Remove ads

Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
Reader mode
Abhorsen said:
I mean, does it matter? Even if the are, we can't do anything about it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We can certainly warn the Empire, the Colleges, and Karaz Ankor. Depending on what we learn, we or they may figure out specific preparations/countermeasures. Or, if it's not all bad, come up with ways of taking advantage of that.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
The thread is mostly split between people thinking Morghur is real and Borek just let him caress him like a lover/family member, or that it's a Runesmith disguised as Morghur - possibly via real mutations - to convince other beastmen to defend the Karak as though it were a herdstone.


Borek walked in just fine! This is apparently not an issue.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Borek is a Dwarf of Karag Dum, which no one else here is. Even if Morghur has been made to let all Dwarfs through, human wizards absolutely wouldn't be on the guest list.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
Borek walked in just fine! This is apparently not an issue.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
BoneyM said:
A few minutes later at a much safer distance from what appears to be the front lines, Borek is nodding to a crestfallen Snorri. "One of my cousins spent three days camping outside the gates because he forgot the pass-phrases and the Winds were blowing too hard for the Runemasters to confirm his identity," He says. "Daresay these lads have learned even harsher lessons than the Chaos Wastes taught us. Probably had a dozen rescues, and much grander than this one."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

We were pretty far away, he would probably be given some password when leaving Karag Dum.
 
Abhorsen said:
Taking anything from a faction that is chaosy is never worth it. Just look at what's happened in quest with things that might originate from chaos sources, like the ax or Mathilde's papers until she explained.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
They're probably not actually Chaosy, just tricking beastmen into defending them, is the thing. Which is horrifying even by human standards, but doesn't make them inherently corruptive.

If they were going Chaos, Borek's departing words wouldn't have been asking the Ancestors to forgive them.
 
Abhorsen said:
I mean, we are going to alert them anyway though. And Everchosen don't come every 20 years, so we have time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The 20 years figure was an example. We have no idea when a new one might arise. Canon-wise, I think Archaon is in... 30 years?

If we leave right now, what exactly are we alerting them to? "Shit is weird at Dum, we can only guess if they fell to Chaos or not, and there's apparently Beastmen who may be illusions, golems, or transformed Dwarfs" isn't exactly much to go on.
 
@Redshirt Army, did you really mean to overwrite your vote with [] pikapika?


[X] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.

[X] THEORY: That's not Morghur. Morghur constantly changes his surroundings, Morghur does not make reality more stable near himself, Morghur does not display affection, Morghur does not not attack people, Morghur would never stay here unless he was bound, and if he was bound he'd be struggling constantly to get out. The shuddering of reality can be faked by Runesmiths if they wanted.

[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.

[X] THEORY: Karag Dum is using a fake Morghur to make the real beastmen fight for them.

[X] THEORY: The dwarves of Karag Dum are alive and uncorrupted by Chaos, but have resorted to truly drastic measures to survive, probably undertaken by their controversial "Rune Masters", which involves having these beastmen or beastmen-appearing creatures defending the karak for the dwarves. We can assume that this is all in favour of the dwarves by Morghur's easy acceptance and non-destruction of Borek as well as Borek's mutual acceptance of the beastman. The idea of Rune Masters being critically involved is the certainty that some form of magic was used to create this whole situation, including the odd weather, and the Rune Masters' lack of corruption is supported by the lesser level of ambient dark magic in the area, even directly around Morghur himself.

[X] THEORY: Karag Dum converted their Rune of Valaya into a Rune of Valaya's Vengeance, and used it to burn away all of the surrounding Dhar, causing a cataclysmic explosion and presumably wiping out whatever threat they were facing. But having lost their Rune of Valaya, they no longer had a defence against the Winds of Chaos, and they knew it. They could not simply die, for they had a critical duty to protect their hold, for reasons that are secrets of my Guild and Karak Eight Peaks, and so they decided that if they could not survive to defend it as Dwarves they would no longer be Dwarves. They found a way for dwarves to become beastmen, and know that they must defend their Karak as though it were their herdstone. Pity them.

