Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
A friendly reminder to new questers to read the Informational threadmarks and FAQ specifically before asking a question. Links below:

Frequently Asked Questions
Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:

I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
Last edited:
I thought Azakit was what it was called -- and it sounded cool and fitting due to the connection with Azamar.
typo on my part, yes its azakit.

EDIT: I am the fool. It is actually Akazit in my notes. Ak for the suffix modifier that denotes a concept, az- here let me just put what Boney told me.
I'd go with 'akazit' for 'crafting the essence of a thing'.
 
Last edited:
@BungieONI I'm a bit confused about a couple aspects of your plan. The Rune Metal 1b takes six actions. With three actions, Journeyman of the Odd and Soul of the Earth will give three free actions, for a total of six progress. So why are you burning all but 5 of our Brotherhood Expertise on it?

Additionally, you're buying the maximum of the Dronril, Dronwut Expertise, when the minimum two actions on it will get us three progress. Thus wasting 15 favor. This is way less important than spending almost all of our Brotherhood Favor though.
 
I'm curious about why we aren't following the Alchemy chain when it looks like a true Wonder is locked behind it, and when it gives us an in with the elves in the process.

Who knows, maybe we can somehow butterfly Malekith's little temper tantrum, or his surviving long enough to have it. The only other being whose death would do as much to make the setting less shit would be Nagash.
 
Yo @soulcake apologies if you've answered this already, but what rune category do prosthetic limbs sort under? I'd have assumed they counted as engineering, since forged limb listed as an engineering rune, but is that right? The reason I'm asking is I wanna know what kinds of master runes Snorri could put on a replacement limb.
 
@BungieONI I'm a bit confused about a couple aspects of your plan. The Rune Metal 1b takes six actions. With three actions, Journeyman of the Odd and Soul of the Earth will give three free actions, for a total of six progress. So why are you burning all but 5 of our Brotherhood Expertise on it?

Additionally, you're buying the maximum of the Dronril, Dronwut Expertise, when the minimum two actions on it will get us three progress. Thus wasting 15 favor. This is way less important than spending almost all of our Brotherhood Favor though.
He expects a next part and wants overflow. I agree that there is going to be a next part, but I am not sure that it is worth spending about all our favor to progress it before we even know what it is.
 
We are (very) indirectly working on alchemy with Gimli's commission. We need more Ravnsvake favor for the alchemy specialty once we get around to doing those projects and his commission is the only thing on the list right now to do it. Plus gromril chain or t5 rune metal themselves are pretty massive capstones to achieve.
 
@BungieONI I'm a bit confused about a couple aspects of your plan. The Rune Metal 1b takes six actions. With three actions, Journeyman of the Odd and Soul of the Earth will give three free actions, for a total of six progress. So why are you burning all but 5 of our Brotherhood Expertise on it?

Additionally, you're buying the maximum of the Dronril, Dronwut Expertise, when the minimum two actions on it will get us three progress. Thus wasting 15 favor. This is way less important than spending almost all of our Brotherhood Favor though.
So a couple of things, starting with some context.

When we've completed Rune Metal parts or other stuff that's helped the Brotherhood, we've gotten 10 to 20 Favor from them for each project. With the way Standing and Favor now work it is completely impractical to save up the 565 favor necessary to get to standing seven, which should unlock another Standing perk. However, with the new Available Requests set up, we should be able to get commissions from them that give us both Standing and 40 to 100 Favor. Getting standing from them the request way is more likely than the six odd requests we'd need to do to build up the favor to jump Standing ranks. As we progress in Rune Metal of either line we should also get commissions from them.

So with all of that said, there's little point in my mind to save up Brotherhood favor. I've outlined in past pages why I'm spending all of the favor. We need to spend it on chain at some point if we want to get part 1 and part 2 before turn 38, and it is likely to be critical for getting part 3 done before then as well. We need to spend it at some point, so might as well spend it now in my mind. Further, since we'll complete part 1 with our own efforts, part 2 will be given progress with the favor which means we'll get in the update text more information than if we just did part 1 which gives us a better grasp of how long all of this is going to take.

