    3. ... is a closed off bubble of the warp that has had new properties imposed on it...
      1. ... with runecraft, like Gazul's realm.
      2. ... with runecraft and magecraft in concert.
      3. ... by Morghur.
  3. The surrounding mountains...
    1. ... were annihilated.
    2. ... are still present, but not visible due to spacial disjunction.

Am I missing anything?
You're missing Borek's entrance and how "Morghur" intimately stroked Borek in a manner that among Dwarves inidcates close bonds on the level of immediate family or lovers, and how Borek seemed to take this just fine.

I feel this is critically important information, because it's the only information that Karag Dum could not have planned for outsiders to see, and it is my belief that it gives away the whole trick.
 
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Right, but I think I included every proposed explanation for that in my list, didn't I?
I think if you're planning on going through the theories to see what fits together, you ought to take into account the only(?) explicit information we have that's not on that list, and to see what doesn't fit it. This is a logic puzzle, and while there might be red herrings, it's logic and deductive reasoning that'll solve this.
 
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Refining vote again based on new theory crafting (mostly just a few word changes):

[X] THEORY: Morghur has been linked to Karag Dum's waystone, which is acting as a psudo-herdstone that is burning away Dhar instead of creating it. Morghur is possibly cleansed of Dhar, and sees dwarfs of Karag Dum as family. The waystone may have been the cause of the weird geography via Geomancy, and might be weaponized. Based on Boreks last words, this was a longstanding contingency plan held by the dwarfs of Karag Dum. He is ashamed because it's a desecration of one of the greatest relics of the Ancestor Gods, as well as binding the fate of Karag Dum to a Beastmen Demi-God.

[x] ACTION: Investigate further.

Hmm, not 100% happy with that, but it'll have to do for now.

IIRC the Colleges don't have any indications that the geomantic web even exists.

The Colleges (and therefore Mathilde) don't know what the Geomantic Web is, assuming that's what you meant by Geomancy. Waystones are also classified, so this would be revealing the existence of the dwarven network to people who aren't in the know.
 
Am I missing anything?
The fact he acts as if KD is a Herdstone could mean they are using KD's Waystone as one, possibly to power their magical forest and allow it to grow here, even if it isn't one by a strict technical definition, as it's not corrupted.

It could be simply drawing from it, or it could be a bit altered as it doesn't need to be corrupt to be a useful magic stone thing, like the dragon altar was a magic-but-not-evil almost-Herdstone.
 
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The fact he acts as if KD is a Herdstone could mean they are using KD's Waystone as one, possibly to power their magical forest and allow it to grow here, even if it isn't one by a strict technical definition, as it's not corrupted.

It could be simply drawing from it, or it could be a bit altered it doesn't need to be corrupt to be a useful magic stone thing, like the dragon altar was a magic-but-not-evil almost-Herdstone.
I think BoneyM was explicit earlier that it was being treated as a herdstone, but wasn't actually one.
 
*cracks knuckles*

Alright, let's do this. I'll include every theory that I see in the vote tally, plus a few others that I know have come up despite not being listed there, and then collectively we can poke through and see if there are any particularly compatible combinations.
I would help, but have a rather nasty headache at the moment and am doing my best to suppress it, an effort which logic puzzles are rather detrimental to. Good luck to you all though, and remember:
I've got three bookmarked posts that collectively get you to within putting range of the truth.
This is perhaps the biggest hint of all. Also suggests we've gotten rather close, if I'm interpreting "putting range" correctly. So maybe look for things that could be expanded just a little bit more?
 
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