The last time the players got Magnus's opinion about politics. They did not leap into the solution Magnus offered. Treating Magnus as a master statesman right now without hearing what he offers as a suggestion... I'm worried going to him will be a waste of time, like what happened with Gunthar. Heard Magnus the Pious out, then proceed to not follow that advice very well. That's what it looked like to me.

Treating Magnus as the ultimate solution to all our political woes, that didn't work out last time. Magnus should be able to help, but if we refuse to follow the helpful advice, or if it isn't handed to us on a silver platter without our input. Could things turn out like it did when we went to him for advice on Gunthar?
To be fair it's not Magnus' fault the thread recoiled in horror from it as his solution was neither krumping nor showering it with money which is our solution for everything but instead it was slow incremental improvements via hard tedious work
 
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To be fair it's not Magnus' fault the thread recoiled in horror from it as his solution was neither krumping nor showering it with money which is our solution for everything but instead it was slow incremental improvements via hard tedious work
There's a reason Magnus didn't solve all the Empire's problems. That reason is he planned all his projects to steadily advance over time, with faith in his successors and humanity in general, and when he died they were inevitably abandoned.

His greatest successes are when he gets to hit things, either literally or metaphorically with his authority as basically a Living Saint.
 
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The reason why i want to ask Magnus is to prevent and unseen Trident like issues. Remember that he complained about that one. Might as well ask him if he foresees issues with this. Obviously we won't stop when/if he lists them out, but its good to know what you are getting into and to prepare for possible eventualities.
 
Politics. Blegh.

I have no idea which would be better for even human-Laurelorn relations, much less the human-human relations aspect. This stuff is complex.

For example, a meeting of the leaders of the north Empire provinces, of good friends, and now she joins up? What does that say to people? For one that she too likely leads a province equivalent in the north, and is friend.

This might be outright insulting to many an elf, Leurelorn being equivalent to a province, not the whole of Empire?

And so on and so forth. Diplomacy and politics are complex, important, and vague enough to make people dealing with them roll for sanity loss.

Ideally we should defer this decision until Natasha wakes up I think. She is far better at this stuff than we are.
 
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[X] Trident and Dawn: While Mena could have been more delicate and thought out about it, the idea does hold a bit of merit. An expediency and efficiency that you can certainly appreciate. Plus, the Trident Meeting last year was Stephan's, which means you're hosting this year. Which means you can invite whoever you want. It will be quite visible, however, even if her participation is short. On the other hand, the sooner you can get into it, the faster it will be done with, and hopefully for the better.

The meeting is at the end of the year. It's not next week, or in a month. I don't see it as being particularly rushed on the human side. Anyway, I have been supporting this idea from the beginning, and if you check my prior messages I argued for this almost every post I've had since the first epilogue. It would be hypocritical of me not to vote for this.

But I honestly do believe this is best way forward. As Frederick said, we don't know when anyone will die. I would have something solid in place before the above parties are gone. Inviting her to the trident meeting is the best way to form bonds as far as I can see. It gives individuals the chance to relate, to be able to put greater goals before their own pride, arrogance, or xenophobia. Nothing is scarier than the unknown, and this is the best way for us to be better known to each other.

As to people saying we are forcing Ortrud into something without informing her, I think that's disingenuous. Even if a great agreement is made at the trident meeting, it doesn't have to include her. Individual treaties between the three provinces are made all the tie at this meeting, it's not solely trident wide decrees. It's about giving leaders time to be face to face.

We are simply offering Ortrud front row seats to the negotiations that will occur between Laurelorn and Nordland, Laurelorn and Ostland, and perhaps between all 3. It's entirely her choice if she takes this front row seat as an active participant or as a mere observer.

The message we give her by doing this at the trident meeting is that we care about her opinion. Even if it's not her affair and we don't involve her province at all, we are keeping our negotiations with others in her eyes, giving her the opportunity to give her opinion or tell us if she is uncomfortable with out actions.The only problem I can see if she has some sort of irrational dislike of elves, and is upset just by Naraiel's mere presence, but she hasn't shown us to be that sort of openly racist and xenophobic person.

While the slower method isn't bad per say, I don't think it will lead to the ideal results. This is also a chance for the heirs of the trident to have a chance to see elves, even if they don't interact, discouraging the sort of disastrous future situation that the elves worry about.

As to the greater diplomatic consequences, I have already explained, that the people who will be upset by this are those who already dislike us. The xenophobes already hate us for our dealings with ogres, halflings, and dwarves. There was never going to be a chance to get into their good graces, and if there were, I wouldn't want to take it. Those who are our allies our supporters won't take this too badly probably. The only concern would be Magnus, but I can't imagine him seeing this as a problem personally, as long as we don't go too far with any actual agreements.