I'm also running on an estimate of it being around 12 action cost to match Rune Metal Part 5, which means that an expenditure of 5 actions takes it down to 7 actions, which is easy to squeeze in around Valaya's Basket, Zufazul and/or Dronril if it turns out we can't get chain going before turn 38. And it makes it easier to complete when we pick it up again later, in such a situation.

As for Dronril that's a good point. I can knock it down to 3 times easy.


I'm curious about why we aren't following the Alchemy chain when it looks like a true Wonder is locked behind it, and when it gives us an in with the elves in the process.

Who knows, maybe we can somehow butterfly Malekith's little temper tantrum, or his surviving long enough to have it. The only other being whose death would do as much to make the setting less shit would be Nagash.
Because I plan on doing that after the Valayan Armor commission. It's going to be a Wonder, as you say, I think. I don't think we need to leap on it at the first opportunity though, especially since some prepwork needs doing.
 
Last edited:
Note that Alchemy is locked until we have a greater base of knowledge of the winds of magic and the process used by the elves. It's gonna be a while to get started we have a lot of prerequisite research to do.
 
Yo @soulcake apologies if you've answered this already, but what rune category do prosthetic limbs sort under? I'd have assumed they counted as engineering, since forged limb listed as an engineering rune, but is that right? The reason I'm asking is I wanna know what kinds of master runes Snorri could put on a replacement limb.
It'd be engineering.

Which reminds me, now that I've had the time to read the plans, @BungieONI apologies for taking so long, but The Master Rune of Unyielding is a no go.
 
[X] Plan Refined Chain and Limbs
-[X] Render Aid: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Gain reputation and +2 bonus per action to Recruitment Dice. You formed these Hearthguard to combat all the ills that befall the dwarfen people. Send them out, render aid, earn goodwill and spread the word of your retainers and their stated mission beyond the borders of Kraka Drakk.
--[X] Eagle-Eyed: Gain 40 Favour +? with Kraka Ornsmotek. There is now a consistent presence of tunnel gnubblers within the mines of Ornsmotek. 1 Retainer Action.
-[X] Dronril, Dronwut: [Cost 6 actions] Journeyman of the Odd and Soul of the Earth will proc.
--[X] Craftsdwarf Expertise: [Cost: 15 Favour from Kraka Drakk] Gain 1 progress. Can be taken 4 times and without actions. Ask the Masters, and set them loose on what parts of the work they can. Take 3 times.
-[X] The Rune Metal Pt. 1b: [Cost: (8 -2) =6 actions] Journeyman of the Odd and Soul of the Earth will proc. 3 Actions.
-[X] [Difficult] A Princely Wedding Gift Pt.1:

--[X] Accept
-[X] [Difficult] Triage Pt.1: A Princess's Strong Arm and Stout Legs. A terrible business that must be ended and made right to the best of your abilities. Give Orra arms and legs of Adamant, with Hearthstones socketed into her shoulder and shins and bands of Pure Gromril engraved with her lineage.
--[X] Choose: On the arm the Master Rune of Waking, Rune of Valaya and Rune of Forged Limb. On the legs, each bears a Rune of Forged Limb. The left leg also bears a Rune of Fortitude and a Rune of Vitality. The right also bears a Rune of the Valiant and Rune of Warding. Every rune associated with Valaya is engraved on a Hearthstone. You'll come back for her eye later. 1 Action.
-[X] Accept
-[X] Order: T4 Stonehorn Horns.
-[X] Kingly Expedite: Spend enough Kraka Drakk favor to get it by end of turn 34.

I disagree with BungieONI's plan spending Brotherhood Favor in order to overflow to the next part of the tree. While I don't think we should hoard it, I think that if we want to spend it we should know what exactly we're spending it on, rather than just '5 progress to the next research entry in the tree.'
 
