Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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Raichu1972 said:
To my understanding, the choice is between "political expedience at the cost of ruffled feathers" vs "longer, more clandestine diplomacy done through messengers".

The end result for both options is diplomacy between (essentially) the Trident and Laurelorn, but one option can be, if not ignored, kept out of sight from the Southern Counts while the other clearly cannot.

This is not to say that we presumably can't ever invite a representative of Laurelorn to the Trident meetings in the future per se, but that we should absolutely understand the current political reality of the Empire, our role in it, and try not to cause unnecessary friction.
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Except any arrangement we make that has any real worth and a chance to last in the long term is going to come out in the air eventually. And it doesn't matter when it happens, because whoever dislikes us at that time is going to use it to attack us regardless. They are the ones causing the friction, not us.

So we might as well have it come out when we're strong. If we delay we may find ourselves in a situation where we want to come out with it but would be disadvantaged in doing so, because the political landscape changed under our feet while we delayed.
 
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[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
while I see your point about ruffling fewer feathers, there's several reasons that I think a faster approach will be more beneficial.

One I have already spoken about, regarding the mortality of the involved characters, that any one of us can die soon. Secondly, I think it's best to strike while the iron is hot. If we wait until the next time that the time the meeting is in Nordland, that will take 3 years, the next Ostland meeting, 4. If Laurelorn recovers significantly in that time, which I support helping them do so as much as we can, then there will be more voices arguing that the elves don't need to deal with humans. That they've fixed their problem themselves and that they don't to work with lesser races in order to survive.

At the moment, the wood elves of Laurelorn are vulnerable, the relationship with Athel Loren fraught, the future relationship with averlorn unknown, they are almost adrift in the world. This is the rare opportunity where we can offer something to them, and not just be the dependent party, but instead exist as true equals. I don't know for how much longer this opportunity will last, which is why I support inviting her now instead of in the future.

In regards to others not being informed, I will once again reiterate that the meeting is in about a year, so all involved parties will know who is coming many months in advanced. Nobody will show up there surprised.
 
065tdsa said:
Except any arrangement we make that has any real worth and a chance to last in the long term is going to come out in the air eventually. And it doesn't matter when it happens, because whoever dislikes us at that time is going to use it to attack us regardless. They are the ones causing the friction, not us.

So we might as well have it come out when we're strong. If we delay we may find ourselves in a situation where we want to come out with it but would be disadvantaged in doing so, because the political landscape changed under our feet while we delayed.
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For one, I would want to actually check with Stephan and Ortrud to see if they were actually okay with this, since they very well may not be because of their own internal/inter-Empire political situation.

For another, there are currently a decent number of Counts that are politically neutral towards us that we can butter up/keep neutral with some effort I believe. I also believe that they could be sufficiently swayed by the current anti-Trident bloc if we make too overt a move against Imperial sensibilities. We totally can do this if we really want to/find something important enough to do so, but I don't think this in particular would qualify. Not because I don't value a relationship with Laurelorn, but because I don't think this statement is immediately necessary. I could be wrong though, and am open to being convinced.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.

From a reader's POV, I think Naraiel coming to the next Trident meeting would be fantastic.
From a player's POV, I'm going with the option the diplomatically savvy characters In-Quest advocate, rather than the one advocated by Mena, who is great, but also about as subtle and thoughtful as a brick to the face.
 
Well, Raichu, we are going to talk with Stephen before even coming home, so he will be informed of the situation in the next day probably. Ortrud will take longer, as that will require actual messages being sent back and forth, but that shouldn't be too hard as we already talk all the time.

To be perfectly honest, I don't find inviting her right now to be ideal either. I rather do it a month from now, after we hear Stephen and Ortrud's opinions. But as Frederick has already stated, he is sure that Stephen would like the opportunity to talk to her about improving relations, so there isn't too much to be concerned about in that regard.

In an ideal world, there could be an option for speaking first to our fellow counts and then sending a message with an invitation, but, [ ] write in, wasn't an option. Despite that, I would still rather take this opportunity now, rather than miss out on a chance for her to come along at some point, which is why I am voting the way I am.
 
Can I just say how much I love the relationship between Freddy and Eldyra. The poor girl has been without a father figure for so long and Freddy instinctively steps in.

Glad that they are certain to meet up again soon once Everqueen is rested up and returns to talk to the Wood Elves. Hope they meet each other at least somewhat regularly after that.

Freddy might only be around in Eldrya's life for a short time, but I have a feeling it will leave a big impact for her. I hope she meets rest of family so maybe she can befriend the whole bloodline! That way there is a piece of Freddy she can always talk to in his descendants.
 
