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[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has somehow tricked or compelled Morghur to fight the Kurgan tribes.
 
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The next most popular theories are all variants of these scenarios. Given that it literally doesn't matter which scenario is true, there's no point in gathering more information because it doesn't change anything.
Generally we are sticking around for the same reason clearing Vlag was important - we have no idea what is going on, and we need to know enough to report on if this is something that can be ignored or is a terrifying threat in its infancy.
 
...Random thought, but this implies Mathilde already thought something fucky was going on? Any particular reason why, or just her typical Grey Wizard tendencies of never assuming anything coming into play?
Because of the stuff he said to her before he walked out there. Definitely seemed more like "we serve Chaos now" then "I'm going to go die now".
 
About where along the way would be most comparable in Dhar level?

'Earlier' is the best you'll get. Mathilde was more focused on Rite of Way and the Yusak than trying to invent a measurement system for the bad magic.

...Random thought, but this implies Mathilde already thought something fucky was going on? Any particular reason why, or just her typical Grey Wizard tendencies of never assuming anything coming into play?

What he said before he vamoosed didn't fit with him acting out of despair because his people died in valiant battle against Chaos.
 
[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.

[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.

[X] THEORY: How and why does not matter. The expedition's responsibility is to bring word to Karag Dum of the state of Karaz Ankor if any yet live and to bring back any message, refugees, or other explanation from Karag Dum. Borek has fulfilled the first responsibility. We should attempt to to fulfill the second, even if just by observation and waiting a decent time for any messenger from Karag Dum to emerge.

[X] THEORY: The forest, that looks seemingly normal and Morghur indicates potential involvment of the wood elves and probably the high elves too, if the high elves were the last group to hunt Morghur down.

[X] THEORY: The dwarves of Karag Dum managed to, somehow based on the desert borders stabilize reality contradicting the nature of the chaos wastelands


[X] THEORY: Omegahugger


[X]THEORY: A pseudo-Herdstone - the dwarves managed to create or use their secret resoruces to reverse engineer it, which combined with Morghur, lets them control nomadic beastmen or even create their own beastmen from wildlife or livestock.

[X] THEORY: The burning of Dhar or purifying it by whatever process Karag Dum has makes the temperature higher, could potentially be the reason why the desert exist.

[X] THEORY: Karag Dum radicalize themselves in a effort to protect the rest of the dwarves, by providing a secret resouce, that I'm not allowed to mention.




[X] ACTION: Gain more information.

[x] ACTION: Investigate further.

[x] ACTION: Politely ask Morghur to be granted entrance into Karak Dum.

[x] ACTION: I'm going to have to check this out.

[X] Actions: Study
-bones: look for causes of death, evidence of mutation,
- plants and fauna, identify speciments, see if they are
linked to Athel Lorien,
- Investigate the desert, and look for the source.
- Have the wizards, find signs of chaos taints and Dhar in this enviroment, but be sure not to stray too far.
- Have the expedition fortify to play along with the kurgans' expectation of preparing for a fight.
- be sure for the rest of the expedition to set up a base somewhere a bit far in case a hasty retreat or even a emergency reinforcements.
- Get Asarnil to help you spot signs of elven activity, and even help you leverage the magical seed you got just in case, you need it to get the wood elves to parley.
- Get some wizards to help identify the nature of beastmen and compare it to Mathilde's observation of the supposed beastmen of Karag Dum.
 
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So, hypothetical timeline:
1. About 200 years ago, Dum Dwarfs somehow get their hands on Morghur. Perhaps with Elgi help, perhaps he was reborn as a Dwarf, perhaps he was reborn as a Kurgan and they kidnapped him.
2. They figure out a highly heretical plan to use him to attract Beastmen to protect them and divert Chaos forces
3. They use Rune of Valaya's Vengeance or something similar to purify Morghur and the surrounding area, which is what causes the desert.
3a. It's possible Morghur also turned the mountain into a pure-Ghur herdstone
4. Either with Morghur's Ghur powers or just conventionally a forest was planted
5. Morghur + forest = lotsa Beastmen. Possibly even Chaos-worshipping Beastmen, but their loyalty to Morghur likely overrides that
6. The Kurgan don't quite get the significance of this (or do they?) and seek to test themselves against Morghur

The only thing missing is where the mountains went. Maybe they weren't in the reality-bubble and sorta migrated away?
 
