And he would assume we know runesmith guild rules because...? For that matter why the hell would he know them.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
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And he would assume we know runesmith guild rules because...? For that matter why the hell would he know them.
Morghur has never been able to control his reality warping. It's part of why he's so powerful, being chaotic is something his gods like.
He does know the secrets of the Waystone network, and as far as he can tell so do we.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
Much in the way that one of Belegar's defining features is how he failed to reconquer Karak-8-Peaks.
No, Belegar is not biologically and metaphysically incapable of retaking Karaks. We've seen him do it.
- Location
- Wherever I feel like being
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- He/Him
No. Belegar failing to conquer 8-peaks was an event. This is something that is supposed to be hard coded into Mhorghur. His insanity, his corrupting presence, it's all something that cannot be excised without him ceasing to be Mhorghur.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
This is not the Morghur we know. His effect on reality seems off, but more importantly he acts wrong. This does not mean he was not originally the Morghur we know, but if he was, he has been altered.
During catch up, I made another observation, that @Redshirt Army said I should note here, as it might be a meta hint:
The possible flaw here is how that could possibly relate to grinding down the mountains. But then, the whole area is a crater. Not sure why. Specifics of burning away that which was tainted?
Also, here's a fun question: If the dwarves are using runecraft to burn away taint, what would that do to a Demigod of taint? To the Beastmen as a people Born of taint? BoneyM has said that there is nothing beyond redemption, after all.
Regardless: I think there's absolutely one thing we must do before we turn back.
[X] ACTION: We need to verify if the situation here is stable, or if it's something that will come back to haunt the Karaz Ankor and Empire if left ignored.
During catch up, I made another observation, that @Redshirt Army said I should note here, as it might be a meta hint:
Also, depending on some of the theories being right, this line right here got a lot more ironic. Because "bending Cor-Dum to the defense of the world" certainly counts there.
Yeah, expanding on this, given the sheer scale, it would match not only the lack of Dhar, but also the distinctly layered result. A wide area at the edge of maximum heat, then as there's less Dhar, more temperate, and finally things are almost normal.
The possible flaw here is how that could possibly relate to grinding down the mountains. But then, the whole area is a crater. Not sure why. Specifics of burning away that which was tainted?
Also, here's a fun question: If the dwarves are using runecraft to burn away taint, what would that do to a Demigod of taint? To the Beastmen as a people Born of taint? BoneyM has said that there is nothing beyond redemption, after all.
Regardless: I think there's absolutely one thing we must do before we turn back.
[X] ACTION: We need to verify if the situation here is stable, or if it's something that will come back to haunt the Karaz Ankor and Empire if left ignored.
Morghur is more-or-less a gaping portal to the warp in the shape of a beastman. If that was actually him, Borek would be spawn. If he was bound, he certainly wouldn't be acting intimate. But it is similar to a powerful warp presence in reality. Maybe they made a daemonhost? Or maybe they made something similar to the Norse dwarfs? They erected stone monuments with master runes to keep Norscans out. The wiki doesn't say how that happens, but it's something.
I don't know. This whole situation is just a massive question mark.
[x] Redshirt Army
[x] THEORY: There's some sort of strange illusion magic going on, and it's not visible even to extremely good mage sight. Out of all known sources of magic only Dawi Runes are capable of that - so the works of Dawi Runesmiths are still in use.
[x] Action: Pray for guidance. In this realm reality is more malleable, perhaps our gods will be able to reach us more easily here.
I don't know. This whole situation is just a massive question mark.
[x] Redshirt Army
[x] THEORY: There's some sort of strange illusion magic going on, and it's not visible even to extremely good mage sight. Out of all known sources of magic only Dawi Runes are capable of that - so the works of Dawi Runesmiths are still in use.
[x] Action: Pray for guidance. In this realm reality is more malleable, perhaps our gods will be able to reach us more easily here.
- Location
- Finland
[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[x] [ACTION]: Turn back.
[x] THEORY: Gor Dum is either a mutated dwarf or controlled by a dwarf, look at how he reacted to Borek.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum has somehow tricked or compelled Morghur to fight the Kurgan tribes.
[x] [ACTION]: Turn back.