Not everything needs a master rune you guys go with the Rune of the Stalwart or Warding or forging. Maybe we will find something new.
 
typo on my part, yes its azakit.

EDIT: I am the fool. It is actually Akazit in my notes. Ak for the suffix modifier that denotes a concept, az- here let me just put what Boney told me.
I'd go with 'akazit' for 'crafting the essence of a thing'.
If both Ak and Az are suffixes, doesn't that mean it could actually be either? Ak-az-it, and Az-ak-it, both working equally well?

Hm, with the "-it" ending it's a present tense form verb too so... hence crafting or transformation or perfecting...

-az: This is a very important and common signifier and it means the word represents a specific physical thing or place -- a particular mountain, not mountains in general. It is usually placed directly after the root before any other signifiers. That much is easy -- unfortunately, there are many things that the dwarfs regard as so real and solid that the -az signifier is used even though they are talking about something which is neither a place nor a material object! For example 'galaz' which means 'fearless'. In this case the -az refers to the 'real essence' of the idea. So, from the root 'dur' which means 'stone that can be riven' comes duraz which means a stone stab but also durak which means 'hard like a stone slab'. Although it is perfectly right to describe a tough dwarf as durak (rock hard) it would also be correct to describe him as duraz (literally stone).
-ak: This is the other major common signifier and means that the word represents a concept, something abstract such as honour, courage or fortitude. Of course, dwarfs being dwarfs, really important abstract concepts are accorded the status of real things, so 'a grudge to be avenged' is dammaaz, not dammak, but dammak still stands for the general concept of outstanding grudges.

"unfortunately, there are many things that the dwarfs regard as so real and solid that the -az signifier is used even though they are talking about something which is neither a place nor a material object! For example 'galaz' which means 'fearless'."

So that's the purpose of -Az in here, then. To denote specialtyness to it.

So...

And the next paragraph (a shorter one) which talks about Ak... means that the word represents a concept or something abstract...

... Put together, I think just Akazit alone can probably be a confusing word. Because Ak says "this is an idea or abstract thing", Az says "this is important and notable" and It says "this is a present tense verb." Az can be used to denote importance, but... with Ak being in front of it, it's like... hrm.

Together, the word probably means something like "to (present tense verb) an important idea/concept."

It feels like it lacks something to denote crafting or craftsmanship. Like you've come up with a word that says "abstract ideas or essences" and "this denotes a real thing", but the word itself isn't about anything physical or active if you get my meaning.

... Like, you say this to somebody and they are confused for a bit and go: "Do you mean 'thinking' or 'thought'? Because that sounds like what you're describing."

If the word means "making ideas be denoted as important or real" then that's like a mental exercise.

Just adding "-ul" or "-kul" wouldn't be enough, either.

====================
-ul or -kul: Common word ending for dwarf words and not always a signifier but often means 'the art of, understanding of, or master of', for example grungkul the art of mining, and kazakul the art of battle or generalship.
====================
As that would just turn it into "a mental exercise." The art of thinking and talking about ideas. ... In other words, Philosophy. Akazitul/Akazitkul feels like it would mean either "the art/craft of philosophy" or "art/craft of language."

This is a really tricky thing. I feel like Akazit/Azakit itself does not mean essence-crafting, but something like "definitions" or "denoting an abstract thing."
@soulcake, do we need Rune of Forged Limb on a prosthesis if we put a Master Rune of Waking on it?
if you want the sensory feedback and mental control and such yes.
The Rune of Forged Limb already gives you sensory feedback and mental control and movement; is the MWaking Rune just to... make it even more alive then and even more fine motor control and sensation? ... Fair enough, I suppose.
 
I don't really see the point of putting a master rune of waking on the arm. What is the added value?
Edit: considering the rune of forged limb is sufficient for runesmithing (Joll), why would she need more fine motor control

Why not a weapon rune (like Smiting?) or a Master rune of Valaya?
 