Overall, I see this as a golden opportunity, where the potential benefits outweigh the harm. Further, I think it is simply the narratively more interesting decision, and better shows Frederick's growth as a person. I don't mean for us to be as arrogant as Mena, but Ostland would not be anywhere near where it is today if we based our decisions on what those who are already our enemies would think of us.
 
Laurelorn is, fundamentally, Nordland's problem. No one offers Nordland any help with dealing with them, in the normal run of things, because its a giant pain and never works out. On principle, no one can give Stephan and us anything other than congratulations for dealing with his Laurelorn problem. The details of how we did it are really none of their business so long as we didn't do anything Illegal (which we didn't).

In practice certain people are always going to complain about anything we do because it benefits them to push us down. So its better to have it come out early and be defused before our current generation of prestigious leaders start dying, because we currently have the clout to deflect accusations easily.
 
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[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
"Don't worry about it," you tell her earnestly. "But I think I might have taken up enough of your time. I don't think we want Sir Tyrion coming to find us."

"Oh it is a bit late for that."

Eldyra does a remarkable rendition of turning the color of pure white snow as the blood drains from her face. Both of you turn to see Tyrion looking unamused from the hallway, arms still folded behind his back
"Caught alone accepting gifts by Sir Tyrion!"

"Not another word, Sadrina!"

I am a dumb idiot child who gets way too much enjoyment imagining Sadrina and Eldyra being besties with Sadrina constantly busting Elydra's chops about her new human friend.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[x] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.

this just sound like a far better way of doing things.
its not keeping stephan out of things from within his own lands and it prep everybody else for well whatever come after.
also give some more time too the elves to find someone to be diplomatic.
also helps to keep things a bit more long term and not short term thinking i think?
 
"It's…," she shakes her head and blinks away the wetness in her eyes. "He's been avenged, and laid to rest in the roots of Laurelocraobh. His cloak was a ruin, but I was able to bury him whole. Unlike my mother, whose killers I may never know for certain. I refuse to believe sh eco"
I'm not sure what this should be. Maybe it was intended to note a cut off 'she could', i.e. "refuse to believe she co-"?
"They probably like horses more than they like humans," you respond drily before seeing on of the more especially pack-laden members of the group. "There we go."
one
"Right, keep an eye on Natasha, I'm headed over to the tree."

Immediately, Karl turns about to call up other Greatswords, but you shake your head.

"No. I want them her at all times."
"here"? or "by her"?
"I heard you order 'them' to guard Lady Natasha. At no point was the phrase 'Karl Thorpes, do not escort me in case I come under attack from bloody assassins from who knows where or spirits or what have you come jumping up out of the ground or out of the air to come gut me, you know, like has happened before."
Karl starts quoting in-character, with the ' appearing, but then it does not appear again to close the quote. I think he would probably end the quoting at either "come gut me" or end it at the very end of the sentence itself too. Probably the latter actually, I think.
"…oh for goodness sake," you groan again before looking him up and down. "Account your flasks, sir."

"One Bugman's Best, two ostka, one Thunderwater."

"Ale or shine?"

"Shine, sir, Stromdorf doesn't export too much this far north."

Clearly running low, but not too bad.

"Fine, come on."
Ha! :D
"Or perhaps you would have gutted me from behind," you admit, which clearly satisfies that little bit of pride while immediately bringing her shame at having it in the first place. "More importantly, I apparently got her before it could come of much."
"to", maybe?
"Pretty much all of my greatest 'victories' are shared credit," you interrupt. "Against Zacharias, I'm sure they would have brought him down without me. The Bloodthirster at Nuln, I required magical protections from Teclis to survive the backlash, against Gruber and Slugtongue I needed aid from Shallya herself, Naraiel, and Ortrud. Gazul and King Ungrim and others against Skulltaker, and on and on."
The Bloodthirster also needed Rommel to help fight him, and to help save Frederick's life at the end. Poor Rommel. :(
"Regardless, it was Everqueen Camidys, daughter of Caradyel, who was ritually married to Tethlis, not Princess Finsoina.
Missing an R. Caradryel.
"You know, when I told you to tell the Gods to piss-,"

"I remember," she repeats a little bit louder this time, the words strangled. "I remember," she repeats a third time.

"…did you actually say what I told you to or something? Is that why you're acting all-,"

"So what is this one," she interrupts, holding up the other flask. "Thunder-water, I think you said? Shine?"