Raichu1972 said:
For another, there are currently a decent number of Counts that are politically neutral towards us that we can butter up/keep neutral with some effort I believe. I also believe that they could be sufficiently swayed by the current anti-Trident bloc if we make too overt a move against Imperial sensibilities. We totally can do this if we really want to/find something important enough to do so, but I don't think this in particular would qualify. Not because I don't value a relationship with Laurelorn, but because I don't think this statement is immediately necessary. I could be wrong though, and am open to being convinced.
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Any agreement we make quietly and keep secret is an agreement that will be pointless and expire as quickly as usual agreements between Humans and Asrai do, so at some point we will have to reveal it and eat the damage for making it because Asrai aren't approved of by the Empire in general. This is true if we do it right now, or if we do it later.

The difference is that if Frederick, Stephan and Ortrud make a move against imperial sensibilities, stand together and have Emperor Magnus to back them, then its manageable because all of these people have proven track records.

The way this becomes less true is if one or more of them die between now and later, making our position less solid.
 
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[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
The only shame about this vote, which I am admittedly passionate about, is that it has distracted me from my traditional Eldyra fawning. She is just so pure and good. If I was in Frederick's position I would not be able to restrain myself from ruffling her hair. Really my favorite side character this entire arc.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[X] Trident and Dawn: While Mena could have been more delicate and thought out about it, the idea does hold a bit of merit. An expediency and efficiency that you can certainly appreciate. Plus, the Trident Meeting last year was Stephan's, which means you're hosting this year. Which means you can invite whoever you want. It will be quite visible, however, even if her participation is short. On the other hand, the sooner you can get into it, the faster it will be done with, and hopefully for the better.

Strike while the iron is hot. Both Stephan and Ortrud will be aware of who we're inviting well before the meeting, I'm sure. But let's get this deal made and done before opposition on the Asrai side can possibly gather support.

Other Electors may hear rumors, so what? If it comes up, we're improving relations with the neighboring Asrai, making things more secure and peaceful in our own provinces and the Empire as a whole.
 
WAAAGH!!
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Age of Reckoning has taught me that there needs to be three exclamation points otherwise it doesn't work.

I like how Eldrya is having to come to terms with human mortality, and how random it can be. A very sobering subject for her, much needed after downing a shot of moonshine.

[X] A Quieter Approach

I feel like we should consult Big Magnus before we start openly communicating with the elves.
 
The Trident already is a semi-independent major polity within the Empire. Three elector counts meeting on the yearly and coordinating with each other while the other provinces bordering them are not invited? Yeah. Power bloc. One that will look inward in response to exterior pressures. That's already going to do Interesting Things when Magnus the Pious finally kicks the bucket, and it's exacerbated by tensions with Middenland.

The danger with diplomacy with the Wood Elves -- which is too good a chance to pass up, mind, because it is the direction that things *must go* if the overall stage is to move in a positive direction -- is that it amounts to this quasi-independent major power bloc starting to carry out organized foreign relations independent of the empire.

It's one thing to be a power bloc. It's another thing to be a power bloc which is starting to act like it's independent; which is starting to look like it's only acknowledging the Empire as its superpolity because it feels like it. People would look at Laurelorn joining the Trident meetings as... Well. Bluntly: with Laurelorn on their side, the Trident could walk out of the Empire in response to the election of an emperor it found distasteful, and there would be very little anyone could do about it.

And this is ignoring the brewing tensions with other provinces, *and* the existing tensions between Laurelorn and non-Trident provinces.

There are circumstances in which doing exactly that -- crashing the Trident out of the Empire and allying with Laurelorn -- would be a really fucking good idea. Encouraging people to look at us like we're going to do that is a horrible idea. Inviting Laurelorn to the Trident meetings when we don't invite (and can't invite convincingly) e.g. Middenland? Everyone knows the Trident is *deeply* allied internally and that the meetings are part of that.

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That's one half of the coin.

The other half of the coin goes like this: so what?

So what if the Trident is functionally an independent bloc inside the Empire. By the nature of the quest, Ostland is always going to be aware that its best interest is to keep the southern polities of the Empire in good health. The biggest danger to that by far would come in the form of an emperor hostile in some measure to the Trident. Above all we do not want that, for reasons I am sure are obvious. But if the Trident can rise from its position as a dangerously powerful bloc possibly warranting suppression, to a bloc which cannot safely be suppressed and must instead be courted, then this is a very good thing for Ostland, the Trident, and the Empire as a whole, because Ostland will always be aware it is in its best interest that the south remain healthy.

Open ties to Laurelorn could come very, very close to pushing the Trident across that line because of many of the exact things already discussed. If the Trident also made it policy to Emperormake southerners instead of accepting the Emperorship itself, I think we'd be there.

So:

So what?
 
[X] Trident and Dawn: While Mena could have been more delicate and thought out about it, the idea does hold a bit of merit. An expediency and efficiency that you can certainly appreciate. Plus, the Trident Meeting last year was Stephan's, which means you're hosting this year. Which means you can invite whoever you want. It will be quite visible, however, even if her participation is short. On the other hand, the sooner you can get into it, the faster it will be done with, and hopefully for the better.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
Interesting perspective kaizuki.