The problem is it doesn't explain Borek's actions. Assuming that he knows that this beastman is to be trusted, he doesn't let it stroke hi like it's family.

Actually, that's another point - Morghur stroked Borek in a manner of great intimacy specific to the dwarves. It would be weird for anyone not familiar with Dwarven customs to even know that this was a thing to do.

It may have the taint burned out before Borek left and it may have gotten overly friendly to Dawi in the interim.

Ok, it still doesn't explain everything, but it has fewer and more easily filled gaps than any other theory, so until we get a better one, it is my favourite.
 
Anyway, now that I am slowly becoming partially sane again...
(who am i kidding? i am not and will never be sane again. i have literally been muttering "Cor-Dum" under my breath since i first read his name two chapters ago. i am succumbing to Chaos. please send sacrifices help!)

Here's my list of questions:
  • What exactly are the criteria that Mathilde used to categorize the being in front of us as Cor-Dum/Morghul?
  • How big is "Morghul"?
  • What are the distances and dimensions of the scene in front of us?
    • How large is the desert?
    • How large is the forest?
    • How does the lonely mountain look? Are there any leftover indications that it was a Dwarf Hold? Does it look more like Karak Vlag before we pulled the plug? Something else?
    • How high up are we and how steep is the descent into the crater
    • Can we see anything going on on the other edges of the crater?
    • How far are "Morghul" and that one remaining mountain from us?
    • How long did Borek walk before cuddling with his furry buddy?
  • Who has inherited command over the engineers and gunnery crew from Gotrek?
    • Are they in the Council?
      • If not, why not?
  • What have the Rangers and two groups of Knights been doing ever since we left Dolgan territory?
    • What have their three commanders been doing?
  • What the fucking fuck is fucking fuck? Ignore that last question. There's no point to it. There's no point to an... Ignore that last question.
 
alright not entirely sure if my idea thonk works out but here we go.

Does dhar stay in the remains of the dead? Even in skellies?

I ask this because if that is so then it is reasnoble to assume that the Kurgen have Dhar for days and mutations and such so they would die with Dhar perhaps infussed into their remains and bones.

If such is true i say we look into the skellies of the Kurgan and see if theirs any Dhar on them. It may be a long shot but if the dhar burner idea is true then maybe all the kurgans have no dhar on them and that would sort of be suspicous considerig their kurgen in the chaos wastes with mutations for days.

@BoneyM is my thoughts true on Dhar staying on corpses beyond death? Even staying in bone when flesh is long gone?
 
So, hypothetical timeline:
1. About 200 years ago, Dum Dwarfs somehow get their hands on Morghur. Perhaps with Elgi help, perhaps he was reborn as a Dwarf, perhaps he was reborn as a Kurgan and they kidnapped him.
2. They figure out a highly heretical plan to use him to attract Beastmen to protect them and divert Chaos forces
3. They use Rune of Valaya's Vengeance or something similar to purify Morghur and the surrounding area, which is what causes the desert.
3a. It's possible Morghur also turned the mountain into a pure-Ghur herdstone
4. Either with Morghur's Ghur powers or just conventionally a forest was planted
5. Morghur + forest = lotsa Beastmen. Possibly even Chaos-worshipping Beastmen, but their loyalty to Morghur likely overrides that
6. The Kurgan don't quite get the significance of this (or do they?) and seek to test themselves against Morghur

The only thing missing is where the mountains went. Maybe they weren't in the reality-bubble and sorta migrated away?
Potentially any beastsmen that enter the zone may also be purified.
 
Yup, but that's how the logic shakes out.
Eh, the 'Runesmith in a costume' theory fails to explain a bunch of stuff.
Regardless, 'Borek didn't get mulched or mutated' suggests that it's not Morghur, yes -- this does not remotely imply that it's safe for other Dawi, let alone humans. Particularly, recall the time Borek's cousin (who would thus have been a noble) got stranded outside the Hold for weeks because he forgot the right passphrases.
 
