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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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BungieONI said:
I'm not really, because the Dwarfs do not talk about it ever anywhere anyone other than the dwarf they are intending to tell can hear it. It would make a lot of sense to me that the Grey simply doesn't know about the Dawi-Zharr because they are that big of a shame for the Dwarfs.
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The Dawi Zhar have fought in small number against Kislev and the Empire as mercenaries in chaos armies and, I think, during the Great War on Chaos in Magnus' time. The idea of chaos affiliated dwarves shouldn't be unknown as a result. That there's a society of them would be more of a surprise, but they'd expect that there can be cultists from any sapient species. There are examples of Slaneeshi dwarves out there, for example.


notanautomaton said:
I didn't think this was word games so much as basically explicitly stated. Codrin is seeing magical phenomenon, which according to Realms of Sorcery is one of the three possible signs that someone has magical potential. The other two being feeling magic (becoming emotional or sweating when around Aqshy, for instance), and being able to manipulate magic (either by blatantly performing magic or just being lucky). Notably, few potential mages have all three, with the ones that do having the highest potential. I thought that's what you were going for when canonizing it.
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I thought it seemed more that he was feeling what we knew was magic, although he didn't, i.e. unknowingly having Aethyric attunement. Note though that you need all three magical senses to become a trained magic user. I think it's mentioned that just having Aethyric Attunement can often be mistaken for a keen sixth sense, so most people with just that never realise it, which would be completely plausible. It doesn't mean he can become a wizard. If you lack even one you can't succeed.
 
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notanautomaton said:
I didn't think this was word games so much as basically explicitly stated. Codrin is seeing magical phenomenon, which according to Realms of Sorcery is one of the three possible signs that someone has magical potential. The other two being feeling magic (becoming emotional or sweating when around Aqshy, for instance), and being able to manipulate magic (either by blatantly performing magic or just being lucky). Notably, few potential mages have all three, with the ones that do having the highest potential. I thought that's what you were going for when canonizing it.
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Ehh, I just thought it was a survival mechanism from living in Slyvania. A person doesn't particularly want to walk into a pocket of Dhar, and so they develop a feeling for noticing the strange... disturbances in the natural world that don't seem to have a cause.
 
Alratan said:
I thought it was more that he was feeling magic, having Aethyric attunement. Note though that you need all three magical senses to become a trained magic user. I think it's mentioned that just having Aethyric Attunement can often be mistaken for a keen sixth sense, so most people with just that never realise it, which would be completely plausible. It doesn't mean he can become a wizard. If you lack even one you can't succeed.
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Looking at it again it seems like he could have all three.
OneirosTheWriter said:
With the air comes something else, filling his lungs with the divine. Essences dance in his breath. The hearth is there, the good soil and rock, the smell of a blacksmith's forge, smoke tickling his nose as it rises from the charcoal. Something strange has been stirred up, and so many things flit through his thoughts that he can barely put a name to. He turns back towards the ranks of armed and armoured men and draws the arming sword from his side, holding it aloft.
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Aethric Attunement, feeling magic.
OneirosTheWriter said:
Despite the storm of powder and runic thunder, somehow his men hear him. He looks up and down the line. They all hear his voice. Seven and a half thousand men under arms in a thick belt that stretches off in the distance in either way, yet all watch rapt. In his eyes shines a light, fierce and cold like a gromril rune. The tingle in his throat, up the back of his neck, he has never known the like.
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Channeling, actively using magic.
OneirosTheWriter said:
It crackles and it shimmers with a power that sits in the corner of the eye. Pockets of still air heave as though they wrestle with weighty matters. The wind that comes through the peaks of Karag Nar to scour the valley bears the marks of the otherworldly like the marks a man's teeth makes upon his supper. A trusted man, leaning upon his polearm as they await the storm of steel, feels it too; inquires of Codrin of the peculiar prickles on the back of his neck.
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Witchsight, seeing magic.
 
[X] The death of the Warboss and the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol.
-[X] But tell Belegar about the weakening of Mork in private.

Probably won't get enough votes for this, but changing to it anyway. It seems like a good idea.
 
[X] The death of the Warboss, the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol, and the weakening of Mork.
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility.
 
Alratan said:
another hidden memory packer
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The Skaven one was triggered by a very specific word - Skaven - and didn't work when we heard their Khazalid name, or description, or implications about their existence, as far as I remember.

They might be all keyed to very specific triggers which we have not hit.
 
Alratan said:
That's one for the eyes of the Grey College alone. I'm vaguely surprised knowledge of them hasn't triggered another hidden memory packer, although it might if Mathilde stops to think about them.
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It's also entirely possible that the Skaven one was the only hidden memory packet, and it was just given a high number to indulge the paranoia fetish of the Grey College.
 