I am deeply on the "so what" side, as you pointed them out. The trident is likely not going to walk away from the empire ever, but if the day ever comes where we see it as necessary, having the option is better than not having the option. Further, if we chose to walk away right now, the northern trident as a whole, I doubt the rest of the empire could stop us. Consider our ties to the dwarves and Kislev.

It would be a brutal brutal civil war in any case, one that I would hate to see. It would shatter the power of the empire in the old world for decades.

In any case, the northern trident has never acted against the interests of any other imperial province. We aren't the ones who send out damaging trade proposals or anything of the sort. Our goal has been and will always be to strengthen ourselves a shield for the rest of the empire. If the southern provinces now have wood elves indirectly contributing to their safety, they should be thankful and not complaining about "independent minded power blocks". I see the northern trident as power block akin to the sigmate church. People fear their power, yes, but no one is concerned about them seceding from the empire itself.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
torroar said:
"I'd say we can move past it."

A deep sigh of relief begins to escape her.

"However."

The sigh chokes off as she looks at you. In her ageless face, her eyes widen at whatever she sees reflected in your own. The purple and green, both of far brighter colors than her normal natural dark green, still fully obscure the whites entirely while visibly swirling. You've got no idea what she sees on your face, but whatever it is causes her well-tanned skin to pale ever so slightly. In almost every interaction you've ever had with the elves, it has been contemptuous in one shade or another. Annoyed. Disgusted. Surprised. Exasperated. Amused like on might be at a particularly intelligent beast. Only very, very recently have you seen entirely new expressions, ones solely on the faces of the Asrai you saw looking back at you at the Oak of Ages, and now, Naraiel.
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Anybody else read this then look right at Torroar's avatar? Cause it really sold it for me. Knew exactly the face she was looking at.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
Kaizuki said:
The Trident already is a semi-independent major polity within the Empire. Three elector counts meeting on the yearly and coordinating with each other while the other provinces bordering them are not invited? Yeah. Power bloc. One that will look inward in response to exterior pressures. That's already going to do Interesting Things when Magnus the Pious finally kicks the bucket, and it's exacerbated by tensions with Middenland.

The danger with diplomacy with the Wood Elves -- which is too good a chance to pass up, mind, because it is the direction that things *must go* if the overall stage is to move in a positive direction -- is that it amounts to this quasi-independent major power bloc starting to carry out organized foreign relations independent of the empire.

It's one thing to be a power bloc. It's another thing to be a power bloc which is starting to act like it's independent; which is starting to look like it's only acknowledging the Empire as its superpolity because it feels like it. People would look at Laurelorn joining the Trident meetings as... Well. Bluntly: with Laurelorn on their side, the Trident could walk out of the Empire in response to the election of an emperor it found distasteful, and there would be very little anyone could do about it.

And this is ignoring the brewing tensions with other provinces, *and* the existing tensions between Laurelorn and non-Trident provinces.

There are circumstances in which doing exactly that -- crashing the Trident out of the Empire and allying with Laurelorn -- would be a really fucking good idea. Encouraging people to look at us like we're going to do that is a horrible idea. Inviting Laurelorn to the Trident meetings when we don't invite (and can't invite convincingly) e.g. Middenland? Everyone knows the Trident is *deeply* allied internally and that the meetings are part of that.

...

...

...

...

...

That's one half of the coin.

The other half of the coin goes like this: so what?

So what if the Trident is functionally an independent bloc inside the Empire. By the nature of the quest, Ostland is always going to be aware that its best interest is to keep the southern polities of the Empire in good health. The biggest danger to that by far would come in the form of an emperor hostile in some measure to the Trident. Above all we do not want that, for reasons I am sure are obvious. But if the Trident can rise from its position as a dangerously powerful bloc possibly warranting suppression, to a bloc which cannot safely be suppressed and must instead be courted, then this is a very good thing for Ostland, the Trident, and the Empire as a whole, because Ostland will always be aware it is in its best interest that the south remain healthy.

Open ties to Laurelorn could come very, very close to pushing the Trident across that line because of many of the exact things already discussed. If the Trident also made it policy to Emperormake southerners instead of accepting the Emperorship itself, I think we'd be there.

So:

So what?
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The "So what?" Here is that the Empire in its current state is very, very nascent, since we have just left the Age of Three Emperors.

Having a group of Electors decide that they are an Empire in miniature, all but declare that their loyalty is to Magnus rather than the ideal of the Empire, and I can very easily forsee that age returning. That means very very bad things for us in case you were wondering.

Acting out like this won't cause the greater Empire to view the Trident as a faction to be courted; it will cause them to fracture among preexisting lines of loyalty from the Age of Three Emperors and rightfully view the Trident as a threat.

We really don't want that.
 
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