"Look," you say gently, "You're young. A bit of blasphemy at your age isn't anything to be ashamed-,"

Eldyra uncorks the thunder-water and takes a quick pull of it before the burn of it makes her cough.
Ha! :D
Not even the eagle yes of a Wood Elf could see past him.
eyes

It is created by smoking the flower of a specific variety of plant, the petals and stems crushed and pressed into…hmm…Ismurettes?"
Haha, a word for cigarettes. xD
"And an 'ismurette' is an…?"

"I don't know if it's right, I just came up with it. The word is based on another, Ismuir," Sunweaver responds while Naraiel gazes off somewhere into the middle distance. "It…hmm. Depending on context, inflection, the one speaking, and much more, it can mean many things. One of the root meanings, however, is 'Cloud'."
Getting lost in the clouds, huh.
"Ah," you nod. "Wait, one of?"

"Another root is mists," she adds, "The third is 'the secret paths'."

"Hold on," you squint at her. "What? It can mean cloud, or mists, or the secret paths? How could…how does that even…,"
Languages, heh.
"Apparently its sourced from Lustria, back when their explorers first reached it, I've never made a study of entomology," you shrug.
Entomology is the study of insects.

Etymology is the study of the origin of words and their meanings.
At a distance, one could mistake them for tattoos, but close up on can tell
one
In fact, you can spy similar markings across dozens of other of Mena's wolves
prrrrobably should be "others"? ... Or is that "other's" I don't know if an apostrophe is needed... (... I guess you can just remove it entirely and go with "across dozens of Mena's wolves". Grammar, how does it work anyway.)
"I doubt it would be well received by the rest of your Empire if I were to have a part in something reserved for three Elector Counts," she drawls slowly. "Humans often have…opinions on non-humans achieving positions of note within your nation."
Oh dear. Yes, that would be a bit... brash.
You can see, absolutely, why Mena's husband was selected to be one with skill and experience at court and in the art of diplomacy. The absolute arrogance of those words, and how they were delivered, staggers you. Naraiel realizes it as well, going by the surprised look on her face, with just a scant bit of dawning horror as she realizes that Mena is entirely serious.
Yeah.
"It would make things faster," she muses before shaking her head. "But the diplomatic consequences could be a bit more…interesting than I suspect would be preferable."

"What, you coming to the Trident Meeting to talk to me and Stephan in person?"
Yeah.
"We shall see," she shrugs again. "If he deigns to respond, tell him that we shall have some ready to receive his response by the beginning of summer, here at Oldenlitz," she sets her shoulders and gives you a firm nod. "But for now, our time is at an end," she nods to you and begin to trot her horse back towards where her guards and Sunweaver await.
some, or someone? (Or somebody?)


[] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.

Let's not spring this onto our fellow Electors as a fait accompli, please. Please let's not just rush immediately into it. Let's give them time to think about it and talk about it.

Don't... Just, yeah. Let's talk with them first.

In fact, this is the sort of thing the Trident Meeting is probably meant for, among other things (like acclimating heirs, and keeping up with each other and familiarizing heirs and such). First bringing the events and new things up, then the Electors talk, and then they decide how to proceed and whether to invite a Glade Lord to their next meeting or what.

EDIT: Moratorium wasn't there when I first typed this, and even refreshed a few times. Edited out the X.
 
[x] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.

Actual diplomatic thoughts, in my Frederick von Hohenzollern? It's less likely than you would think.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.

Maybe she can come to next year's meeting after we discuss it this year.
 
Apologies if I am confused, but there seems to be some sort of strange false dichotomy going on.

If we invite Nariael to the trident meeting, that doesn't mean that we won't do any normal diplomacy. As Frederick explained to Mena, the Trident meeting is almost a year away, and it would makes no sense for no diplomacy to occur for a year in wait of the meeting. Nariael already said that she was going to select a diplomat by the beginning of summer, months before the meeting.

The choice is, as far as I can tell, whether we decide to invite Nariael to the meeting on top of normal diplomacy, not replacing normal diplomacy. If the choice was "only meet Naraiel at meeting" vs "form a proper diplomatic relationship", I would obviously choose the quieter approach. But that isn't the case is it?

Correct me if I'm wrong Torroar, but trident and dawn is just adding an extra layer of personal connection and sending a message about how we view our relationship to Laurelorn. I think we value them highly enough to join our elector count meeting, and I think highly enough of Ortrud to giver her a chance to meet Naraiel herself.

That's why the trident and dawn option makes more sense to me. The normal diplomatic approach has never worked before, sure it's never been done to this extent, but I would still like to do whatever possible to make this relationship between us humans and wood elves as best and most beneficial as it can be.
 
