Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

Candesce said:

It's another ~12 minutes or so to start voting for the rune weapons. Can we at least wait until then?

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TotallyNotEvil said:

I ask that you, who's made so far into the discussion, bear with me for a minute.

There are two ways to approach the Sword issue: mechanics and narrative. Some points blur the line, but I will try to start with the former and end up with the later.

The fist thing realizes upon comparing the WHFB stats of humans and virtually everything else, is that humans suck.

Their Strenght and Toughness caps at a measly 4, Karl Franz, the goddamn designated-protagonist and Emperor, has a Weapon Skill of 6. Their Initiative is low to middling, their movement nothing to talk about.

So, how do human heroes kill dragons and daemons and Giants and Orc Boss and all sorts of monsters?

Gear. Most notably, Ghal Maraz and the Runefangs. There weapons turn a statline that, in another army, would be a elite mook/low level hero, and turn them into Everchosen killers.

That's how humans, elves and dwarves do it. Their equipment makes the monster's tough hide irrelevant, its towering constitution worthless, and might well slay them in a single blow.

Now, Mathilde already has Hero-level stats for a human. When we reach Advanced Greatswords, she will be sitting in human Lord range. She is perfectly worthy, skill-wise, of the sort of gear that elevates humans to monster slayers.

Now, like I said, gear adresses the fundamental imbalance between humans and monsters. How it does that is simple: Strenght.

Or, more accurately, they make it so the human's low Strenght is either remedied, or made irrelevant. Runefangs, Ghal Maraz, Teclis' sword- they all do it.

Problem is, it's flat out impossible to make more Runefangs or Ghal Marazes, and Teclis isn't about to sit in a workshop all day turning out magic swords.

Besides that, the dwarves need gromril to put their strongest runes in, and that's very, very hard to come by.

These day's best runesmithing is only capable of a third rate imitation of what those weapons of legend can do. They are nice, but not even in the same neighborhood.

Enter Kragg's Master Rune: all attacks are made at Strenght 10. For those who don't know, that's a ten out of ten.

It's brilliant, because you effectively ignore armor, as there is no armor capable of providing resistance against that much Strenght, and almost wound automatically: even against ancient dragons, you only need a 2+ on a d6.

For a wimpy S4 human (or an even windier S2 Elf, like Teclis, whose sword does exactly that, ignore armor and wound on 2+), that rune alone is a dream come true. And, due the magic of runesmithing, that's only a third of the weapon's potential runeslots used.

You might be thinking, "but TNE, we just need that S10 thingy and we are fine, right? Kragg steps in at 15, so that's good enough". Yeah, that'd be true... If Boney hadn't said that a 15 favor weapon, on a Kragg scale, is merely average, something he bangs out in a long afternoon. Does that sound like a product that'd bear his masterwork?

Consider furthermore that we want a sword. That's another tick on the "this is on the mediocre side of average", again on the Kragg scale.

Lastly, the weapon would be made out of steel. And I doubt the finest steel in the world would tolerate the kind of abuse a S10 rune would cause. Another ding against a fifteen favors weapon cutting it.

So, 20 favor? It's a big maybe, on one hand, this is one of his finer works, on the other, his rune is considered "experimental" by himself, and the metal issue arises again. And, at that point, it's a short hop to 25.

It's fundamentally a good investment to spend favor in big items whenever we can: we have very limited item slots, and things like the sword can only be bought in singular lump sums. We can spend twenty five favor on a library without blinking, but that's going to be not only a very small incremental bonus, but it will end up exactly the same as twenty five purchase of one favor.

Whenever we are comitting more than a tiny bit of favor to something, we should weight it against just taking the plunge and getting top-shelf, because the penny-pinching is enormously costly in opportunity cost. Because anything better has to retread ground.

Think of the possibilities the ability to shatter a fortress' gates with the pommel of our sword would bring. The mayhem we could cause, the targets we could take.

There's more. The assassination angle is so often brought up because it causes a disproportionate amount of damage to the enemy, but not only that, it's by far a more dangerous proposition than an open battle.

Conterintuitive? Maybe, but the Seed changes the equation. On a battlefield, there's no shortage of allies to fight at our side, or for the enemy that fells us to focus on. It gives time and room for the Seed to bring us back. On an assassination gone wrong, unless we are very lucky, our target who turned the tables on us would just kee stabbing our twitching corpse until the Seed runs out.

And Mathilde has never shied away from either battle or infiltration. The later is how we've made such enormous contributions to the campaign. So every little bit that might help her survive the incredibly dangerous task she so often assigns to herself is worth it.

Now, if you aren't interest in mechanics beyond "it will be killy", there's the narrative side to consider.

In portuguese, we have a saying: "fechar com chave de ouro", which roughly translates to "to end it on a high note", but perhaps more intense.

This entire Expedition has been nothing short of record breaking. It's been legendary deed after legendary deed, it exceed the expectations of the most hopeful of optimists to such a degree that it shifted the entirety of the Dwarven political landscape.

And, in one of the sweetest GM comments, on answering "what does our 57 reputation mean", he explained it beautifully and succintly: "to anyone who knows about it, it's a tale of Belengar Ironhammer, Kragg the Grim and Mathilde Weber".

I don't know about you, but reading that felt awesome.

And now, it's seems that by divine providence, things have aligned: we've found a big chunk of ancient gromril.

Consider the following QM statements:
- Gromril, while insanely valuable, is worth the most as a symbol.
- Weapons are what legends are built upon.
-- The sort of weapon that does that is the sort that's forged by a master among masters, a legend himself, using legendary materials.
- One of the three members of the legend of Retaking of Karak 8 Peaks is a legendary runesmith.
- The Human Hero of K8P just found an ancient, battered set of gromril armor. A chunk of legendary material, fit to be reforged.

