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Mathilde is guilty by inaction, aand guilty of not performing her duties to protect the empire and it's people.

To be fair while there might be one official in the empire who would consider mercenaries and adventurers people who deserve protection of the state there definitely are not two of them, if you know what I mean.

This would not even merit a slap on the wrist as far as the Grey College is concerned, more a bored shrug.
 
I'm a bit confused as to why people are blaming Codrins archers?

They got fucked on dice, Ranald was probably having performance issues after nudging BoneyM's d6 through the 4th wall.

Hardly something you can blame them for?
 
I'm a bit confused as to why people are blaming Codrins archers?

They got fucked on dice, Ranald was probably having performance issues after nudging BoneyM's d6 through the 4th wall.

Hardly something you can blame them for?
Dice roles are meant to be reflective of something that occurred. If a group is rolling really well, there is an in-story reason for that. If they're rolling really badly, the same.
 
I'm a bit confused as to why people are blaming Codrins archers?

They got fucked on dice, Ranald was probably having performance issues after nudging BoneyM's d6 through the 4th wall.

Hardly something you can blame them for?

The dice are not a thing IC, low rolls are sometimes fluffed as just bad luck, but just as often as a failing of whoever rolled poorly.
 
Yes of course, but not every bad roll ooc = diabolical tzeench cult making redshirt archers miss their shot.
couldve been all that magical boom that everyone's favorite runelord was slinging, got em spooked.
While keeping an eye out makes sense, no need for a witch hunt.
 
There is a huge difference between leading men in battle and them dying,

and deliberately finding ways to get them killed either by encouraging suicidal reckless behavior, conspiring a way to increase casualties.

Then of course, wanting some treasure or money is not evil, if people did die due to being indirectly murdered due to a conspiracy, Mathilde is guilty by inaction, aand guilty of not performing her duties to protect the empire and it's people.
What is ethical in war is completely different from what is ethical anywhere else. I once was able to watch an ethics panel discussing the ethics of war with officers of the Military, trained in the ethics of war and what is and is not appropriate. The discussion was startling.

When an officer was asked what he would do when his unit was asked to charge an encamped enemy and a member of his unit disobeyed and began creating dissension within the ranks, the officer had an answer. The man would have one chance to change his attitude, and if that did not work it would be an immediate execution on the battlefield.

The answer was sudden and brutal and surprised a great number of the non-military ethics panelists. The officer explained that discipline was paramount, and orders need to be followed when given. Dissension in the ranks is not allowed, and when you are on the battlefield there is no time or place for less extreme measures.

Codrin is in a similar position. He is in charge of a large section of the adventures and vagabonds who need to follow their orders or risk the entire expedition. However, in the middle of nowhere it is next to impossible to get rid of the troublemakers in a less extreme method without causing morale problems in the ranks. Nobody wants to throw their friends in the brig and guard them. They're also not going to simply leave when requested, or even when ordered. Codrin did what he thought was needed to get rid of those that would spread dissension and were troublemakers.

Were his actions morally reprehensible? We don't know exactly what he did, but it is likely they were. Even for wartime morales. But whatever the morality of his methods, the mercenaries held. They held the line and pushed back the Greenskin tide, saving their own lives and the lives of countless archers and cannon crews. And at the end of the day, that is what they needed to do.

Warhammer is filled with bad people doing bad things for good reasons. Compared to witch hunter purges of innocent villagers to cut a cult out by the roots, military generals ransacking entire towns to feed their armies to beat back the hordes of enemies, and even the Grey Order's torturers pulling threads of information from reluctant lips, Codrin's actions are relatively tame.

We don't have to like it, and we probably shouldn't like it, but the Warhammer world is a brutal world that does not allow for half-hearted measures in the middle of Greenskin territory.
 
There is a huge difference between leading men in battle and them dying,

and deliberately finding ways to get them killed either by encouraging suicidal reckless behavior, conspiring a way to increase casualties.