[X] ACTION: I'm going to have to check this out.
[X] ACTION: Project a message in the air: What the fuck Borek (but more politely worded.)
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[X] ACTION: Politely ask Morghur to be granted entrance into Karak Dum.
[X] ACTION: Investigate further.
[X] ACTION: Investigate by following the waystone ley line. It will be your guide through any possible illusion or trickery.
[X] ACTION: Dig up some of those bones to confirm how they died.
[X] ACTION: Enlist Journeyman Cyrston's help in identifying flora.
[X] ACTION: Very careful scouting. Both by the knights, dwarves and Mathilde. Starting with inanimate matter and other disposable stuff(like the cows) to determine where the edges-borders of the effect are and just what the hell the effect is without entering it, while the convoy digs in and readies itself to attack, from behind or from the Karag. If that doesn't lead to some clarity, more aggressive scouting may be needed. Either way, Karag Dum is still a part of the Karak Ankor, and there are ways that link them could be used by demons to hurt the whole realm, especially now that Vlag is back and the links reestablished. So while a part of me might prefer as the wise option to turn back, we cannot leave such a threat without establishing its exact nature, if only so I can bring back news of what to do to about it to King Belegar and the High King.

Edit: Added some theories and actions proposed later in the thread, because my vote wasn't long enough already.
 
Last edited:
Deathbybunnies said:
They're probably not actually Chaosy, just tricking beastmen into defending them, is the thing. Which is horrifying even by human standards, but doesn't make them inherently corruptive.

If they were going Chaos, Borek's departing words wouldn't have been asking the Ancestors to forgive them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is, of course, assuming Borek correctly understands the situation. While he has far better odds of that than us, he was gone for 200 years, so who knows how things have developed in the meantime.
 
I'm in favour of cautiously investigating for a short amount of time, but if we don't find anything in a few hours - a day at most - we should head out. Don't want to spend the night near whatever is going on here. And wheel the wagons around before we start investigating so we can quickly run away if the Beastmen don't like our poking around and charge.

At anything more than utterly trivial opposition we should leave. If Dum/the Beastmen want their secrets kept, we're not in a position to force the issue.
 
Okay, I woke up to more then 60 new pages including this whole unholy mess and I have no idea whatsoever. Several of the theories sound somewhat plausible so I think this is what Mathilde would conclude. I trust Mathilde and her windsight enough not to buy into the illusion explanations. Elves seem really far fetched and we have nothing whatsoever pointing in their direction.
I'd say dig in and do some reconnaissance. Were apparently reasonably secure (as far as that goes in the wastes) and I would like to know more.

[x] ACTION: We need to verify if the situation here is stable, or if it's something that will come back to haunt the Karaz Ankor and Empire if left ignored.
[x] -[X] [Action] Expedition: Digs in; Mathilde: Investigates
[x] ACTION: Persuade the Expedition to stay put for a day while you sneak to the gates of the Karak and try to have a chat about it.
[x] THEORY: The Dwarfs have control over Cor-Dum and is likely being controlled by Karak Dum's King or Leader, They are doing this to protect Dum and keep Chaos from getting hold of it, there is an ongoing siege to break this defense with a nearby source providing power to the desert to weaken the defenders.
[x] THEORY: That's not Morghur. Morghur constantly changes his surroundings, Morghur does not make reality more stable near himself, Morghur does not display affection, Morghur would never stay here unless he was bound, and if he was bound he'd be struggling constantly to get out. The shuddering of reality can be faked by Runesmiths if they wanted.
[x] THEORY: This could be a Rune-based Illusion with "Morghur" being a Runemaster. The Dawi of Karag Dum let the forces of Chaos assume that Dum has fallen and is surrounded by Beastmen forces so they don't all unite to attack the Hold together and instead only come in smaller groups to "test" themselves against another chaotic force.
[x] THEORY: The dwarves of Karag Dum are alive and uncorrupted by Chaos, but have resorted to truly drastic measures to survive, probably undertaken by their controversial "Rune Masters", which involves having these beastmen or beastmen-appearing creatures defending the karak for the dwarves. We can assume that this is all in favour of the dwarves by Morghur's easy acceptance and non-destruction of Borek as well as Borek's mutual acceptance of the beastman. The idea of Rune Masters being critically involved is the certainty that some form of magic was used to create this whole situation, including the odd weather, and the Rune Masters' lack of corruption is supported by the lesser level of ambient dark magic in the area, even directly around Morghur himself.
[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[x] THEORY: Omegahugger
[x] THEORY: Physical signs point to Morghur having been holding the area against nomad raiders for a very long time, and history implies that he's not been seen in the old world since approximately when Karag Dum would have come under attack during the Great War against Chaos. He's been here this whole time.
[x] THEORY: Magical signs and, less reliably, intuition about Borek, point to there being something uncorrupted in that mountain in the middle.
[x] THEORY: Whatever the hell is happening, Borek seemed to still care for what Karaz Ankor thought of him and that what we are seeing is the result of his home trying their best to fufill their duties in ways the rest of dwarves probably wouldn't approve. The Corrupter seemed to recognise Borek as almost kin and hasn't made a move against us. I think some very careful investigation is warranted.
[x] THEORY: Through either Pact, Binding or some other venue the dwarfs of Karag Dum have installed Morghur as some form of defensive guardian, supported by the fact that Morghur is treating the mountain as a giant herdstone while to my vision it is not. The confounding factor here is that the energy flowing out of Karag Dum is uncorrupted. Morghur himself would almost certainly be using it for his own ends, so it means the occupants of the hold either don't know how to use it, don't care to use it or still consider themselves part of the Karaz Ankor enough that they let the energy flow uninterrupted.
 
