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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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DragonParadox said:
That was before I knew about Planar Refuge. You can use that being a ready made spell instead of having to research
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I was talking specifically 'bout the "we are being fucked with"-warning for the dipshit pilots who're likely to fail the Wis check thanks to low lvls.

Much like Asel in teh given question above, I think.
 
egoo said:
I was talking specifically 'bout the "we are being fucked with"-warning for the dipshit pilots who're likely to fail the Wis check thanks to low lvls.

Much like Asel in teh given question above, I think.
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Oh, that... Yeah I could see research going into building a detector independent of pilot senses. I would still fluff it as based on Planar refuge now that I know about the spell though.
 
DragonParadox said:
Yes there would be some sign, though not necessarily and obvious or consistent one. I would roll wisdom check for the pilots.
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What about a mercury filled diode or something which has an isolated gravity field. Any disruption to that field would be a sign that the Refuge was being overpowered, no check necessary. Or similar monitors for keeping track of time differentials. There's a spell or metamaterial out there that's relevant, probably? @Azel, @Goldfish?
 
Crake said:
What about a mercury filled diode or something which has an isolated gravity field. Any disruption to that field would be a sign that the Refuge was being overpowered, no check necessary. Or similar monitors for keeping track of time differentials. There's a spell or metamaterial out there that's relevant, probably? @Azel, @Goldfish?
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Hm... a gyroscope might be able to pick up such disturbances. If either space or time get distorted, it's spin should alter in response. However, that is predicated on the change affecting the vessel gradually. If you generate something akin to a warp bubble around the vessel, that is keeping the spacetime within normal but distorting the spacetime around it, then the onboard instrument would be entirely unable to catch it.

What might be the best would be linked devices across multiple vessel, like say a Moonchaser and his CAG, with the Moonchaser itself having multiple sensors in different parts of the vessel. To affect the whole Moonchaser, you would need serious amounts of mojo, simply due to how large it is, and likewise, you would likely pick up on distortions being slightly different among the CAG.

So... a gyro kept spinning with some Mage Hand, a clock and a communication setup to remotely monitor the device. Then you could just have the pilots sync clocks before deploying into a highly morphic environment and the moment the clocks or gyros desync due to spacetime distortions you know that something is actively overpowering the warding.

Would still need some research to make this happen though. It would be easiest to do so in the Dreamlands, since the place is both highly morphic and the local dreamscape of SD is safe thanks to Yss snacking on everything that might try to make trouble.
 
Crake said:
What about a mercury filled diode or something which has an isolated gravity field. Any disruption to that field would be a sign that the Refuge was being overpowered, no check necessary. Or similar monitors for keeping track of time differentials. There's a spell or metamaterial out there that's relevant, probably? @Azel, @Goldfish?
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Maybe something like a network of tiny mindless Constructs which all constantly engage in some sort of simple repetitive motion, like the swinging of a metronome's inverted pendulum, and enclose it in a transparent container to prevent easy outside tampering. Give the Constructs ability to observe themselves and their nearest fellows so that they can all see the pendulums are moving in perfect synchronicity. Then if the visible rate that one or more pendulums swings changes even slightly, all observing Constructs sound an alarm. If properly spaced out and used in sufficient numbers for good coverage, the detection grid would be able to alert a base to the area being affected, the magnitude of the effect, how quickly it is spreading, etc.

This probably wouldn't be practical or useful for anything mobile, but the methodology could work well for any base which we suspect might come under time manipulating shenanigans.
 
egoo: *pesters DP into giving a number on a research action, leaving the fluffing-out completely up to DP*

BronzeTongue: *throws an existing obscure spell at DP as a justification and/or a way to desired effect*

Crake/Azel/Goldfish: *go full /sci/tards and throws together a mechanically sound way to get the desired effect with no RAs necessary*

> This thread's problem-solving in a nutshell.
I don't even.
 
Luckily, upgrading our vessels with Planar Refuge does only require Permanency and no crafting time. At 1,600 IM per small craft, 6,400 IM per Moonchaser and 19,200 IM for the Dauntless, it doesn't exactly come cheap though.

