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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Garlak said:
And... Cor-Dum was active before the War Against Chaos... While Karag Dum gave the warning to the rest of the Karaz Ankor about Chaos waxing, and all efforts needing to be devoted to it...

... I think...

That Karag Dum normally spends a lot of its Waystone Energy on permanently locking Morghur away.
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No, this doesn't make sense. Why? Because if he spent 99% of the time locked away he wouldn't even be famous enough for Mathilde to recognize!

So we can assume Morghur is free most of the time. Enough time that he can devote the bulk of it to his obsession to eat Ariel while still rampaging around the human countries enough that Mathilde recognizes him.
 
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[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.
[X] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.

[X] ACTION: We need to verify if the situation here is stable, or if it's something that will come back to haunt the Karaz Ankor and Empire if left ignored.
[X] ACTION: Investigate further.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.

Edited to include more ACTION! TY Raydom.
 
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[x] Redshirt Army
[x] THEORY: There's some sort of strange illusion magic going on, and it's not visible even to extremely good mage sight. Out of all known sources of magic only Dawi Runes are capable of that - so the works of Dawi Runesmiths are still in use.
[x] Action: Pray for guidance. In this realm reality is more malleable, perhaps our gods will be able to reach us more easily here.
 
Have finally got caught up again. So approval voting for the options that have come up since. that I am in favour of.

Still mostly on board with the idea the beastmen are Dryads, and possibly wood elves backing them up. Not convinced by any of the arguments that we should be able to see through illusions. Dwarven runes have had illusions in them before, and we have only seen that dwarven magic is in effect by seeing the effects of it in past encounters. For an illusion I feel that would be non obvious, and the high heat is close enough to how I would envisage that.

That said votes for those options seem non existent, and if they are true then it will come out if we investigate further regardless of the reason we go for it.
Therefore approval voting for theories that are likely to get it at least looked at.
Have added in support for the other wood elves option.
Have also added in support for all the ones theories pointing out the Morghur is not acting like Morghur, and that means he is a fake.


For actions.
Still supporting the Approach Cor Dum, and the politely ask him as that is similar from my perspective. Yes I know it is somewhat high risk.
But we came in with someone who knew the signs to be asked into the hold, and seems to have been accepted from what we can see. Whoever is in there will never get a better recommendation to give us a shot at talking things out. It still fails if they actually are using a full chaos Morghur with his own free will. But a full chaos Morghur with his own free will should never have been here in the first place.
If we leave and come back, we have to fight against the assumption that the new us is a chaos plot from the tempter asking them to open the doors.

I don't rate highly our chances of getting better information from any of the tribes stuck outside, whose best attempts have left them as more corpses on the ground. And if they had gained some great insight to this campaign, would surely want to exploit it for their own gain, rather then hand it to the possibly hostile newcomers on the scene.
Other actions supporting are mainly to investigate the beastmen, the surroundings etc. I think it will just confirm they are not fully chaos aligned, which I already believe. But if it is a requirement to getting other people on board, then I would prefer that to walking away.