[x] THEORY: Gor Dum is either a mutated dwarf or controlled by a dwarf, look at how he reacted to Borek.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum has somehow tricked or compelled Morghur to fight the Kurgan tribes.
There is a vast gulf between 'Karaks are Waystone and power flows somewhere' and 'this illusion? is somehow against runesmith guild rules'.
Both are secrets of the Guild. Well technically in the Karaz Ankor the first is not even known to the Guild anymore, but it certainly used to be.
Further more, even if Mathilde didn't know, the Runesmiths who would inevitably meet the expedition would know when it was described to them. And they would pursue the grudge against the few people we could evacuate from Karag Dum.
Borek doesn't want to evacuate only to end up like that so he'd rather just fade away in his own home.
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But if it were real, wouldn't she be able to tell regardless like staring directly into the sun?
- Location
- Earth
Kragg hit the Undumgi with a rune that bolstered them and made them more dwarf-like. Could the runemasters do the same? If done deliberately and repeatedly...
That'd be trying to beat Chaos in a contest of mindfuckery (a known specialty of Chaos) by raw strength (a known specialty of Chaos) over the soul of one of their most favored champions (and Chaos are known to be really attached to their champions).
They'd fail, plain and simple. Tzeentch probably wouldn't even bother trying to pretend they won, because the gambit is so obvious no one would actually believe they won.
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Strange9
hdellaverson@gmail.com
- Location
- Los Angeles, CA
Remember that Borek was 100% A-OK with dealing with the Chaos Dwarves commercially. That seems significantly worse, dwarf cultural shame wise, than using an illusion (that also kills people?). There had to be something significantly worse than that.
- Location
- Earth
Waystone-Karak has plenty of power too.
NeonLights
Formerly Reliable_2IC
- Location
- In shambles
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[X] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[X] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
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Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
And we've seen Morghur not twist everyone around him and make affectionate gestures.
How hard coded? What knowledge do we have that Morghur can't both have his skulldreads and his staff without also his insanity? What correlation is there between his shape and his mental state, that the two cannot be diverged in any way? It could very well be that the entity isn't Morghul as we know him, but rather the person he'd be allowed to be if someone managed to keep his insanity and lack of control at bay.
Like, we have to remember that this isn't canon Warhammer. BoneyM has a different philosophy to writing than Games Workshop has, thank goodness.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
[X] THEORY: The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included.
[X] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[X] Redshirt Army
[X] ACTION: We need to verify if the situation here is stable, or if it's something that will come back to haunt the Karaz Ankor and Empire if left ignored.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[X] ACTION: Investigate further.
EDIT to include later additions:
[X] ACTION: Investigate by following the waystone ley line. It will be your guide through any possible illusion or trickery.
[X] ACTION: Wait for at least two days and see if Karag Dum sends out an emissary. Borek will report back, and perhaps someone inside will feel less ashamed than he does.
[X] THEORY: How and why does not matter. The expedition's responsibility is to bring word to Karag Dum of the state of Karaz Ankor if any yet live and to bring back any message, refugees, or other explanation from Karag Dum. Borek has fulfilled the first responsibility. We should attempt to to fulfill the second, even if just by observation and waiting a decent time for any messenger from Karag Dum to emerge.
[x] ACTION: I'm going to have to check this out.
[X] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[X] Redshirt Army
[X] ACTION: We need to verify if the situation here is stable, or if it's something that will come back to haunt the Karaz Ankor and Empire if left ignored.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[X] ACTION: Investigate further.
EDIT to include later additions:
[X] ACTION: Investigate by following the waystone ley line. It will be your guide through any possible illusion or trickery.
[X] ACTION: Wait for at least two days and see if Karag Dum sends out an emissary. Borek will report back, and perhaps someone inside will feel less ashamed than he does.
[X] THEORY: How and why does not matter. The expedition's responsibility is to bring word to Karag Dum of the state of Karaz Ankor if any yet live and to bring back any message, refugees, or other explanation from Karag Dum. Borek has fulfilled the first responsibility. We should attempt to to fulfill the second, even if just by observation and waiting a decent time for any messenger from Karag Dum to emerge.
[x] ACTION: I'm going to have to check this out.