@Crake, @Goldfish, it would be 97,600 IM to upgrade all Type-A and Type-B Wyverns, and the Manticores. Another 19,200 IM for the Moonchasers and another 19,200 IM for the Dauntless.
I'd add the ward on all these vessels to complement the already existing planar adaptation, since it doesn't drive up construction time and it makes them more durable in hostile planar environment, not only highly morphic ones.

Edit:
While the area of single casting of Planar Refuge is spherical, for most purposes we will need to overlap the effects to have a full coverage of a volume. The inner cube of the AoE is 17.6m / 57.735ft, so we assume that each casting covers roundabout a 55ft x 55ft x 55ft cube. A basic command item of the spell would be (Spell Level 7 * Cast Level 13 * (1/5 for 1/day) * 1,800 GP) / 2 = 16,380 GP = 1,638 IM to craft. Each such item could sustain 13 such cubes, as each casting lasts a day per CL. If we assume the base to be compact, we could cover a ground area of 50m x 67m / 165ft x 220ft, with a single cube left over to allow the construction of a watchtower / Flaktower. That should be plenty for a border outpost.
 
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Azel said:
Luckily, upgrading our vessels with Planar Refuge does only require Permanency and no crafting time. At 1,600 IM per small craft, 6,400 IM per Moonchaser and 19,200 IM for the Dauntless, it doesn't exactly come cheap though.

@Crake, @Goldfish, it would be 97,600 IM to upgrade all Type-A and Type-B Wyverns, and the Manticores. Another 19,200 IM for the Moonchasers and another 19,200 IM for the Dauntless.
I'd add the ward on all these vessels to complement the already existing planar adaptation, since it doesn't drive up construction time and it makes them more durable in hostile planar environment, not only highly morphic ones.

Edit:
While the area of single casting of Planar Refuge is spherical, for most purposes we will need to overlap the effects to have a full coverage of a volume. The inner cube of the AoE is 17.6m / 57.735ft, so we assume that each casting covers roundabout a 55ft x 55ft x 55ft cube. A basic command item of the spell would be (Spell Level 7 * Cast Level 13 * (1/5 for 1/day) * 1,800 GP) / 2 = 16,380 GP = 1,638 IM to craft. Each such item could sustain 13 such cubes, as each casting lasts a day per CL. If we assume the base to be compact, we could cover a ground area of 50m x 67m / 165ft x 220ft, with a single cube left over to allow the construction of a watchtower / Flaktower. That should be plenty for a border outpost.
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For the Moonchasers and similar large craft, Viserys should be the one to cast the spell. He could use it in conjunction with Sudden Widen, learned from Ancestral Awakening, so that each casting covers a 100 foot radius. And with some judicious buffing, each spell could be set in place at 30th caster level for added resilience against various Dispelling and suppression effects. A 100 foot radius isn't quite enough for a Moonchaser, so that would take two castings, but it's better than four. Two castings would also cover the Dauntless.

Your math is a bit off for the Planar Refuge Generator (TM): It should go as follows:

7 x 13 = 91
91 x 1,800 = 163,800 gp
163,800 gp / 10 = 16,380 (IM conversion)
Plus: 100 x 50 = 5,000 IM (due to having an expensive Material Component)
21,380 / 5 = 4,276 (To reduce it to 1/Day)

You halved the cost for some reason and didn't include the cost of the material component. 4,276 IM is still quite reasonable for the effect, IMO.
 
Goldfish said:
For the Moonchasers and similar large craft, Viserys should be the one to cast the spell. He could use it in conjunction with Sudden Widen, learned from Ancestral Awakening, so that each casting covers a 100 foot radius. And with some judicious buffing, each spell could be set in place at 30th caster level for added resilience against various Dispelling and suppression effects. A 100 foot radius isn't quite enough for a Moonchaser, so that would take two castings, but it's better than four. Two castings would also cover the Dauntless.

Your math is a bit off for the Planar Refuge Generator (TM): It should go as follows:

7 x 13 = 91
91 x 1,800 = 163,800 gp
163,800 gp / 10 = 16,380 (IM conversion)
Plus: 100 x 50 = 5,000 IM (due to having an expensive Material Component)
21,380 / 5 = 4,276 (To reduce it to 1/Day)

You halved the cost for some reason and didn't include the cost of the material component. 4,276 IM is still quite reasonable for the effect, IMO.
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It's 5 GP = 1 IM and Crafting Price = Market Price / 2, so I halved twice due to derp. True about forgetting the material component.