[X] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.

[X] ACTION: Investigate further.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
They're probably not actually Chaosy, just tricking beastmen into defending them, is the thing. Which is horrifying even by human standards, but doesn't make them inherently corruptive.

If they were going Chaos, Borek's departing words wouldn't have been asking the Ancestors to forgive them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Um, dealing with beastmen is chaosy. Morghur is basically corruption given form. Being near Morghur invites corruption.

Oh, new theory, btw:
[] THEORY: The Dwarves are all beastmen now, because Morghur got to them. Letting out the sealed evil in a can didn't work out at all.

Again, we figured out what was at Karag Dum, we completed our job. Now we need to turn back before we get killed up here. People don't seem to take the threat of death seriously.
 
Last edited:
It's weakened a bit while I've been reading through the comments, it seems implausible that Borek would just walk in if that were the case, but since reading the update I've been haunted by the thought: "Is Borek the last living dwarf with the 'keys' to the Dum Waystone?".
BoneyM said:
These people tend to be less 'this animal is a useful tool with a finite value' and more 'this animal is the BESTEST CUTEST SWEETEST puppy/kittybirb ever' except even more so because they fight alongside it and it's probably saved their life at some point.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Clear delusion. Everyone knows that Wolf is the BESTEST CUTEST SWEETEST puppy ever.
 
Abhorsen said:
What do people to hope to gain by investigating other than satisfying their curiosity? This still remains an open question to me. I don't see how the dwarves can be rescued, as they have been dealing with chaos and so aren't going to be allowed anywhere safe other than where they are now.

Unless you believe it to be an illusion, but I see nothing that implies that. There's physical contact with the illusion, we can sense it in the winds, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

As people have argued in many, many different forms over the last sixty pages or so (and is thus far from an 'open' question), it seems to boil down to a combination of the following;
"This shit's whack, people expect me to figure out whack shit."; "How do we report on the fate of Karag Dum when we don't know what that fate is?"; "Is this going to blow up?"; "Are they still on our side?"; "If they are, do they need help?"; "If they aren't, can we stop them?"; "How'd they seemingly neutralize a chaos demigod?"; "Who grew them that healthy forest in the middle of the chaos wastes?" et cetera.

Or more eloquently:

tapkomet said:
Reiterating what I said before in different form: this seems pretty unprecedented, and extremely weird. Way I see it, anything this weird and big, Order factions should find out in more detail than we have right now. Is it Dwarfs doing this? Have they still not fallen to Chaos? How long can they hold out if so? If they have fallen to Chaos, are they a potential threat? If so, when will they start acting against Order factions? Can whatever is happening here be repeated? If so, should it? With what we know, Dum can be anywhere from a safe haven for Order with non-Chaos-aligned Beastmen to a new horrible Chaos invasion in the making.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
"Yusak" is probably a corruption of the Russian term "Yasak", itself a transliteration of Mongolic "Zasg" ( approximately, English, and Russian, come to think about it, don't have the letters in the alphabet to indicate consonant groupings in Mongolic words )
Zasg means something like power, authority or rule.
Yasak was a sort of tax/tribute system levied on the Siberian and Altaic tribes and khanates by the Russian Tsardom when it was expanding eastwards.
 