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Chaos still has more. They have enough invested in Morghur that he can probably fight a Waystone by himself, and then they can start pouring in more, which they will do because Morghur is quite possibly the favorite toy.
Few mortals ever get resurrected by Chaos, since they love to punish failings. And yet Morghur is famous for his resurrections. Think about that.
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40 pages... I'm never gonna get through the backlog.
Did Borek seem more intense or on-edge after the we revealed the Karak Vlag waystone thing? That makes me wonder if normally... I don't know. Does Karag Dum normally not send as much power down south via the waystone network?
And... Cor-Dum was active before the War Against Chaos... While Karag Dum gave the warning to the rest of the Karaz Ankor about Chaos waxing, and all efforts needing to be devoted to it...
... I think...
That Karag Dum normally spends a lot of its Waystone Energy on permanently locking Morghur away.
But they have other runic defenses or Great Works or responsibilities (maybe even more horrors that they've got locked away and need to keep imprisoned), and the Morghur-Imprisonment thing is a huge energy hog. So sometimes they have to reorient the flow of energy to charge up their batteries or to their other defenses. In those times, Morghur is freed to act. (And usually goes after the Wood Elves, and Queen Ariel, but not always.)
So, speculation:
*Karag Dum usually spends most of its waystone energy on imprisoning Morghur and preventing him from acting; a way of permanently defeating an immortal enemy the likes of a Daemon, Daemon Prince, or Morghur. If you can't annihilate them, imprison them.
*Karag Dum has some unique defenses against Morghur, such that Dum Dwarfs can even walk past him, maybe only if he's at Karag Dum, like Borek did.
*Karag Dum has other runic defenses or Great Works or whatever, but these are power-hungry, and the runic batteries need to be filled or charged up.
*So they have to make a choice about which Great Work or Thing to depower.
*This sometimes means releasing Morghur from his cage.
*That was what was happening before the Great War Against Chaos; Karag Dum was prepping to fight Chaos, and so it was building up charge in its runic batteries to prepare for that.
*That was why Morghur was free to rampage against the Wood Elves. Because the energy that normally goes to imprison him, had to be redirected to stockpiling Karag Dum's runic batteries or other Great Works or something.
*Over the course of the next 180 years, Karag Dum ran out of power or ran into too dire straits. Or maybe they were immediately forced into extremely, incredibly, dire straits, from the start. They were forced to reroute the power to some of the other stuff. This meant releasing the constraints on Morghur a bit. Or maybe it meant they rejiggered the cage a bit, in order to bind Morghur to a location outside Dum.
*They've now got a bit more energy than they know what to do with. But the only thing available to spend it on is the Morghur Imprisonment thing, and that's either not enough energy, or it's a Catch-22; if they turn on the cage bars for Morghur, that means all the Kurgan can get in to kill them, so they can't do that.
*So they just send the power on down south.
This explains why Morghur was active before the Great War Against Chaos, when Karag Dum was warning everybody about Chaos. It explains why there was a flow of energy going to Karak Vlag.
So, this isn't a contingency per se.
It's a failure mode, or sheer desperation. They didn't have a "In case of disaster, unleashThe Kraken one of our chained abominations." They had a "we are Demonreach, and we imprison the nasties of Chaos that can't be permanently killed, to keep them from acting on the world" thing; then they rejiggered it to weaponize one of the inmates.
Alternatively though...
*... They only have so much power available to cage Morghur. Once the 40 or so years they spent charging up before the Great War Against Chaos are up, Morghur is free to do whatever the hell it wants. And Karag Dum is turbo ultra screwed.
*Everyone else is in for a slightly less fun time too though, as Morghur is now no longer an inmate at Warhammer Fantasy Demonreach 90% of the time, and is more free to act.
We really really need to consider the possibility that Karag Dum can't keep Morghur chained or used as an eldritch abomination of a moat forever. And that this isn't just a contingency, but a failure mode. And so we might be facing a more-free-to-act Morghur at some point in the future. (Also, alternatively, whatever else is in Karag Dum too. Though hopefully, they'll destroy or permanently get rid of whatever they can, if/when the power runs out.)
Did Borek seem more intense or on-edge after the we revealed the Karak Vlag waystone thing? That makes me wonder if normally... I don't know. Does Karag Dum normally not send as much power down south via the waystone network?