Observation about the effects being similar to what Dawi using the Rune of Valaya every hold has to purify the environment around them makes sense to me. It burns away Dhar - just like our rune - and vents the heat, creating oasis of temperate forest and making desert out of other stuff. It's not an ideal fit, but it's an explanation.

[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.
[X] THEORY: How and why does not matter. The expedition's responsibility is to bring word to Karag Dum of the state of Karaz Ankor if any yet live and to bring back any message, refugees, or other explanation from Karag Dum. Borek has fulfilled the first responsibility. We should attempt to to fulfill the second, even if just by observation and waiting a decent time for any messenger from Karag Dum to emerge.

[X] ACTION: Investigate by following the waystone ley line. It will be your guide through any possible illusion or trickery.
[X] ACTION: Wait for at least two days and see if Karag Dum sends out an emissary. Borek will report back, and perhaps someone inside will feel less ashamed than he does.
 
I look at the results and merge together the sufficiently similar ones and come up with a suitable cut-off point and Mathilde presents everything above that point.

The 'manage votes' button at the bottom of the vote tally, it lets you merge options together. I've tested it and if someone is voting for two things and those two get merged together, their vote is only counted once instead of being doubled.
while this 'theory vote' mess is very interesting to look at.

I hope this will be the last such experiment for awhile....
 
Rather than proposing a new theory, I'm going to look at what we should do if any of these theories prove true

[] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.

If this is true, then Karag Dum will never be accepted back into the Karaz Ankor. Contact with them will not be maintained (even if it were possible). At best, Dum will be ignored, at worst... they will still be effectively ignored because sending an army to destroy them is impossible over this kind of distance, so they go at the bottom of the grudge list.


The corresponding action is:
[] ACTION: Return home, report that Karag Dum still stands but is lost to the Karaz Ankor, and continues to fight with the Kurgans.

[] THEORY: Karag Dum has somehow tricked or compelled Morghur to fight the Kurgan tribes.

If this is true, the same situation as above applies. Messing with the dark powers or binding beast men is completely unacceptable. Even if it's not as bad as binding demons, it's still "burn them all and salt the earth" territory to the dwarves.

The corresponding action is:
[] ACTION: Return home, report that Karag Dum still stands but is lost to the Karaz Ankor, and continues to fight with the Kurgans.


[] THEORY: Karag Dum is fallen, and has made a pact with Morghur.

If this is true, then Karag Dum will never be accepted back into the Karaz Ankor. Contact with them will not be maintained (even if it were possible). At best, Dum will be ignored, at worst... they will still be effectively ignored because sending an army to destroy them is impossible over this kind of distance, so they go at the bottom of the grudge list.

If there is any concern with them contaminating the waystone network it can be monitored at Vlag, and one of the intervening waystones can be detonated to cut them off if anything contaminated starts coming through. This is probably a precaution that will be taken in any case.


The corresponding action is:
[] ACTION: Return home, report that Karag Dum still stands but is lost to the Karaz Ankor, and continues to fight with the Kurgans.



The next most popular theories are all variants of these scenarios. Given that it literally doesn't matter which scenario is true, there's no point in gathering more information because it doesn't change anything.

[X] ACTION: Return home, report that Karag Dum still stands but is lost to the Karaz Ankor, and continues to fight with the Kurgans.
[X] ACTION: Turn back
The difference between these and the people advocating for more scouting is a vain hope that only some of the dwarves in there are lost to the Karaz Ankor, and that some of them might be salvageable.
 
Okay. I think I have my favorite options selected.

[x] ACTION: Wait for at least two days and see if Karag Dum sends out an emissary. Borek will report back, and perhaps someone inside will feel less ashamed than he does.
[x] THEORY: How and why does not matter. The expedition's responsibility is to bring word to Karag Dum of the state of Karaz Ankor if any yet live and to bring back any message, refugees, or other explanation from Karag Dum. Borek has fulfilled the first responsibility. We should attempt to to fulfill the second, even if just by observation and waiting a decent time for any messenger from Karag Dum to emerge.
 