To be fair it's not Magnus' fault the thread recoiled in horror from it as his solution was neither krumping nor showering it with money which is our solution for everything but instead it was slow incremental improvements via hard tedious work
"Then there is the issues with Gunthar," you add dryly, rubbing at your temples with your fingers. "Which…I've no idea how to solve without violence, and even then I doubt it would solve anything."

Magnus leans forward slightly, hands resting on his thighs, as he shakes his head from side to side.

"You might have to," he eventually says, shrugging yet somehow not making a single squealing sound in his armor. At your shocked look, he continues. "He holds stronger to Ulric than any I've ever seen in my life, save the Ar-Ulric, and even then it is a matter of barest degrees. An honest fight is one of the few things that could put the matter to rest, by his own faith. Then again, that largely is between Ulricans of equal standing. You'd have to get the Ar-Ulric to agree to it, then Gunthar."

No words manage to make their way past your slowly opening and closing mouth.

"That's…not…what I would have expected you to say, either," you eventually say, raising an eyebrow at the man.

The Emperor smirks sardonically, tilting his head.

"I know my brother," is all he says. "And I know his faith. Might makes right, as it were."

"So I'd have to beat him in a fight," you groan. "And beating him won't make him just hold an even deeper grudge?"
Freddy: "What is the solution to Gunthar?"
Emperor Magnus: "Krumping. Have the Ar-Ulric set things up."
 
[X] Trident and Dawn: While Mena could have been more delicate and thought out about it, the idea does hold a bit of merit. An expediency and efficiency that you can certainly appreciate. Plus, the Trident Meeting last year was Stephan's, which means you're hosting this year. Which means you can invite whoever you want. It will be quite visible, however, even if her participation is short. On the other hand, the sooner you can get into it, the faster it will be done with, and hopefully for the better.

And now I wonder how the Dwarfs living in the capital would react to this
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.

Conferring with the other Trident members before kicking this off would be nice. If nothing else it might give us way to either mitigate or avoid Gunthar going apeshit.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.

I've been having a truly miserable 24 hours, so this update was just the picker upper I needed for today.

Like how our explicit and early endorsement of magic was counterproductive to it's acceptance.
I'd argue that it was counterproductive in the short term but ultimately beneficial in the long term, honestly. That, and the fact that the Colleges acquainted themselves as well as they did during Sylvania's purging means that they probably won't be temporarily shut down as in OTL, now that much of the Empire has first-hand experience in regard to how much of a force mulltipier magic can truly be.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
Apologies if I am confused, but there seems to be some sort of strange false dichotomy going on.

If we invite Nariael to the trident meeting, that doesn't mean that we won't do any normal diplomacy. As Frederick explained to Mena, the Trident meeting is almost a year away, and it would makes no sense for no diplomacy to occur for a year in wait of the meeting. Nariael already said that she was going to select a diplomat by the beginning of summer, months before the meeting.

The choice is, as far as I can tell, whether we decide to invite Nariael to the meeting on top of normal diplomacy, not replacing normal diplomacy. If the choice was "only meet Naraiel at meeting" vs "form a proper diplomatic relationship", I would obviously choose the quieter approach. But that isn't the case is it?

Correct me if I'm wrong Torroar, but trident and dawn is just adding an extra layer of personal connection and sending a message about how we view our relationship to Laurelorn. I think we value them highly enough to join our elector count meeting, and I think highly enough of Ortrud to giver her a chance to meet Naraiel herself.

That's why the trident and dawn option makes more sense to me. The normal diplomatic approach has never worked before, sure it's never been done to this extent, but I would still like to do whatever possible to make this relationship between us humans and wood elves as best and most beneficial as it can be.
To my understanding, the choice is between "political expedience at the cost of ruffled feathers" vs "longer, more clandestine diplomacy done through messengers".

The end result for both options is diplomacy between (essentially) the Trident and Laurelorn, but one option can be, if not ignored, kept out of sight from the Southern Counts while the other clearly cannot.

This is not to say that we presumably can't ever invite a representative of Laurelorn to the Trident meetings in the future per se, but that we should absolutely understand the current political reality of the Empire, our role in it, and try not to cause unnecessary friction.
 
[X] Trident and Dawn: While Mena could have been more delicate and thought out about it, the idea does hold a bit of merit. An expediency and efficiency that you can certainly appreciate. Plus, the Trident Meeting last year was Stephan's, which means you're hosting this year. Which means you can invite whoever you want. It will be quite visible, however, even if her participation is short. On the other hand, the sooner you can get into it, the faster it will be done with, and hopefully for the better.
 
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