Also, the Dauntless would still need at 3 castings and the Moonchaser 2, since you can't just divide the length by the diameter of the spheres. That way you get gaps in the coverage. This is why I'm calculating with the inner cubes of the AoE.

Lastly, I'm still going to calculate the price based on the regular sieze of the effect for consistencies sake. We had the same debate with the Forbiddance wards already and I'm still against using special PC grade buff schemes in construction projects. That just leads to having to keep track of way too much detail in each vessel, as now you would have differences depending on who aided the construction and likewise we would have to allocate specific people to ward them. Let's just use the baseline like we do for every other spell effect.
 
Azel said:
Lastly, I'm still going to calculate the price based on the regular sieze of the effect for consistencies sake. We had the same debate with the Forbiddance wards already and I'm still against using special PC grade buff schemes in construction projects. That just leads to having to keep track of way too much detail in each vessel, as now you would have differences depending on who aided the construction and likewise we would have to allocate specific people to ward them. Let's just use the baseline like we do for every other spell effect.
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It's a 7th level spell, so we'll have to use PC grade casting to apply it. If not Viserys doing it, then Malarys, Rina, or Dany could prepare and cast it, and Lya, Qyburn, or Anu could learn it in order to cast it as well. If one of them is doing it, they might as well take the time to buff their caster level to make the effect more resilient. Viserys, Dany, and Lya have the benefit of being able to cast it as a Standard Action using Mythic power rather needing an hour, and this keeps us from having to use Lya's time to learn the spell.

For crafting purposes, we would need Lya, Anu, and/or Qyburn to learn it in order to make the Planar Refuge Generator (TM).
 
Goldfish said:
It's a 7th level spell, so we'll have to use PC grade casting to apply it. If not Viserys doing it, then Malarys, Rina, or Dany could prepare and cast it, and Lya, Qyburn, or Anu could learn it in order to cast it as well. If one of them is doing it, they might as well take the time to buff their caster level to make the effect more resilient. Viserys, Dany, and Lya have the benefit of being able to cast it as a Standard Action using Mythic power rather needing an hour, and this keeps us from having to use Lya's time to learn the spell.

For crafting purposes, we would need Lya, Anu, and/or Qyburn to learn it in order to make the Planar Refuge Generator (TM).
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I'll be honest with you. I'm not going to keep track of the individual CL of the Planar Refuge effects of our entire Air Force. That's just one of those things where even I no longer see the value in accounting this precisely. Not for a number that will likely never come up.
 
Azel said:
I'll be honest with you. I'm not going to keep track of the individual CL of the Planar Refuge effects of our entire Air Force. That's just one of those things where even I no longer see the value in accounting this precisely. Not for a number that will likely never come up.
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That's understandable. Disregarding caster level, we would still need someone to apply it. For ease of backgrounding the entire matter, I would recommend Anu. He can learn it for purposes of crafting as well as applying it as warding.
 