SCO said:
Can any of you folks voting for this tell me right in my metaphorical face that if in the next, oh, 4th strategic turn you getting a small inquisition and/or gray brainwashing that coincidentally finds the fucking Liber Mortis because of this bullshit (from several bad rolls), that you wouldn't blow your top and cry about <unfairness>?
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Oh, I would definitely cry about that, but that's for a completely different reason that Boney set out early on, in the Collection of Important Information:

BoneyM said:
As long as you abide by the Articles of Imperial Magic, without solid evidence of your wrongdoing they [Witch Hunters] cannot touch you without getting in a world of shit. 'All eight Colleges threatening to declare war on Stirland' levels of shit. 'The Emperor himself asking what the fuck is going on over there' levels of shit. If there is one thing that the Colleges will move heaven and earth to prevent, it's the precedent that members of the College in good standing can be victimized by Witch Hunters. Besides that, Magisters legally have all the rights and protections of nobility, and as a Journeywoman you are under the protection of your Master - besides which, you actually are a noble.

I cannot emphasize it enough: THIS IS NOT 40K. It takes more than someone pointing and shouting 'heresy' to be murdered by the Witch Hunters.

Here is the legal status between the Witch Hunters (aka the Templars of Sigmar) and members of the Colleges of Magic:

14. All Magisters are required to render such aid as is deemed necessary to the Holy Orders of the Templars of Sigmar, should said Templars provide satisfactory proof that the servant of malignancy they face is beyond their capacity to capture or destroy without magical means.

You aren't their prey. You're their backup.
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And to focus on the part about a small inquisition that finds the Liber Mortis: That's already happened. You're describing Mathilde. :D
 
notanautomaton said:
It's also entirely possible that the Skaven one was the only hidden memory packet, and it was just given a high number to indulge the paranoia fetish of the Grey College.
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Oh, I think the number's very likely rubbish, but I can see multiple less important things that might be implanted under seal, like recognition code words for the Grey Colleges' agents.

Kornet said:
Imagine all the pranks the apprentices get up to.
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Fortunately they're only taught Petty and Lesser Magics as apprentices, not true Shadow Magics.
 
[X] The death of the Warboss, the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol, and the weakening of Mork.
[X] The death of the Warboss, the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol, and the weakening of Mork and strengthening of Ranald.
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility.
 
[X] The death of the Warboss, the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility.

After finaly going trough the whole disscussion, and god how much this thread flies, It seens the major reason to tell people about Mork is that someone could actualy do something about it, but considering the only instance I can remenber of someone directly harming gods is bloody Nagash, and how little idea anyone outside of Nehekhara of that kind of divine lore this seens solidly in matter beyond mortal keen territory that no one would know what to do about. So without much positive potential results and many negative ones from all the attention we would be smart in keeping our mouth shut.
 
Alratan said:
Witchsight is personal, and interpreting the harbingers left behind by what happened would be far beyond a Journeyman. Probably far beyond any human wizard. This is almost unprecedented, so the random visions left behind would also be.

It would also be a massive insult to ask Journeyman to investigate and reveal the secrets of a Guild Masters' craft. That would be a killing level Grudge offence for a dwarf. It's simply pretty much unthinkable to that they'd do this.
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If you want to convince me then actually cite something about their abilities. I'd be fine agreeing with you then.

They would probably ask 'what' happened instead of the how. I can't see them asking specifics about how we weakens a god.
 
Oh yeah, another reason Thorek Ironbrow is likely to come:

At the core of it all are Clan Angrund itself: barely a thousand strong, but each armed with runic weapons and clad in rune-struck armour thanks to the contributions of the vaults of Karaz-a-Karak and the Master Runelord of Karak Azul.
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Back on page 530 when we just joined the expedition. This is his personal investment paying off big time.
 
Instead of directly mentioning Chaos Dwarfs, could Mathilde instead try to... hint and imply at it? I'd had this idea, of Mathilde going: "I saw a vision of their creation. They were made in a fallen Karak called Zharr-Naggrund."

(Or perhaps just: "They were made in a fallen Karak named Zharr-Naggrund." Not mentioning a vision, and just giving the location.) With, well... The implication is there. The Dwarfs would know what that name means. But it wouldn't outright name Chaos Dwarfs. By vaguely saying "a fallen Karak named etc" it's got a fig leaf on it.

In fact, especially if she can then immediately distract from that tidbit by revealing the "and failed to see the deeper plot that acted through them" + "An attempt to tear asunder the strongest deities to ever work in unison." bits.


Mind, this was just some vague and very very tentative brainstorming and musing on my part. I did not even come to a decision on whether to tell the Dwarfs about their creation. I just had this sudden idea come and wondered what it sounded like?
 
[X] The death of the Warboss and the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol.
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
[X] The job is done. Ale and riches for everybody.
 
Garlak said:
Instead of directly mentioning Chaos Dwarfs, could Mathilde instead try to... hint and imply at it? I'd had this idea, of Mathilde going: "I saw a vision of their creation. They were made in a fallen Karak called Zharr-Naggrund."