Hydroplatypus said:
I'm in favour of cautiously investigating for a short amount of time, but if we don't find anything in a few hours - a day at most - we should head out. Don't want to spend the night near whatever is going on here. And wheel the wagons around before we start investigating so we can quickly run away if the Beastmen don't like our poking around and charge.

At anything more than utterly trivial opposition we should leave. If Dum/the Beastmen want their secrets kept, we're not in a position to force the issue.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We can't drive at night.

We need to live with daylight hours left. And exactly that many hours of distance we will get.
 
...Yep, shit's still fucked beyond understanding, and I am amazed to find the thread relatively unburnt. Huh. Anyways, all I really care about is finding out more so we can try to make sense of things.

[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
 
Siual said:
As people have argued in many, many different forms over the last sixty pages or so (and is thus far from an 'open' question), it seems to boil down to a combination of the following;
"This shit's whack, people expect me to figure out whack shit."; "How do we report on the fate of Karag Dum when we don't know what that fate is?"; "Is this going to blow up?"; "Are they still on our side?"; "If they are, do they need help?"; "If they aren't, can we stop them?"; "How'd they seemingly neutralize a chaos demigod?"; "Who grew them that healthy forest in the middle of the chaos wastes?" et cetera.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Well the solution is rather simple:

Boek hugged a beastman and said something about the ancestors forgiving him therefore Fall to Chaos, get the Book of Grudges. Done.

Now about that Golden Arm...

Seriously the details don't matter, if there are any dwarfs in there they will, be grudged onto death, except much like the Dawi Zhar the Karaz Ankor will never get that far.
 
So there's 3 possibilities.

Option 1: Morghur is Morghur, and will kill/mutate Mathilde for having a chat. This is the scariest possibility, and it's what Dum has designed the scenario to look like! Don't be ashamed for falling for it at first. But there is no world where Borek allows something that would do that to brush his hair like family - in this scenario, Morghur is an enslaved foe defending the Karak. The interaction with Borek fundamentally disproves this possibility, as does Borek not being turned into a chaos spawn by his hyper-corruptive aura*as he drew near.

Option 2: Morghur is Morghur, but raised as a Dwarf from birth and successfully protected form the Winds at birth by the rite of Valaya, and raised as a dwarf, and somehow his hyper-corruptive aura has been removed. I personally think that this is a big stretch - he's only been reborn as a human canonically and a lot of things would have to go exactly right, but it's technically possible. In this scenario, Morghur is civilised and will not kill Mathilde or the Expedition for asking to be let past.

Option 3: Morghur is a dwarf Runesmith pretending to be Morghur, either by a runic disguise or outright mutation, to convince other beastmen - of which there are many in the wastes - to defend the Karak, which false-Morghur is pretending is a herdstone. The lack of extreme Dhar presence around him, and only wind movements which could be mimicked by a prepared Runesmith, makes this seem the most likely scenario to me. In this scenario, fake Morghur is a dwarf and will not kill Mathilde or the Expedition for asking to be let past.

I understand that it seems like a big risk if it turns out 1 is correct. But in order for 1 to be correct, several parts of the picture we have been given are fundamentally impossible, and so by deductive reasoning we can rule it out entirely. This is a logic puzzle, and we have to trust in logic to solve it.

*Seriously, it's so corruptive it corrupts projectiles into nothing as they approach. That the land and trees around him are not squirming pools of madness is pretty telling.
 