Vote closed
Adhoc vote count started by Duesal on Sep 16, 2020 at 1:21 PM, finished with 107 posts and 14 votes.
  • [X] Plan He Should Have Studied Politics
    -[X] The idea that a sorcerer lords power is wholly unrestrained is laughable. A knight in heavy armor surrounded by his men at arms might be nothing compared to a powerful mage, but to the smallfolk, they are equally unassailable in their personal power. Yet evidence shows that the knight can't rule by fear alone, no matter how many have tried to do so. His power to compel others to act by force is limited by the reach of his blade. Likewise, the sorcerer is limited by what spells he can threaten his subjects with. To rule like this is to rule over slaves who will only obey as long as the whip is cracked at them and the state of Essos and Slavers Bay shows how well such systems work.
    -[X] To rule means to act in accordance with an often unspoken consensus between those governing and those governed. The governed will obey the commands of the governing as long as those are seen as legitimate in the frame of a societal agreements. A Legionnaire obeys his officer, because the officer has been imbued with the royal authority to give his commands. A citizen will obey the lawmen because they have been imbued with the authority to enforce the laws. But this authority rests on the royal authority being seen as legitimate by the governed and the system can only work as long as that is given.
    -[X] The Imperium works because both the absorbed governments and the population of these entities have been convinced that the actions of the Imperium at large are beneficial to them, the laws just and their application fair. If the people assumed that the lawmen were enforcing the laws unfairly, they would disobey them. If they thought the courts ruled unfairly, they would avoid the judgement of the courts. If they thought the orders of their leader were not in their own interest, they would see to subvert and twist them. Force can be used to force compliance anyway, but said force requires compliance in turn. A sorcerer lord can't stand behind every lawman, every court and every governor to back up their orders with violence. Those institution would be worthless if that had to be done. Even the sorcerer has to rely on regular people to buy into the idea of his authority and to enforce it for him.
    -[X] The Empire of the Dawn broke because it was invaded by foreign powers seeking to sunder it. The Valyrian Freehold broke because a catastrophe destroyed the centralized leadership that kept it together in a single moment. If he thinks that Tywin Lannisters rule could survive to see Lannisport burned down by Daemons and Casterly Rock being turned to rubble by a cataclysmic explosion, indulge in some honest laughter. If you were to look for an empire that was not sundered by cataclysm, one has only to look at Yi-Ti, which still exists after millennia, even though it has a history of strife and civil war like any other realm.
    -[X] Long story short, to assume that the Imperium rests on the direct power of it's ruler shows a stunning lack of understanding of the forces and rules of government. It would be impossible to forge a realm covering half a continent on the basis of fear and violence alone. You do however understand why self-important Westerosi Lords like Lanna would think otherwise, what with their love of reducing the history of the world to singular acts of "great people" and turning the population at large and the means of government into window dressings of their tales.
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Not gonna lie, having our plan be "you uneducated idiot, go learn how the world works!" to an Archmaester is... unexpected.
We've seen that his Diplomacy is terrible, and next update we'll see if his self-control and ability to take harsh criticism are good!

He's not even entirely wrong, you know. A singular overpowered spellcaster absolutely can rule the world alone. There are ways to create infinite loyal clones of yourself, or infinite powerful intelligent Constructs built to be forever loyal. And arguably the Red God's ultimate plan is in fact making him absolute ruler of every world at once, isn't it?
...
More seriously, the reason he's not entirely wrong is because the increase in power differential between "an immortal Dragon with armies of loyal constructs vs the people and lesser nobility" is immensely greater than the balance of power between a knight and his smallfolk. And of course the knight will eventually die, too!
We could stay in power by pandering to a tiny segment of the population (PCs over level 15 + whoever controls the Flesh Forges) while knights have to keep an entire class of men-at-arms and hedge knights happy and loyal. And the knights don't even have access to epic Diplo, mind control, constant surveillance, etc.

Azel said:
We might have a better shot at doing this by using the Imperial Pseudo-Deity, since it's already going to use Imperial Steel wires to give it influence over land areas.

Though planting a Weirwood on every Feywild portal should help a lot to get a solid border going.
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Can we plant Weirwoods there? Or would a planar breach be a bad place for their health?
Putting them very near the breach to detect/kill anything that comes through makes a lot of sense. But putting them right on top of it to "stabilize it" and mess with the planar fabric seems... Unwise. Even the OG have limits, after all.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Not gonna lie, having our plan be "you uneducated idiot, go learn how the world works!" to an Archmaester is... unexpected.
We've seen that his Diplomacy is terrible, and next update we'll see if his self-control and ability to take harsh criticism are good!

He's not even entirely wrong, you know. A singular overpowered spellcaster absolutely can rule the world alone. There are ways to create infinite loyal clones of yourself, or infinite powerful intelligent Constructs built to be forever loyal. And arguably the Red God's ultimate plan is in fact making him absolute ruler of every world at once, isn't it?
...
More seriously, the reason he's not entirely wrong is because the increase in power differential between "an immortal Dragon with armies of loyal constructs vs the people and lesser nobility" is immensely greater than the balance of power between a knight and his smallfolk. And of course the knight will eventually die, too!
We could stay in power by pandering to a tiny segment of the population (PCs over level 15 + whoever controls the Flesh Forges) while knights have to keep an entire class of men-at-arms and hedge knights happy and loyal. And the knights don't even have access to epic Diplo, mind control, constant surveillance, etc.