[x] ACTION: Politely ask Morghur to be granted entrance into Karak Dum.
[x] ACTION: Persuade the Expedition to stay put for a day while you sneak to the gates of the Karak and try to have a chat about it.
[x] THEORY: There's some sort of strange illusion magic going on, and it's not visible even to extremely good mage sight. Out of all known sources of magic only Dawi Runes are capable of that - so the works of Dawi Runesmiths are still in use.
[x] Action: Look for the source of the desert.
[x] THEORY: That's not Morghur. Morghur constantly changes his surroundings, Morghur does not make reality more stable near himself, Morghur does not display affection, Morghur would never stay here unless he was bound, and if he was bound he'd be struggling constantly to get out. The shuddering of reality can be faked by Runesmiths if they wanted.
[x] THEORY: This could be a Rune-based Illusion with "Morghur" being a Runemaster. The Dawi of Karag Dum let the forces of Chaos assume that Dum has fallen and is surrounded by Beastmen forces so they don't all unite to attack the Hold together and instead only come in smaller groups to "test" themselves against another chaotic force.
[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[x] THEORY: Things are not what they appear as at the first look. Nothing Mathilde knows allows for what they are witnessing to be the reality.
[x] ACTION: The forces should move back at least a half-days distance, find a defensible spot, and camp out for a few days to give them a chance to investigate, but no more than two-three days, the overall safety of the expedition still comes first.
[x] [Theory] All we know is that it is friendly and non chaotic. That is enough for now.
[x] [Action] wait nearby and observe. It shouldn't be nearly as dangerous as it seems, and that allows us to gather additional clues.
[x] ACTION: Attempt closer examination of Morghur, the beastmen, and the forest.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum is under an illusion.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum is intact, and has a vast illusion of Morghur for protection.
[x] ACTION: Form up the steam-wagons for defence.
[x] ACTION: Investigate further.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum seems to be magically connected to somewhere else. Somewhere similar to Athel Loren?
[x] THEORY: Magical signs and, less reliably, intuition about Borek, point to there being something uncorrupted in that mountain in the middle.
[x] ACTION: Dig up some of those bones to confirm how they died.
[x] THEORY: Whatever the hell is happening, Borek seemed to still care for what Karaz Ankor thought of him and that what we are seeing is the result of his home trying their best to fufill their duties in ways the rest of dwarves probably wouldn't approve. The Corrupter seemed to recognise Borek as almost kin and hasn't made a move against us. I think some very careful investigation is warranted.
[x] THEORY: When Karak Dum warned the others about Chaos, the other holds instead chose to freak out about the elven army that had just landed upon the shores of the old world. The elves were later revealed to have been chasing Cor-Dum. What if K-Dum tried to remove C-Dum so the elves would go away and the dwarves could send reinforcments up north. However, they bound the demigod to their waystone instead—possibly by accident, possibly on purpose, definitly with forbidden knowledge. They weren't able to prevent the great war in time, so they chose to double down and make Cor-Dum their protector.
[x] Theory - There are no Beastmen, only Dryads, Elgi and illusions
[x] Theory - There are no Beastmen, only Dryads and illusions.
[x] Action - Approach Cor Dum
 
TempestK said:
Right now all we have to work with is GW canon to try and inform our decisions. And a key point of that is that Mhorghur is always insane. He's got a direct link to the Warp attached to his Soul. So at this point it feels like you're arguing in bad faith and using complete fabrications without a shred of actual evidence to back it up.
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Er... Everyone not a vampire has a direct link to the warp in their soul. It's right there in Liber Necris.
 
TempestK said:
Right now all we have to work with is GW canon to try and inform our decisions. And a key point of that is that Mhorghur is always insane. He's got a direct link to the Warp attached to his Soul. So at this point it feels like you're arguing in bad faith and using complete fabrications without a shred of actual evidence to back it up.
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And Horstmann is always a Chaos Cultist.
Your argument is invalid.
 
Leonidas333 said:
[X] ACTION: Investigate further.
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Luxon said:
[x] ACTION: Investigate further.
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Just saying mate but 42 people have voted for
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.

over 18 people have voted for
[x] ACTION: Investigate further.

May want to vote for the one above as their both practicly the same thing except people are consolidating behind the former vote.

[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.
 
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Ultimately, even if Morghur were bound/enslaved, he wouldn't be running his hand through Borek's hair. Both because that's at odds with his fundamental nature, and because Borek would never allow that.

The creature we are seeing is, one way or another, someone that Borek considers close family. I don't believe Morghur, the respawning incarnation of awfulness, would ever qualify for such. If he was born to a dwarf, then that means that it's a Chaos gribbly's soul in the body of the dwarf, not a real dwarf - it's a pre-existing soul. At most, if the Karak Dum Runesmiths are kickflipping so hard they're spinning in place never touching the ground, it would be a despised slave.

It's not Morghur, it's a member of Borek's family that has, through illusion or deliberate mutation, been disguised as Morghur. He's pretending the hold is a Herdstone, so that the other beastmen who venerate Morghur will do what they always do - protect it with their lives.