I don't think I have to spell out any further. "The Dwarven King commissions a legendary weapon out of gratitude to his unexpected friend, the Human Hero" is literally the founding legend of the Empire.

A 25 favor weapon is a legendary piece of artifice, requiring a legendary smith and legendary materials. Most of all, a legendary weapon requires a legend.

We have the Legend of Mathilde Weber, Hero of Karak 8 Peaks. We have a legendary smith, Kragg the Grim, also a hero of the reclamation. And we have King Belengar Ironhammer, filled with gratitude so deep that he, a Dwarven King, swore to move mountains to see a wish of ours come true, whom was just handed a significant amount of legendary material by Mathilde.

This is how you turn a success story into a legend that will be spoken for the rest of Karaz Ankor's existence. The story of reclamation, unlikely valorous allies, heroic deeds and legendary feats, a sweeping victory of such magnitude that it gave a spark of hope to an entire race.

You tie the cornerstones of said legend into the making of a weapon, because nothing stokes the fires of the heart like a legendary weapon that ties the tale together.

It's the chave de ouro, the golden key, the perfect high note. I urge you, vote to reforge the glory of the past into a symbol of the future. Vote to found a legend.

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ichypa said:

Dhar: Not even once.

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picklepikkl said:

I'm honestly shocked by how little traction the knight has gotten and how enthusiastic everyone is about Badass Merchant Guy. This is probably a combination of "people who know more about the setting have reservations about the Brettonian thing" and "people who were hyped about Steward and expanding the EIC wanting another mercantile type around."

But she's so cool. Mad respect for someone whose response to society censuring her for trying to be a good person was to flip them off and do the same thing, only harder and for other people.

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primemountain said:

I get you think it's cool, but chill, eh?

You're acting as if Mat is the hero of the story. And she is, of our story. She'll certainly have a prominent place in the stories told.

But you're pushing that whole inspirational savior angle a bit too hard there mate. King Belegar and Kragg the Grim will be heroes, more told and sung off, than some umgi Wizard. Not to mention the literral thousands who fought there. So chill, ok?

She a hero of the story of K8P, but not "The Hero". That's almost certain to end up being Belegar. He is King after all, that has perks. Though Runelords are kings as well, so Kragg might take if for splitting the heavens and the earth. It was certainly impressive enough.

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DiceOfStupidity said:

Problem with going for a legend is that Mathilde will not be doing anything that needs legendary item. No heroic battles. No personal defence against of great evil. No changing tide of battle. Getting something like that and not putting it to suitable use is a bit of insult. Having legendary weapom will make people expect Mathilde to do legendary deeds. Not something we would want.

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primemountain said:

I get you think it's cool, but chill, eh?

You're acting as if Mat is the hero of the story. And she is, of our story. She'll certainly have a prominent place in the stories told.

But you're pushing that whole inspirational savior angle a bit too hard there mate. King Belegar and Kragg the Grim will be heroes, more told and sung off, than some umgi Wizard. Not to mention the literral thousands who fought there. So chill, ok?

She a hero of the story of K8P, but not "The Hero". That's almost certain to end up being Belegar. He is King after all, that has perks. Though Runelords are kings as well, so Kragg might take if for splitting the heavens and the earth. It was certainly impressive enough.

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Alratan said:

BoneyM has explicitly told us that as far as the dwarves are concerned, there are three heroes of the retaking of karak Eight Peaks. Belegar, Kragg the Grimm, and Mathilde. Then there are some other guys as well.

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Humbaba said:

I'll be honest I'm significantly less interested in a 25 favour sword for out of quest reasons.

A 15 favour belt was beyond anything we could have imagined. It made Mathilde immune to Dhar. We'd never have even considered something like that possible. 25 favours on anything must be massively beyond even that.

And that's the problem. I worry that a 25 Favour sword is essentially a capstone, making Mathilde so badass that adding on qyish juice manipulation or Theurgy would take her into unplayable territory. Or make it necessary to drastically upscale the threats Mathilde is dealing with, getting the really heavy hitters after us right now.

People keep talking about a 25 favour sword as a game changer, but I'm worried it'll become a game definer, or even a game ender.

"Should I use risky magic or hit it with my super sword?" Hit it with the super sword, obviously.

A 25 favour sword feels like a capstone to Mathilde's journey. And if we have to have a final capstone then discount high magic, or super enchanting, or theurgy seem much more enticing to me.

I may not be being very rational here, and I'm sure BoneyM will do their best. But that's how I feel.

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Alratan said:

The sabotage/anti-fortification potential of a really good weapon.
Other things can be bought incrementally as we get more favours over time, a super weapon has to be bought at once.

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primemountain said:

But you're pushing that whole inspirational savior angle a bit too hard there mate. King Belegar and Kragg the Grim will be heroes, more told and sung off, than some umgi Wizard. Not to mention the literral thousand who fought there.

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Guile said:

@BoneyM , would 'Greenskin Magic' be a separate topic to 'Greenskin', RE: library texts? I notice Warptech is its own topic.

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Deathbybunnies said:

Having thought about it, if we get a sword I'd like it to be a 25 Favour sword... but I'd rather not get another sword just yest. We're settling into a long period of study, and will doubtless have many fancy things to spend our favours on - such as pimping out our Wizard Tower. Leave the sword purchase for later.

Alternatively, there is an argument for learning to wield an Greataxe instead, and getting a 25 favour one. For roughly ~3 actions of training (maybe less, given that some Greatsword knowledge might carry over) we can get what would truly be the peak of Dawi craftsmanship.

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