Can we plant Weirwoods there? Or would a planar breach be a bad place for their health?
Putting them very near the breach to detect/kill anything that comes through makes a lot of sense. But putting them right on top of it to "stabilize it" and mess with the planar fabric seems... Unwise. Even the OG have limits, after all.
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The Old Gods are formerly fey, and the Feywild though mutable is nonetheless a reflection of Prime Material. Especially with the effects we're planning on putting on the weirwoods, there's no reason it shouldn't work out.

The bigger concern is angry fey attacking the weirwoods.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Not gonna lie, having our plan be "you uneducated idiot, go learn how the world works!" to an Archmaester is... unexpected.
We've seen that his Diplomacy is terrible, and next update we'll see if his self-control and ability to take harsh criticism are good!

He's not even entirely wrong, you know. A singular overpowered spellcaster absolutely can rule the world alone. There are ways to create infinite loyal clones of yourself, or infinite powerful intelligent Constructs built to be forever loyal. And arguably the Red God's ultimate plan is in fact making him absolute ruler of every world at once, isn't it?
...
More seriously, the reason he's not entirely wrong is because the increase in power differential between "an immortal Dragon with armies of loyal constructs vs the people and lesser nobility" is immensely greater than the balance of power between a knight and his smallfolk. And of course the knight will eventually die, too!
We could stay in power by pandering to a tiny segment of the population (PCs over level 15 + whoever controls the Flesh Forges) while knights have to keep an entire class of men-at-arms and hedge knights happy and loyal. And the knights don't even have access to epic Diplo, mind control, constant surveillance, etc.
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What you are describing is a basically a run of the mill banana republic. A single strongman in the lead, with only a few key supporters to help him maintain control. The problem is, if a few of those high-level PCs or Fleshcrafters get it into their head that they could instead find a different arrangement that is more beneficial to them, you are toast, since what little enforcement apparatus you have goes poof. The fewer people who have any power in the state, the more powerful those people become.

This is a highly unstable rule. One that will not see you last even a human lifetime, let alone a dragons.

Also, this whole "ruling because of dragons, yada, yada"-thing crops up regularly and it's basically just a lazy rehash of the Great Person theory of history. Which triggers me something fierce. It is way beyond my bullshit tolerance levels.
 
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Azel said:
What you are describing is a basically a run of the mill banana republic. A single strongman in the lead, with only a few key supporters to help him maintain control. The problem is, if a few of those high-level PCs or Fleshcrafters get it into their head that they could instead find a different arrangement that is more beneficial to them, you are toast, since what little enforcement apparatus you have goes poof. The fewer people who have any power in the state, the more powerful those people become.

This is a highly unstable rule. One that will not see you last even a human lifetime, let alone a dragons.
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Again, this is D&D 3.5. We can make it last eons if we want, because of two things :
  • A high-level Diplomancer absolutely can endlessly maintain the loyalty of a small number of people
  • A high-level Mythic Sorcerer with blinged-out gear absolutely can keep a dozen Fleshforgers in line under threat of annihilation, because "killing a single target" is always possible once you get to a high enough level in this game (well, assuming you're more personally powerful than them, of course).
Your points are all 100% valid in the real world, but this isn't the real world. It's closer to the weirder parts of ancient mythology, in which heroes (and Gods) are all that really matters in the end.

Azel said:
Also, this whole "ruling because of dragons, yada, yada"-thing crops up regularly and it's basically just a lazy rehash of the Great Person theory of history. Which triggers me something fierce. It is way beyond my bullshit tolerance levels.
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I don't understand what you mean here. Please explain. "Ruling because of Dragons"?

Oh, and I'm not into Great Man history either. Search "institutionalism" in this thread and you'll find me rambling years ago about about what's more important : a society's number of high-level PCs, or its institutions and general structure?
 
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TalonofAnathrax said:
Again, this is D&D 3.5. We can make it last eons if we want, because of two things :
  • A high-level Diplomancer absolutely can endlessly maintain the loyalty of a small number of people
  • A high-level Mythic Sorcerer with blinged-out gear absolutely can keep a dozen Fleshforgers in line under threat of annihilation, because "killing a single target" is always possible once you get to a high enough level in this game.
Your points are all 100% valid in the real world, but this isn't the real world. It's closer to the whackier parts of ancient mythology, in which heroes (and Gods) are all that really matters, in the end.
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I'd dispute the first one under any sensible DM (since the default D&D diplomacy rules are garbage and I have never seen anyone play them straight) and consider the second one unlikely, since there's always some obscure spell or combination of Feats that can wreck your build in particular. And at worst, the Heroic Revolution will straight up call for divine assistance to kick your only demi-god level ass. Infinite power scale driven by plot convenience swings both ways.
TalonofAnathrax said:
I don't understand what you mean here. Please explain. "Ruling because of Dragons"?