Even if it's just a disguise and not a deliberate mutation, to the dwarves using the beastmen in such a fashion would be shameful enough they'd consider themselves effectively damned.
 
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TempestK said:
So at this point it feels like you're arguing in bad faith and using complete fabrications without a shred of actual evidence to back it up.
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Dude or dudette, this is a situation where everything in one's brainmeat shorcircuits, people have to make leaps of logics and assumptions, because based on our cnception of reality and known facts, none of what we saw makes sense under any theory or explanation given. We do not need bad faith to go fishing in the lack of evidence waters when insanity is the companion of our eyes.
 
Extra other aside (pulled from wiki): I really think we should try to avoid magic if remotely possible.
"These two items together make the winds of Chaos ever more unstable and dangerous, and can turn the deadly winds against those attempting to manipulate its powerful essence. This means wizards attempting to use the Winds of Magic risk turning into Chaos Spawn.https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Morghur#fn_b"​
 
Andres110 said:
You're kinda missing the point of what Omegahugger was saying. What's true in canon may not be true in Divided Loyalties, whether because Boney simply decided to alter canon or because chance and circumstance have changed things. Morghur's utterly insane in canon Warhammer but a lot of crazy stuff's been happening in Divided Loyalties and one of the possible results of that is that Morghur's shattered mind might not be so shattered.
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Depends, he could still be insane.

Remember, in divided loyalties the dwarves believe that any dwarf soul not properly tended to doesn't reach the underearth, and instead is reincarnated into a new body again.
Which beastman does that sound like again?

If the original Morghur was a dwarf before mutating he could still be completely insane, yet keep his oaths reliably. Because insane dwarves do that kind of thing.
 
Figuring out how to edit votes properly, accidentally replaced vote instead, doing so again.

[x] ACTION: Politely ask Morghur to be granted entrance into Karak Dum.
[x] ACTION: Persuade the Expedition to stay put for a day while you sneak to the gates of the Karak and try to have a chat about it.
[x] THEORY: There's some sort of strange illusion magic going on, and it's not visible even to extremely good mage sight. Out of all known sources of magic only Dawi Runes are capable of that - so the works of Dawi Runesmiths are still in use.
[x] Action: Look for the source of the desert.
[x] THEORY: That's not Morghur. Morghur constantly changes his surroundings, Morghur does not make reality more stable near himself, Morghur does not display affection, Morghur would never stay here unless he was bound, and if he was bound he'd be struggling constantly to get out. The shuddering of reality can be faked by Runesmiths if they wanted.
[x] THEORY: This could be a Rune-based Illusion with "Morghur" being a Runemaster. The Dawi of Karag Dum let the forces of Chaos assume that Dum has fallen and is surrounded by Beastmen forces so they don't all unite to attack the Hold together and instead only come in smaller groups to "test" themselves against another chaotic force.
[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[x] THEORY: Things are not what they appear as at the first look. Nothing Mathilde knows allows for what they are witnessing to be the reality.
[x] ACTION: The forces should move back at least a half-days distance, find a defensible spot, and camp out for a few days to give them a chance to investigate, but no more than two-three days, the overall safety of the expedition still comes first.
[x] [Theory] All we know is that it is friendly and non chaotic. That is enough for now.
[x] [Action] wait nearby and observe. It shouldn't be nearly as dangerous as it seems, and that allows us to gather additional clues.
[x] ACTION: Attempt closer examination of Morghur, the beastmen, and the forest.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum is under an illusion.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum is intact, and has a vast illusion of Morghur for protection.
[x] ACTION: Form up the steam-wagons for defence.
[x] ACTION: Investigate further.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum seems to be magically connected to somewhere else. Somewhere similar to Athel Loren?
[x] THEORY: Magical signs and, less reliably, intuition about Borek, point to there being something uncorrupted in that mountain in the middle.
[x] ACTION: Dig up some of those bones to confirm how they died.
[x] THEORY: Whatever the hell is happening, Borek seemed to still care for what Karaz Ankor thought of him and that what we are seeing is the result of his home trying their best to fufill their duties in ways the rest of dwarves probably wouldn't approve. The Corrupter seemed to recognise Borek as almost kin and hasn't made a move against us. I think some very careful investigation is warranted.
[x] THEORY: When Karak Dum warned the others about Chaos, the other holds instead chose to freak out about the elven army that had just landed upon the shores of the old world. The elves were later revealed to have been chasing Cor-Dum. What if K-Dum tried to remove C-Dum so the elves would go away and the dwarves could send reinforcments up north. However, they bound the demigod to their waystone instead—possibly by accident, possibly on purpose, definitly with forbidden knowledge. They weren't able to prevent the great war in time, so they chose to double down and make Cor-Dum their protector.
[x] Theory - There are no Beastmen, only Dryads, Elgi and illusions
[x] Theory - There are no Beastmen, only Dryads and illusions.
[x] Action - Approach Cor Dum
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.
[X] THEORY: Based on Guild and Dwarf secrets we can tell that Karag Dum is slowing the spread of the Chaos Wastes.
 