Last edited:
Another new theory
[X] THEORY: The contingency plan of Karak Dum involved placing runes on Dawi flesh in order to enhance their abilities. Doing so has transformed them into beings resembling Beastmen.
And some old ones
[X] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
Another new theory
[X] THEORY: The contingency plan of Karak Dum involved placing runes on Dawi flesh in order to enhance their abilities. Doing so has transformed them into beings resembling Beastmen.
[x] THEORY: That's not Morghur. Morghur constantly changes his surroundings, Morghur does not make reality more stable near himself, Morghur does not display affection, Morghur would never stay here unless he was bound, and if he was bound he'd be struggling constantly to get out. The shuddering of reality can be faked by Runesmiths if they wanted.
[x] THEORY: This could be a Rune-based Illusion with "Morghur" being a Runemaster. The Dawi of Karag Dum let the forces of Chaos assume that Dum has fallen and is surrounded by Beastmen forces so they don't all unite to attack the Hold together and instead only come in smaller groups to "test" themselves against another chaotic force.
[x] THEORY: The dwarves of Karag Dum are alive and uncorrupted by Chaos, but have resorted to truly drastic measures to survive, probably undertaken by their controversial "Rune Masters", which involves having these beastmen or beastmen-appearing creatures defending the karak for the dwarves. We can assume that this is all in favour of the dwarves by Morghur's easy acceptance and non-destruction of Borek as well as Borek's mutual acceptance of the beastman. The idea of Rune Masters being critically involved is the certainty that some form of magic was used to create this whole situation, including the odd weather, and the Rune Masters' lack of corruption is supported by the lesser level of ambient dark magic in the area, even directly around Morghur himself.
[x] THEORY: Magical signs and, less reliably, intuition about Borek, point to there being something uncorrupted in that mountain in the middle.
[x] THEORY: Whatever the hell is happening, Borek seemed to still care for what Karaz Ankor thought of him and that what we are seeing is the result of his home trying their best to fufill their duties in ways the rest of dwarves probably wouldn't approve. The Corrupter seemed to recognise Borek as almost kin and hasn't made a move against us. I think some very careful investigation is warranted.
[X] ACTION: Investigate further.
 
The way Mathilde goes "The mountain has become Cor-Dum's herdstone" reminds me of "Stone is an excellent insulator of magic". I'd guess that that would be an element of any binding?
 
DragonParadox said:
Well the solution is rather simple:

Boek hugged a beastman and said something about the ancestors forgiving him therefore Fall to Chaos, get the Book of Grudges. Done.

Now about that Golden Arm...

Seriously the details don't matter, if there are any dwarfs in there they will, be grudged onto death, except much like the Dawi Zhar the Karaz Ankor will never get that far.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

"Therefore fall to chaos" is a huge leap, especially when the waystone is uncorrupted. It makes no sense. I get it, this guy is panic inducing, but the fact is there is no corruption, nothing indicates what they are doing is chaosy other than the way this thing looks. All magical senses turn back no extra corruption.
 
[X] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[X] THEORY: That's not Morghur. Morghur constantly changes his surroundings, Morghur does not make reality more stable near himself, Morghur does not display affection, Morghur does not not attack people, Morghur would never stay here unless he was bound, and if he was bound he'd be struggling constantly to get out. The shuddering of reality can be faked by Runesmiths if they wanted.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum is using a fake Morghur to make the real beastmen fight for them.
[X] THEORY: The dwarves of Karag Dum are alive and uncorrupted by Chaos, but have resorted to truly drastic measures to survive, probably undertaken by their controversial "Rune Masters", which involves having these beastmen or beastmen-appearing creatures defending the karak for the dwarves. We can assume that this is all in favour of the dwarves by Morghur's easy acceptance and non-destruction of Borek as well as Borek's mutual acceptance of the beastman. The idea of Rune Masters being critically involved is the certainty that some form of magic was used to create this whole situation, including the odd weather, and the Rune Masters' lack of corruption is supported by the lesser level of ambient dark magic in the area, even directly around Morghur himself.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[X] ACTION: Politely ask Morghur to be granted entrance into Karak Dum.
[X] ACTION: Investigate further.
[X] ACTION: Dig up some of those bones to confirm how they died.
[X] ACTION: Enlist Journeyman Cyrston's help in identifying flora.
[X] ACTION: Very careful scouting. Both by the knights, dwarves and Mathilde. Starting with inanimate matter and other disposable stuff(like the cows) to determine where the edges-borders of the effect are and just what the hell the effect is without entering it, while the convoy digs in and readies itself to attack, from behind or from the Karag. If that doesn't lead to some clarity, more aggressive scouting may be needed. Either way, Karag Dum is still a part of the Karak Ankor, and there are ways that link them could be used by demons to hurt the whole realm, especially now that Vlag is back and the links reestablished. So while a part of me might prefer as the wise option to turn back, we cannot leave such a threat without establishing its exact nature, if only so I can bring back news of what to do to about it to King Belegar and the High King.

This makes the most sense to me without giving me a headache.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Voting is open
Remove ads
Back
Top