(Or perhaps just: "They were made in a fallen Karak named Zharr-Naggrund." Not mentioning a vision, and just giving the location.) With, well... The implication is there. The Dwarfs would know what that name means. But it wouldn't outright name Chaos Dwarfs. By vaguely saying "a fallen Karak named etc" it's got a fig leaf on it.

In fact, especially if she can then immediately distract from that tidbit by revealing the "and failed to see the deeper plot that acted through them" + "An attempt to tear asunder the strongest deities to ever work in unison." bits.


Mind, this was just some vague and very very tentative brainstorming and musing on my part. I did not even come to a decision on whether to tell the Dwarfs about their creation. I just had this sudden idea come and wondered what it sounded like?
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It sounds like a bad idea.

And in general addressing the thread and the topic of "We should tell them we know!". Why is it helpful for Mathilde to tell the Dawi their most hated enemies made another set of their most hated enemies? Why and how does it help the Dawi to tell them Mathilde knows about the Chaos Dwarves and them making the Black Orcs?

I've yet to see a good explanation as to why its helpful to the Dwarfs.
 
[X] The death of the Warboss, the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility
 
[X] The death of the Warboss and the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol.
-[X] But tell Belegar about the weakening of Mork in private.
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility.
 
BlackWink said:
f you want to convince me then actually cite something about their abilities. I'd be fine agreeing with you then.

They would probably ask 'what' happened instead of the how. I can't see them asking specifics about how we weakens a god.
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None of the Journeymanlings have spells that show the past apart from one that shows how metal items are made. They'd have to use witch sight to examine the harbingers left behind. In Tome of Corruption this is described as:

Having the ability to sense magic enables Magisters and their ilk to better control the energies they wield. Aside from its utility, witchsight also reveals an abundance of odd manifestations, eerie phenomena, and sometimes glimpses of the future and the past. Most Magisters learn to cope with the sometimes unsettling visions they experience, reminding themselves that their art is one of mysteries that are impossible to unravel. But some phantasms are too frightening, too maddening to ignore. These are the vestiges, the essence of Chaos formed into something that resembles flesh, but is intangible, insubstantial, and can affect the world in no significant way—or so the Magisters say. The things of the Aethyr, for lack of a better term, are harbingers, apparitions foretelling some significant event. They may take the form of a nest of wriggling maggots, the fiery forms of long-dead witches, or even​
a pack of ghostly hounds that breathe fire and shower sparks wherever they step. Despite their macabre and disgusting appearance, they seem to have no power over those who see them. So, what then, are these things that only those with witchsight can see? There are many theories, ranging from Daemons struggling to breach the barrier between the world of men and the Realm of Chaos to hallucinations brought on as a result of dabbling in the forbidden. What is known for certain is the apparitions always appear in the aftermath of some significant magical event, as if they were drawn to the instance, somehow compelled to witness the caster in his act of magic use. More importantly, the same harbingers tend to appear time and again when certain conditions are met. For instance, the Handmaidens (see WFRP page 211) always manifest themselves after excessive use of Gold or Celestial Magic. The Rotwyrms seem drawn to Jade and Amethyst Magic, and so on. Since these apparitions appear again and again, there must be some reason for their appearance, and they must fulfil some purpose​

This is pretty much the only way they'd know something happened, and it's incredibly imprecise.
 
[X] Do a Whiskey Report: reveal the Warboss and the Idol to the Council, and have Belegar wrangle Kragg into a private room and reveal Mork and Ranald.

People are absolutely right that the dwarf fact-checking would not let this slip if we ever called anything from it, and I've grown convinced it's better to keep it to the people who need to know, and won't needlessly gossip. "A wizard did it" for something this awesomely big doesn't hold up to dwarf meticulousness.

The dwarves don't know Ranald, but they do know Mathilde. She is likely the most respected human alive right now, in dwarf eyes. If she says this so-called Ranald is ok, I'm confident they'd take her at her word.

This avoids any future trouble with the Empire, and reaps the most favor, while getting the information to the people who need to know. Just the morale boost alone should be staggering.

[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
 
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BungieONI said:
And in general addressing the thread and the topic of "We should tell them we know!". Why is it helpful for Mathilde to tell the Dawi their most hated enemies made another set of their most hated enemies? Why and how does it help the Dawi to tell them Mathilde knows about the Chaos Dwarves and them making the Black Orcs?
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Yeah, probably best not to add to the weight of Grudges, really.

That was one of the reasons the idea never left the drawing board except as a curiosity. Well, that, and... the general sense of "Okay, so... How does this help, uh, anything?" "... I dunno."


At least them learning how badly the Orcs just got screwed over, would make them happy. They'd be hearing about how a hated enemy of theirs got even more screwed over!

Telling them about some new event that they'd probably have to add to the Book of Grudges for... nah.
 
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