Then of course, wanting some treasure or money is not evil, if people did die due to being indirectly murdered due to a conspiracy, Mathilde is guilty by inaction, aand guilty of not performing her duties to protect the empire and it's people.

That is true, deliberately placing the mercenary forces in places where they will take the most losses is quite different from leading from the front.

However, Codrin has no legal, moral, or personal obligation to ensure these people survive. He was elected to lead them because he has worked with Morrites, is a good shot with a bow, and was of a high position within the "Militia" (undefined, likely local). These mercenaries are aligned underlings.

Furthermore, those mercenaries will get paid once the campaign (or this relevant portion) is finished. Taking gold (Which likely belongs rightfully to the dwarves) is pillaging. Pillaging would likely be defined as a crime, the severity of which could include public-execution (unsure of specific laws regarding severity in fiction setting). Pillaging from dwarfs during their own campaign would lead to strictly worse relations between Codrin's allies and the dwarfs.

As for Mathilde being required to defend Empire citizens... did you know most people don't consider Sylvania (which many of these mercenaries come from) part of the Empire. So actually, in Mathilde's eyes these people might as well be considered foreign mercenaries.
 
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Maybe it means that Ulric is with them, and Mathilde should start paying her dues to Ulric the head of the human Pantheon during this campaign, on behalf of her god, Ragnald? Remember, her anti-Sigmarite trait means that politically speaking, the Ulricans are her potential allies.

I was flicking through Tome of Salvation to see what supernatural results could potentially be associated with the White Wolf's critical success, and was taken aback by how good their Divine Marks are compared to Arcane ones:

Berserker: involuntary loss of control in combat, which is bad.
Claws: get a natural weapon, can't used ranged weapons very well, which overall is good for an Ulrician
Wolf's Eyes: eyes turn blue and you get night vision but lose colour vision, which is bad for quality of life but good for combat
Predator: get a predatory aura, penalty to charming people but bonus to intimate them
Ulric's Mein: becoming more like images of Ulric, stronger and up to 5 inches taller
Wolf Friend: get a wolf companion. Unusual because you can get this multiple times
Pack Leader: bonus when commanding
One with the Wild: bonus to surviving away from civilisation
Ulric's Servant: immune to cold not caused by Ulric's wrath
Marked by Ulric: better at using the Lore of Ulric and liked more by his worshippers

There's only one bad one (although it is bad), and Ulric's Mein could be very dramatic if you're already tall and grew another five inches.
 
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I was flicking through Tome of Salvation to see what supernatural results could potentially be associated with the White Wolf's critical success, and was taken aback by how good their Divine Marks are compared to Arcane ones:

It bears keeping in mind that Ulric actually likes the people he marks (though his perspective is skewed by his nature), whereas the Winds neither like nor dislike anyone so the effects are just a roll of the dice.
 
Isn't Ulric's "thing", that he makes his blessed basically werewolves?

So actually, most of those divine marks just sound like they would (in high enough concentration) just make said person fit in more with the blessed.
 
[X] The death of the Warboss, the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol, and the weakening of Mork.
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility.
 
@Thor's Twin I'm pretty sure the Grey Order does not torture anyone, not out of any moral consideration, but because they read minds and alter memories.
While the Grey Order can alter memories, I'm not seeing any spell on the list that can read minds. And regardless of whether the Grey Order can read minds, we have tortured people.

Later, much later, as you and Van Hal wash blood from your hands, he starts to tell you a story - a story every Stirlander knows, but not near as detailed as this. A story of a half-insane Count, seething with petty hatred, who sought any marriage for his daughter to keep his brother from inheriting. And when a man-shaped creature from blighted Nehekhara arrived at the Count's deathbed, he paid more attention to the nobility of the being's blood than the dark curse it bore.

"There are a hundred types of rot that can eat at a man's soul," Van Hal says absently, lost in thought. "But one of the most insidious is the idea that the titles of your ancestors matter more than their deeds."

In the end, you hear the name wheezed from the former count's lips that you knew you would hear.

Von Carstein.