Oh, and I'm not into Great Man history either. Search "institutionalism" in this thread and you'll find me rambling years ago about about what's more important : a society's number of high-level PCs, or its institutions and general structure?
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It's a running theme that dragons are, for one reason or another, highlighted as an important aspect of Viserys ability to rule. Likewise, they keep being brought up as the reason Valyria ruled everything.

Which is why Marwyn doing the same triggered me so hard. He explicitely was talking about:
DragonParadox said:
"There are checks on a lord's power, his vassals, his people, his neighbors. There are no checks upon a sorcerer lord's, or so she believes after having seen the wreck of Valyira. A system that hinges upon a single lever shall break upon that lever, after having learned of the Empire That Was before all Empires."
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Offensive piece highlighted.

I mean, it's just dumb. (And in my defense, I closed my rant with throwing shade at Lanna, since Marwyn may or may not have paraphrased her here and I acknowledged that he might know better a few posts after the vote.) Valyria in particular is an example of the power of institutions trumping raw physical might. If Valyria was operating by the "single lever" of dragon = power, then every time there was a disagreement, people would have mounted their dragons and started burning each others houses down, like a bunch of idiotic cavemen. Except not even cavemen did moronic stuff like that, as evident by the fact that we as as species didn't go extinct!


And I didn't mean to imply that you were an advocate of the Great Man nonsense and would like to apologize if you felt I made that allegation. I know your position on that matter.

It's just that Carlyle was a boot licking little proto-fascist and the kind of people who endorse his fetishes for the Ubermensch are odious little goblins and I have to deal with them far too often.
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by Duesal on Sep 16, 2020 at 1:21 PM, finished with 107 posts and 14 votes.
  • [X] Plan He Should Have Studied Politics
    -[X] The idea that a sorcerer lords power is wholly unrestrained is laughable. A knight in heavy armor surrounded by his men at arms might be nothing compared to a powerful mage, but to the smallfolk, they are equally unassailable in their personal power. Yet evidence shows that the knight can't rule by fear alone, no matter how many have tried to do so. His power to compel others to act by force is limited by the reach of his blade. Likewise, the sorcerer is limited by what spells he can threaten his subjects with. To rule like this is to rule over slaves who will only obey as long as the whip is cracked at them and the state of Essos and Slavers Bay shows how well such systems work.
    -[X] To rule means to act in accordance with an often unspoken consensus between those governing and those governed. The governed will obey the commands of the governing as long as those are seen as legitimate in the frame of a societal agreements. A Legionnaire obeys his officer, because the officer has been imbued with the royal authority to give his commands. A citizen will obey the lawmen because they have been imbued with the authority to enforce the laws. But this authority rests on the royal authority being seen as legitimate by the governed and the system can only work as long as that is given.
    -[X] The Imperium works because both the absorbed governments and the population of these entities have been convinced that the actions of the Imperium at large are beneficial to them, the laws just and their application fair. If the people assumed that the lawmen were enforcing the laws unfairly, they would disobey them. If they thought the courts ruled unfairly, they would avoid the judgement of the courts. If they thought the orders of their leader were not in their own interest, they would see to subvert and twist them. Force can be used to force compliance anyway, but said force requires compliance in turn. A sorcerer lord can't stand behind every lawman, every court and every governor to back up their orders with violence. Those institution would be worthless if that had to be done. Even the sorcerer has to rely on regular people to buy into the idea of his authority and to enforce it for him.
    -[X] The Empire of the Dawn broke because it was invaded by foreign powers seeking to sunder it. The Valyrian Freehold broke because a catastrophe destroyed the centralized leadership that kept it together in a single moment. If he thinks that Tywin Lannisters rule could survive to see Lannisport burned down by Daemons and Casterly Rock being turned to rubble by a cataclysmic explosion, indulge in some honest laughter. If you were to look for an empire that was not sundered by cataclysm, one has only to look at Yi-Ti, which still exists after millennia, even though it has a history of strife and civil war like any other realm.
    -[X] Long story short, to assume that the Imperium rests on the direct power of it's ruler shows a stunning lack of understanding of the forces and rules of government. It would be impossible to forge a realm covering half a continent on the basis of fear and violence alone. You do however understand why self-important Westerosi Lords like Lanna would think otherwise, what with their love of reducing the history of the world to singular acts of "great people" and turning the population at large and the means of government into window dressings of their tales.
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Part MMMDCXLVII: Paths of Power
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    • Paths of Power ​