Last edited:
No diss, but master waking seems like a dud rune on the prosthetic arm. The big tentpole benefit of that rune is that it allows for things to move autonomously, and is that even a quality you're looking for in a replacement limb? Surely it would be more than sufficient to have the new arm be mentally controlled by the recipient, like, you know, a regular-ass arm. I accept the waking rune is likely to also provide some increased strength etc, as per the waking improvements Snorri's researched, but that seems like a marginal benefit. Especially considering this would mean Snorri using two master waking runes in very quick succession. What if people in here want to make a robot sometime in the next 100 years or so and Snorri starts bumping his head against his maximum allotment of robot runes for the century?

I would much rather we slotted in a regular rune instead, such as:

accuracy, for increased manual dexterity
might, for obvious strength increase
stoicism, for better resistance to pain (not in the prosthetic itself but to help with phantom limb, the burns on the rest of her body and so on)
parrying, for emergency karate blocks using metal arm if someone comes at her

I don't really see the point of putting a master rune of waking on the arm. What is the added value?

Why not a weapon rune (like Smiting?) or a Master rune of Valaya?

None of those can go an a prosthetic, which counts as an engineering item. Waking is one of the few master runes that fit on there. It seems, in my eyes, like demon guy is over-focusing on having some kind of master rune on his baby instead of just putting three normal runes on there.
 
I don't really see the point of putting a master rune of waking on the arm. What is the added value?

Why not a weapon rune (like Smiting?) or a Master rune of Valaya?
Wrong category.

Can we specify using a Hearthstone for the MR Waking?

I'm wondering if it'd make the MR Waking arm warm as a normal arm, like touching flesh, instead of metal.
I've left a general line of Valayan associated runes being inscribed on Hearthstones, leaving it up to soul and Snorri since I'm genuinely not sure.


Speaking of prepwork for Akazit! I spent some time organizing my thoughts since I want to get to it sometime after either turn 40 or 42, depending on if we end up also taking the Gazul commission.

In order to unlock Akazit the bare minimum is likely 3 Action Points and 20 Ravnsvake favor into Eltharin and 3 Action Points (ours or Retainer actions) into Alchemical Almanacs. This is the minimum, and does not give us a Specialty in Alchemy, which I think is leaving us with a much smaller foundation than what we could get. We could do it in about two turns.

However! I think there is very good reason to go as hard as we can in both Eltharin and the Almanacs, for a few reasons. Eltharin fluency will help with future elf interactions for Snorri in general, and give us a new elf character to be entertained by. I'm excited to see what Soul comes up with for such a character, and they'd be Snorri's first interaction with Elves so I could potentially imagine them being a reoccurring character. Eltharin fluency also expands Snorri's ability to describe and understand magical phenomena, which is good for the Winds of Magic heavy topic of Akazit.

Gotta have the right notation to mark down in the texts, and all that.

Going full into the Almanacs requires a total of 8 Action Points (Ours or retainers) and the only mitigation of that is favor expenditure. We currently have 60, and would gain 100 from the Gimli request. 90 would need to be expended to gain access to fluency in Eltharin and all of the Almanacs, leaving 70. This means we could knock that down to 1 Action Point if we expended all of our Ravnsvake favor, after completing the Gimli commission. But given Ravnsvake is the gateway to Elf Stuff, we might not want to do that and try to save our favor, outside of going full on the Almanacs and Eltharin.

All told that's 11 Action Points and 90 Favor. Eminently doable in three turns.

Akazit itself would take 10 actions, and necessarily take two turns even with Journeyman of the Odd, unless Zufazul and Dronril add progress to it, along with any other Odd Places stuff. Which is quite possible! And we genuinely have no idea what it might give, or how many parts there would be, since its completely new territory.

Four to five turns is a pretty nice expenditure of time to get us started, especially since we can wrap up Odd Places the same turn we grab Eltharin.