[INTERROGATION TRAINING: Roll, Intrigue, 70+12=82. Like a duck to horrible water.]
The Grey Order likely has torturers of their own, and even if they don't, we are. And we are a member of the Grey Order. We might do a whole lot of other things than torturing people, but if push comes to shove? We are trained to do it and are fully capable of it.
 
Isn't Ulric's "thing", that he makes his blessed basically werewolves?

So actually, most of those divine marks just sound like they would (in high enough concentration) just make said person fit in more with the blessed.

Not quite. Actual Ulrican werewolfs, called "Children of Ulric" are only whispered about as a superstition in canon. If they were confirmed then the Cult of Ulric would schism and the other cults would use it to attack the Ulricans as chaos worshippers since chaos werewolfs, called Skinwolves in later editions, and werebears, never got a copyrightable name, are a known thing.

All that being said the 2E rpg had "Children of Ulric" being real but hidden as an optional setting detail.
 
While the Grey Order can alter memories, I'm not seeing any spell on the list that can read minds. And regardless of whether the Grey Order can read minds, we have tortured people.

I doubt you can read minds with Ulgu. It's the Wind of concealment. I'd say that Hysh, the Wind of revelation is where you want to go to in order to understand what is usually hidden.
 
Still catching up on the actual thread but I would say that Mork getting weaker isn't actually relevant to his overall strength given that he hasn't gotten weaker enough to matter. I would also say that we shouldn't be open about Ranald's growth given that he isn't the most popular god around.

The Heresy in itself should give the reasons for their anger and adding you weakened a god might seem impressive but given that said god is still alive I would say that if they believed us at all the fact that the gods are willing to directly intervene and have a personal grudge against the expedition would if anything damage moral.

We need to do something about the Citadel because it's an enemy strong point in a threatening place that would recover during the pause.

[X] The death of the Warboss and the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol.
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
[X] The Citadel should be destroyed before we can consider our position secure.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility.
 
I'll just remind everyone how seriously dwarves take favours.

Various dwarves are plucked from the gathered Throng, both of adventurers from Zhufbar and from the assembled dwarves from Karak Kadrin, and the events of the Sieges of the Drakenhofs nearly two years ago now are recounted in exhausting detail.

For something as massive as weakening Mork it will be under a ton of scrutiny. Remember, even all the energy that Mork transferred to us wasn't the main component. Ranald used the connection to heist a crap ton more out of him. I don't think the Dwarves are so incompetent with magic that they will just blithely nod their heads when we feed them a story with some glaring issues.

Patriarch Algrad said:
We are the Grey Order. Our work is rarely seen and even rarer appreciated. Temper your expectations accordingly. A job performed well needs to be its own reward, for we so rarely see any other.
 
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The Heresy in itself should give the reasons for their anger and adding you weakened a god might seem impressive but given that said god is still alive I would say that if they believed us at all the fact that the gods are willing to directly intervene and have a personal grudge against the expedition would if anything damage moral.
We aren't going to be shouting this to every soldier here; we're telling the other leaders. If you think that there's a chance we've personally ticked off Mork enough for him to hold a grudge against this expedition, then that's something they need to know.
 
That whole temper your expectations appropriately thing works for trying to get rewards out of people, but its an entirely separate issue to letting people know that something big happened. Like, we've got to tell someone, and King Belegar and Kragg the Grim seem like great choices. Though, some of their priests might be better.
 
I'll just remind everyone how seriously dwarves take favours.



For something as massive as weakening Mork it will be under a ton of scrutiny. Remember, even all the energy that Mork transferred to us wasn't the main component. Ranald used the connection to heist a crap ton more out of him. I don't think the Dwarves are so incompetent with magic that they will just blithely nod their heads when we feed them a story with some glaring issues.

Dwarfs are not at all competent with magic as Mathilde experiences it, they can't see the winds and do not quantify it as you mentioned above. They are not going to point and say 'Aha but I felt a lot of magic being drained.. Where did it go?'
 
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