    Twenty Ninth Day of the Second Month 294 AC

    You consider your answer carefully. It seems absurd on the face of it, especially from one as learned and well traveled as Marwyn. On the other side of the coin perhaps he is not sure if you understand the mechanisms of your own empire and their implications fully. No matter how many deeds you performed nor how bright you shine to mage-sight you are yet only eight and ten, and youth is often assumed to be headlong.

    "The idea that a sorcerer lord's power is wholly unrestrained is laughable," you reply in a measured manner, turning the sphere of healing magic by which you pay the price of wishes in your hand, the light of sorcery playing between your fingers for emphasis. "A knight in heavy armor surrounded by his men-at-arms might be nothing compared to a powerful mage, but to the smallfolk they are equally unassailable in their personal power. Yet evidence shows that the knight can't rule by fear alone, no matter how many have tried to do so. His power to compel others to act by force is limited by the reach of his blade. Likewise, the sorcerer is limited by what spells he can threaten his subjects with. To rule like this is to rule over slaves who will only obey as long as the whip is cracked at them, and the state of Essos and Slaver's Bay shows how well such systems work."

    "So the Imperial Times writes to great acclaim," the archmaester replies wryly. "Yet a student of history cannot help but note that slavery has existed for as long as there have been men to practice it upon their fellows. If all tyrants were doomed to failure of malfunction than it would not be so much the way of the world."

    "And do those realms seem well suited to face the world as it now is, Wisdom?" you ask in like tone. "To rule means to act in accordance with an often unspoken consensus between those governing and those governed. The governed will obey the commands of the governing as long as those are seen as legitimate in the frame of a societal agreements. A legionnaire obeys his officer because the officer has been imbued with the royal authority to give his commands. A citizen will obey the lawmen because they have been imbued with the authority to enforce the laws. But this authority rests on the royal power being seen as legitimate by the governed and the system can only work as long as that is given."

    "An age of silver..." the archmaester muses under his breath. At your curious look he adds. "An old prophecy from the Whispering Stones of Asabhad, like as not nonsense or worse as most such things are, but the mind still enjoys idly teasing out meanings." Taking on a tone of practiced recitation that you imagine did not see much use in the Citadel's lecture halls he continues:

    An age of silver will rise from old flame and tarnished gold
    Fruits of blood from the tree of knowledge falling
    Blade thrice reforged cuts through the cold
    Ware thee the storm from the poisoned seas rising     ​

    "I imagine you can guess that it is no mere chill it refers to, but the first line is generally held to refer to a new age from the ashes of the Empire of Dawn. I begin to wonder if its meaning might not be more obscure and more prosaic all at once. Silver is a metal from which men strike coin, worth no more than they are willing to pay for it, yet by that does the world turn."

    You nod, consigning the verse to memory and making a note to ask for a copy of the original verse. Prophecy does not bind one's fate, but it may yet illuminate an unnoticed peril in the darkness ahead. Instead you continue on to less mystical though certainly not less important matters: "The Imperium works because both the absorbed governments and the population of these entities have been convinced that the actions of the Imperium at large are beneficial to them, the laws just and their application fair. If the people assumed that the lawmen were enforcing the laws unfairly, they would disobey them. If they thought the courts ruled unfairly, they would avoid the judgement of the courts. If they thought the orders of their leader were not in their own interest, they would see to subvert and twist them. Force can be used to force compliance anyway, but said force requires compliance in turn. A sorcerer lord can't stand behind every lawman, every court and every governor to back up their orders with violence. Those institutions would be worthless if that had to be done. A sorcerer is not a god."