No diss, but master waking seems like a dud rune on the prosthetic arm. The big tentpole benefit of that rune is that it allows for things to move autonomously, and is that even a quality you're looking for in a replacement limb? Surely it would be more than sufficient to have the new arm be mentally controlled by the recipient, like, you know, a regular-ass arm. I accept the waking rune is likely to also provide some increased strength etc, as per the waking improvements Snorri's researched, but that seems like a marginal benefit. Especially considering this would mean Snorri using two master waking runes in very quick succession. What if people in here want to make a robot sometime in the next 100 years or so and Snorri starts bumping his head against his maximum allotment of robot runes for the century?

I would much rather we slotted in a regular rune instead, such as:

accuracy, for increased manual dexterity
might, for obvious strength increase
stoicism, for better resistance to pain (not in the prosthetic itself but to help with phantom limb, the burns on the rest of her body and so on)
parrying, for emergency karate blocks using metal arm if someone comes at her



None of those can go an a prosthetic, which counts as an engineering item. Waking is one of the few master runes that fit on there. It seems, in my eyes, like demon guy is over-focusing on having some kind of master rune on his baby instead of just putting three normal runes on there.
Uh, bluntly. No.

I figure its a good strength and fidelity of movement boost, and I am curious what Waking would do on such a thing.
 
Last edited:
He'll be the Heir first and the Heir panoply doesn't have a weapon as of yet.
They'd prefer something that becomes part of the Kings Panoply eventually.
but he would prefer something that Gimli will carry with him when he eventually takes up the panoply of his father and grandfather as their equipment has become the royal arms of Kraka Drakk's monarch and heir

Frurndar don't count as proper Dawi
If we actually believed that we wouldn't need to ask if the write in was valid.
Do we even have any evidence that there's a chain to follow beyond this research option in the first place? That our overflow isn't going to be essentially wasted?

That's a hefty gamble we'd be making if not.
Of course theres a chain beyond this. What do you think we're researching? If we don't get a chain then we get chain instead.
:whistle::p:V
I feel as though that's an awful lot of assumptions being made though.
He says before going on to make more assumptions.
Funny thing is even your assumptions we'd still expect to see Chain get completed.
80 years is still a completely reasonable time period for a dwarf.
 
No diss, but master waking seems like a dud rune on the prosthetic arm. The big tentpole benefit of that rune is that it allows for things to move autonomously, and is that even a quality you're looking for in a replacement limb? Surely it would be more than sufficient to have the new arm be mentally controlled by the recipient, like, you know, a regular-ass arm. I accept the waking rune is likely to also provide some increased strength etc, as per the waking improvements Snorri's researched, but that seems like a marginal benefit. Especially considering this would mean Snorri using two master waking runes in very quick succession. What if people in here want to make a robot sometime in the next 100 years or so and Snorri starts bumping his head against his maximum allotment of robot runes for the century?

I would much rather we slotted in a regular rune instead, such as:

accuracy, for increased manual dexterity
might, for obvious strength increase
stoicism, for better resistance to pain (not in the prosthetic itself but to help with phantom limb, the burns on the rest of her body and so on)
parrying, for emergency karate blocks using metal arm if someone comes at her



None of those can go an a prosthetic, which counts as an engineering item. Waking is one of the few master runes that fit on there. It seems, in my eyes, like demon guy is over-focusing on having some kind of master rune on his baby instead of just putting three normal runes on there.
Frankly, if I had my way, it'd be MR Waking, Forged Limb, Stone.

"Waking the Limb of Stone" sounds like a Dawi arm being made, given Dawi and Stone have VERY deep links, and Gronti are traditionally rocks.

Also? I just wanna see like what MR Waking would DO on an arm of Adamant frankly.

Speaking of! @soulcake how much Adamant would making the limbs Adamant need? 3 bars, 2, 1?
 
Back
Top