[X] ACTION: Return home, report that Karag Dum still stands but is lost to the Karaz Ankor, and continues to fight with the Kurgans.
[X] ACTION: Turn back
 
'Earlier' is the best you'll get. Mathilde was more focused on Rite of Way and the Yusak than trying to invent a measurement system for the bad magic.

Though given the nature of the experiments he described to us, van Horstmann might have brought just such a measurement system with him and have been using it along the way. If it was relevant, I guess we could ask him.
 
[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has somehow tricked or compelled Morghur to fight the Kurgan tribes.
[X] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
 
[X] ACTION: Investigate by following the waystone ley line. It will be your guide through any possible illusion or trickery.

[X] ACTION: Wait for at least two days and see if Karag Dum sends out an emissary. Borek will report back, and perhaps someone inside will feel less ashamed than he does.

[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.

[X] THEORY: How and why does not matter. The expedition's responsibility is to bring word to Karag Dum of the state of Karaz Ankor if any yet live and to bring back any message, refugees, or other explanation from Karag Dum. Borek has fulfilled the first responsibility. We should attempt to to fulfill the second, even if just by observation and waiting a decent time for any messenger from Karag Dum to emerge.

[x] ACTION: I'm going to have to check this out.
 
It may have the taint burned out before Borek left and it may have gotten overly friendly to Dawi in the interim.

Ok, it still doesn't explain everything, but it has fewer and more easily filled gaps than any other theory, so until we get a better one, it is my favourite.
Eh, the 'Runesmith in a costume' theory fails to explain a bunch of stuff.
Regardless, 'Borek didn't get mulched or mutated' suggests that it's not Morghur, yes -- this does not remotely imply that it's safe for other Dawi, let alone humans. Particularly, recall the time Borek's cousin (who would thus have been a noble) got stranded outside the Hold for weeks because he forgot the right passphrases.
Please explain what "Runesmith in a costume/mutated to look like Morghur" fails to explain. I made an effortpost about it a while back, and as far as I can tell it is the only explanation that doesn't fail to explain part of the scene.
 
[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.
 
Please explain what "Runesmith in a costume/mutated to look like Morghur" fails to explain. I made an effortpost about it a while back, and as far as I can tell it is the only explanation that doesn't fail to explain part of the scene.
And I made a whole effortpost in response :V.
Specifically, see point B below.

Alright, time for an effort post!
Boney is an excellent world-builder, as we can all agree. Thus, even if we don't know exactly what's going on, we can reasonably expect that whatever is happening is consistent with the facts we've gathered (up to illusions, etc). Thus, let's follow the maxim 'Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
Facts (in no particular order):
1: Borek is significantly more ashamed of whatever happened here than he was of direct commercial dealings with Chaos Dwarves. Additionally, he was resigned, rather than surprised, upon seeing Morghur.
2: Karag Dum is no longer part of a mountain range, and is now at the bottom of a crater, surrounded by (temperate, not arboreal...) forests with a sudden demarcation to desert.
3: Karag Dum is exuding an environmentally massive amount of heat, described as a "hot, gritty wind that seems to be blowing directly into [Mathilde's] face."
4: There's a whole bunch of bones and banners sitting outside the area, and it's a known spot to challenge Morghur for the favor of the Dark Gods.
5: Morghur greeted Borek with an intimate gesture, and Borek let it happen.
6: "As you watch reality flinch away from him, Morghur the Shadowgave, immortal demigod of the Beastmen, bellows a warbling prayer to the mountain that has become his Herdstone, and from the trees countless more voices join him."
7: There's less Dhar here than in other areas of the waste.