    "And even a god is not a god, or at least not in the way most of the faithful see them, eh?" A brief smile pulls at the archmaester's rough features, making him look if anything even more like the kind of person who would not be out of place in Drowned Town shaking down shopkeepers for protection money. Having actually done so yourself you can hardly disapprove. "Tywin Lannister seeks to move priests upon his board, you would move Powers that rule them."

    "I prefer to think of it as a mutually beneficial alliance," you temporize. "Trying to manipulate such entities is foolish, seeing to both their interests and the realm's is only good sense."

    "At least you did not say common sense," Marwyn offers, soft enough not to interrupt though clearly wishing to be heard. The years of being the least favored archmaester in the Citadel have honed quite the sardonic wit. In a more normal tone he adds, "One might worry at where the interests of inhuman and vastly powerful beings will turn should the day come when you can no longer mediate the alliance."

    You give him the first truly surprised look of the meeting. Was he not the one with the reputation for going to sailors' temples and conversing with foreign priests as much as hedge witches?

    Reading your expression the archmaester replies simply, "I have no quarrels with priests that do not seek quarrels with me. The few times I have encountered true vessels of divine will... they have been less congenial."

    That you can well imagine, recalling some of Zherys' tales about Qohor. Most powers who remained able to touch the world at the nadir of magic would not have been as pleasant to interact with as the Old Gods. "You have spoken to Yss..." It was not a question, Marwyn had entered the temple sanctum publicly two weeks ago.

    "And I have found Him fascinating, yet the same alien nature would make him difficult for others to deal with, the same could be said of the Gods to Stone, Tree and Stream..."

    "And do you imagine Tywin lannister or anyone who might follow in his footsteps would do better?" you interject.

    "No, no, of course not," he waves the matter aside as he would a buzzing fly. "I was speaking of Lanna again. I fear sharing some of my experiences may have inadvertently poisoned the well there, if the devils, Deep Ones and stranger things did not." He shifts sightly in his seat. "Few mistake the meaning of the first word in the Golden Shields, but it is too easy to forget the second. I suspect the attachment to familiar values and traditional authority of lord and land is born in no small measure from seeing such horrors trying to tear them down."

    "So they, the Shields, Lanna, think of me a alien and inscrutable, or at least the herald of such?" You let some of your disbelief show. "I have literally spread both my history and my hopes for the future throughout Lannisport in secret. Short of personally sneaking the Imperial Times into the bedroom at Castamere I do not see how I could be better known."

    "Change, true, and sweeping change can be a terror of its own," the archmaester sighs. "Half a year ago I thought she was beginning to change her mind. She visited Sorcerer's Deep you know, then Myr just as the mirrors proclaimed the annexation of Braavos, but then she turned on her heel, grew more secretive from those outside the Shields. I imagine she thinks she has a chance to preserve the old world, something about those dragons they are force growing like herbs in a glass garden. Madness...."

    "Perhaps it is poor form for me to say, but yes I would not pit a dragon against the Moonchaser even Balerion himself," you nod.

    "They are not trying to use the dragons," Marywn replies to your surprise. "That is a lie for Baratheon."

    That much you can believe. Robert Baratheon is no more king to Tywn Lannister these days than Aenys Targaryen was to Maegor. "What are the Lannisters planning then?" you ask

    "Sacrifice and blood forging, crafting a weapon, an engine of sorcery bathed in the blood of dragons, invested with the purpose, the will to slay them, for all the good it will do them now," the archmaester replied, drawing a parchment from your desk and a stylus from his robes. "Here, let me show you how to get to the dragons and their forge. It would be a pity to let all that go to waste..."

    There is a hint of veiled sorrow in Marwyn's gaze, but his hand does not shake as lines flow under his hand.

    OOC: And this is where I have to put a cut and continue in an informational post simply because it would take too much space to write all he knows about the Golden Shields in narrative form and this is already a sizable update.
     
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    • DragonParadox said:
    "Sacrifice and blood forging, crafting a weapon, an engine of sorcery bathed in the blood of dragons, invested with the purpose, the will to slay them, for all the good it will do them now," the Archmaester replied, drawing a parchment from your desk and a stylus from his robes. "Here let me show you how to get to the dragons and their forge. It would be a pity to let all that go to waste..."
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    Oh. :D

    Bring it, Lanna.
     
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