And... Cor-Dum was active before the War Against Chaos... While Karag Dum gave the warning to the rest of the Karaz Ankor about Chaos waxing, and all efforts needing to be devoted to it...
... I think...
That Karag Dum normally spends a lot of its Waystone Energy on permanently locking Morghur away.
But they have other runic defenses or Great Works or responsibilities (maybe even more horrors that they've got locked away and need to keep imprisoned), and the Morghur-Imprisonment thing is a huge energy hog. So sometimes they have to reorient the flow of energy to charge up their batteries or to their other defenses. In those times, Morghur is freed to act. (And usually goes after the Wood Elves, and Queen Ariel, but not always.)
So, speculation:
*Karag Dum usually spends most of its waystone energy on imprisoning Morghur and preventing him from acting; a way of permanently defeating an immortal enemy the likes of a Daemon, Daemon Prince, or Morghur. If you can't annihilate them, imprison them.
*Karag Dum has some unique defenses against Morghur, such that Dum Dwarfs can even walk past him, maybe only if he's at Karag Dum, like Borek did.
*Karag Dum has other runic defenses or Great Works or whatever, but these are power-hungry, and the runic batteries need to be filled or charged up.
*So they have to make a choice about which Great Work or Thing to depower.
*This sometimes means releasing Morghur from his cage.
*That was what was happening before the Great War Against Chaos; Karag Dum was prepping to fight Chaos, and so it was building up charge in its runic batteries to prepare for that.
*That was why Morghur was free to rampage against the Wood Elves. Because the energy that normally goes to imprison him, had to be redirected to stockpiling Karag Dum's runic batteries or other Great Works or something.
*Over the course of the next 180 years, Karag Dum ran out of power or ran into too dire straits. Or maybe they were immediately forced into extremely, incredibly, dire straits, from the start. They were forced to reroute the power to some of the other stuff. This meant releasing the constraints on Morghur a bit. Or maybe it meant they rejiggered the cage a bit, in order to bind Morghur to a location outside Dum.
*They've now got a bit more energy than they know what to do with. But the only thing available to spend it on is the Morghur Imprisonment thing, and that's either not enough energy, or it's a Catch-22; if they turn on the cage bars for Morghur, that means all the Kurgan can get in to kill them, so they can't do that.
*So they just send the power on down south.
This explains why Morghur was active before the Great War Against Chaos, when Karag Dum was warning everybody about Chaos. It explains why there was a flow of energy going to Karak Vlag.
So, this isn't a contingency per se.
It's a failure mode, or sheer desperation. They didn't have a "In case of disaster, unleash
Alternatively though...
*... They only have so much power available to cage Morghur. Once the 40 or so years they spent charging up before the Great War Against Chaos are up, Morghur is free to do whatever the hell it wants. And Karag Dum is turbo ultra screwed.
*Everyone else is in for a slightly less fun time too though, as Morghur is now no longer an inmate at Warhammer Fantasy Demonreach 90% of the time, and is more free to act.
We really really need to consider the possibility that Karag Dum can't keep Morghur chained or used as an eldritch abomination of a moat forever. And that this isn't just a contingency, but a failure mode. And so we might be facing a more-free-to-act Morghur at some point in the future. (Also, alternatively, whatever else is in Karag Dum too. Though hopefully, they'll destroy or permanently get rid of whatever they can, if/when the power runs out.)
- Location
- Australia
You're kinda missing the point of what Omegahugger was saying. What's true in canon may not be true in Divided Loyalties, whether because Boney simply decided to alter canon or because chance and circumstance have changed things. Morghur's utterly insane in canon Warhammer but a lot of crazy stuff's been happening in Divided Loyalties and one of the possible results of that is that Morghur's shattered mind might not be so shattered.
- Location
- Wherever I feel like being
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Right now all we have to work with is GW canon to try and inform our decisions. And a key point of that is that Mhorghur is always insane. He's got a direct link to the Warp attached to his Soul. So at this point it feels like you're arguing in bad faith and using complete fabrications without a shred of actual evidence to back it up.
[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
Preliminary vote
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
Preliminary vote