Theories:
A: Karag Dum managed to trap/bind Morghur.
This theory is inconsistent with [5, 7]: Morghur is a chaotic evil Beastman demigod. He ain't caressing nobody, and he ain't reducing Dhar taint.
B: Karag Dum is impersonating Morghur with e.g. a Runesmith
The smallest issue is that this naively seems to contradict 6 & 1, to a greater or lesser degree: how and why would a Runesmith let out a prayer to a Herdstone? It's possible that this is just poetic license, but if it's not, then that's an issue. I'm also not convinced that tricking beastmen into playing defense is so much worse than trading with Chaos Dwarves.
A slightly larger issue is that this doesn't account for how Karag Dum has kept the beastmen from doing the usual 'mad offerings, chieftains scratching their name on it in Dark Tongue, etc' thing.
The largest issue, however, for me is that this theory is incomplete. It doesn't begin to explain 2, 3, or 4. This means there's a big missing piece (or several) to the puzzle, somewhere. 'Runelord Illusions' doesn't explain how or why the Dawi of Karag Dum built/maintained a temperate forest in the fucking chaos wastes, deleted a mountain range, and transported their mountain to the bottom of a weirdly even crater. It also doesn't explain (at all) why it would be throwing off so much heat.
C: [ELGI INTERFERENCE] + or - Impersonating or taming or raising Morghur
This is the one that makes the most sense to me. It doesn't directly contradict any of the facts that we've gathered, but it also begins to address why and how Karag Dum may have semi-transported itself to a different place. Magic + Runes also opens up a vast possibility space for how they might do things and allows the possibility (if this is Athel Loren) for these being e.g. dryads in an illusion. It also very conveniently fits the timeline Boney gave us for Morghur.
 
  • What exactly are the criteria that Mathilde used to categorize the being in front of us as Cor-Dum/Morghul?
Big horned guy with a frill and a claw-hand that makes reality shudder.

  • How big is "Morghul"?

At least eight feet tall, perhaps taller.

  • What are the distances and dimensions of the scene in front of us?
    • How large is the desert?
    • How large is the forest?
    • How does the lonely mountain look? Are there any leftover indications that it was a Dwarf Hold? Does it look more like Karak Vlag before we pulled the plug? Something else?
    • How high up are we and how steep is the descent into the crater
    • Can we see anything going on on the other edges of the crater?
    • How far are "Morghul" and that one remaining mountain from us?
    • How long did Borek walk before cuddling with his furry buddy?

Variations on 'big' and 'far'. If it turns out we really need a topographical map I'll sit down and make one but I'm terrible at 'eyeballing' that sort of thing. The mountain looks like a normal mountain, but that's common for Karaks, apart from the entrance (which would be somewhere under the treeline) Dwarves prefer to preserve the natural beauty of a mountain. The slope is fairly gentle, sand doesn't allow that steep an incline. Nothing is visible on the other edges from here.

  • Who has inherited command over the engineers and gunnery crew from Gotrek?
    • Are they in the Council?
      • If not, why not?

Strictly speaking the chain of command is 'Borek is the Thane' and that's it. The Council is an unofficial institution that exists because if push comes to shove, Borek's not entirely confident he'd be the one doing the shoving, so he's trying to keep everyone on the same page. With Gotrek's death, the remaining Engineers probably aren't going to have Gotrek's willingness to buck authority, so that's no longer necessary for them.

  • What have the Rangers and two groups of Knights been doing ever since we left Dolgan territory?
    • What have their three commanders been doing?

Ever since the biting house incident, the Knights and Winter Wolves have both been outriders for the Expedition. The Rangers' main focus has been keeping watch at night.

@BoneyM is my thoughts true on Dhar staying on corpses beyond death? Even staying in bone when flesh is long gone?

Depends on the environment. Here where there's a constant drain on all ambient magics, probably not.

while this 'theory vote' mess is very interesting to look at.

I hope this will be the last such experiment for awhile....

If there's something I think could have potential to improve the quest, I'm never not going to give it a try.

Though given the nature of the experiments he described to us, van Horstmann might have brought just such a measurement system with him and have been using it along the way. If it was relevant, I guess we could ask him.

Any such attempt would be perilously close to the definition of 'Abominable Act'.

Does this frill, by any chance, resemble a Slayer's preferred hairstyle?

No, it's more like a triceratops.
 
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