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storryeater said:
Dude or dudette, this is a situation where everything in one's brainmeat shorcircuits, people have to make leaps of logics and assumptions, because based on our cnception of reality and known facts, none of what we saw makes sense under any theory or explanation given.
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No, we already have an explanation. What we do not have is an explanation that allows for 'Morghur' being the real thing. Because he's not.
 
065tdsa said:
No, we already have an explanation. What we do not have is an explanation that allows for 'Morghur' being the real thing. Because he's not.
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I am partial to him being fake as more likely, but its still kind of... nonsensical, ever so. Kurgans have been fighting him, reality fritzes, we know of no runework that seems capable of replicating him, beastmen seems to be here, he offered a prayer to a herdstone...
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Honestly, the fact that Borek did not seem surprised throughout his whole interaction with "Morghur" is...troubling, to say the least. If this was an illusion cast by Karag Dum, Borek would definitely be surprised to suddenly find out that his Karag is not lost. Which, to me, suggests that he's either being mindfucked by Slaanesh...or something.

Yeah, this situation doesn't add up. But it's also so goddamned dangerous that I'm not sure it's even worth the risk to try to unravel it.

It's also just intensely unsatisfying that after everything we did for this expedition, after losing Gotrek to a fucking "rocks fall, everyone dies" moment, we have arrived at Karag Dum...and we still have no fucking answers and may end up leaving with no answers either.

@BoneyM : Why hasn't Mathilde already noticed how the term "Cor-Dum" popped into her head without even having any idea what "Cor" means or what language it's from, and how everyone seems to just accept the name immediately without question? She's trained for that kind of stuff, and she indeed noticed a far, far more subtle version of it a couple of weeks ago.
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Cor-Dum is just the Dwarven Name For Morghur Shadowgave.
 
065tdsa said:
No, we already have an explanation. What we do not have is an explanation that allows for 'Morghur' being the real thing. Because he's not.
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Explanation: Morghur was a dwarf, somehow connected to Dum before his mutation.
There is a corrupting presence out there, but Borek endured it instead of mutating when touched.
Morghur is still utterly insane, but (as a dwarf)he keeps the oaths he made before falling to chaos, and one of those oaths requires defending Dum when called upon.
 
BoneyM said:
No, but that does not mean that anyone should be pinged to try to get them to change one or the other. It's a valid vote and I'll combine the votes of the two when it comes time to sort the results out.
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Heh, don't worry, I learned my lesson the first time. Was asking because I vaguely remember people implying differently and wasn't sure if I should combine in tally. Thanks.
 
The notion that Morghur is not who he seems to be is predicated on two things as far as I can tell:
  1. Dwarfs are skilled enough illusionists to make something that can trick Mathilde's magesight
  2. Chaos worshipers (including bestmen) are so bad at sensing Chaos that they can't tell a dwarf s counterfiet from a demigod made by their masters
I submit that both the above seem unlikely.
 
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