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It gets everyone's attention, that's the idea.
Which includes Russians too, sadly. Meaning we need to prepare for spetznaz spooks, intel spooks and their advisors making Vickies less incompetent in warfare.
Thing is, Vickies losing 12 divisions would lead to all those anyway.
Yeah, but it also gets us attention from everyone else, especially those who hate the Russians, which is pretty much everyone else. I imagine that it'd certainly lead to an upswing in support from overseas factions, although it's really a matter if Russia is willing to start investing in Victoria to keep it afloat, because you can beat other nations would be interested in tying up Russian resources in foreign, oversea conflicts.
I think some people are getting a little bit tunnel-visioned right now. Okay, we probably can inflict a massive blow on the Victorians here. The question is whether we should. Remember the strategy, Defense-In-Depth. We want to reel them out and wear them down before giving the bastards the boot. Right now, they're already a good part of the way there, but this is only our first defensive position, there's no need to go for the kill-blow now. Let's take the opportunity to seize the badly needed military supplies so our Navy has a safe but productive task, blow the bridge immediately, draw out the Victorian OWE unit so we can smash it with ours, and then kill as much scum as we can before falling back to the next point. The Victorians are down but not out, fanatics but not fools - let's not put everything into a killing blow when it's not all the way set up and not immediately needed.
TLDR; I know there's blood in the water but keep cool and stick to the plan - we don't need to finish this just yet.
Got confirmation that the Victorian convoy will probably turn back. Eventually. Might be some purging (or commanders delaying the information in fear of the purging) first, but they'll probably get word to the convoy to head back home. Though just mobilizing it will still have ruined Buffalo economically.
You know, considering Victorian attitudes towards everyone outside of their territory as 'Orcs', this raises a hilarious mental image if this convoy gets smashed and raided by outside factions due to Victoria's military being tied up elsewhere and unable to respond. Mostly it just makes me think of this though:
I think the attitude is that freeing up one and a half or so divisions worth of troops to occupy various southern defense lines is a big enough deal to offset the Navy going off to do something else for a few days. The gunboats' bombardment power is roughly equivalent to the artillery batteries of a single division, if I remember rightly how many land-based artillery tubes our divisions have. That's a powerful asset, but it's still only part of a division's assets.
Not quite.
The 11 gunboats of the navy max out at 22 105mm howitzers.
A WW2 US infantry division would have around 54x 105mm guns and 12x 155mm guns, organized into 3 light artillery battalions, equipped with 12x 105mms each, one medium artillery battalion armed with 12x 155mm, and the other 18x 105mm distributed to the infantry regiments.
A modern US light infantry division circa 1998 would have 3x field artillery battalions with 18x 105mm towed guns each, and an extra 6x 155mm towed guns organized into two batteries for general support.
As you can see, divisional artillery assets are pretty significant, assuming we were able to fill the ToE.
The advantage of the navy is their mobility, because they can move and maintain bombardment on the move.
Plus, they're probably either Quality 2 or 3, given their general experience levels, which would mean greater precision in this case.
I think some people are getting a little bit tunnel-visioned right now. Okay, we probably can inflict a massive blow on the Victorians here. The question is whether we should. Remember the strategy, Defense-In-Depth. We want to reel them out and wear them down before giving the bastards the boot. Right now, they're already a good part of the way there, but this is only our first defensive position, there's no need to go for the kill-blow now. Let's take the opportunity to seize the badly needed military supplies so our Navy has a safe but productive task, blow the bridge immediately, draw out the Victorian OWE unit so we can smash it with ours, and then kill as much scum as we can before falling back to the next point. The Victorians are down but not out, fanatics but not fools - let's not put everything into a killing blow when it's not all the way set up and not immediately needed.
TLDR; I know there's blood in the water but keep cool and stick to the plan - we don't need to finish this just yet.
To play devil's advocate, we should give them the boot. We are outnumbered and outgunned and are funneling the enemy into an excellent killzone, one which acts as a casualty multiplier. Also the addition of artillery that can chew up technicals and mission kill BTRs will free up the BRO to focus solely on the armor division, should it be deployed.
[X] Plan Shoot, Loot, & Scoot
This is without the doubt the most dangerous plan but if we can pull it off we will make the victorians bleed hard for it. This is more or less the final stretch of the race if we can win here then we're golden.
The book largely supports this; while there are a few instances where Lind makes a point of praising extremely minor commanders for saying, "fuck the plan," and having a disproportionate impact, overall it reads like Rumford's beautiful setpiece engagements being executed par excellence.
The majority of his plans, especially the strategic and operational ones, don't even happen. They get nullified by random events before they can even start. It reads as an amateur trying to use hindsight to prove how much of a genius he would have been if he hadn't gotten absurdly lucky.
-[X] The Navy will withdraw from Monroe; you don't think you need them. Instead, they will go to that grounded laker ship and have their marine complements board it, clearing out the Victorian soldiers and making it so civilian vessels from Detroit can begin looting the vessel.
-[X] You will leave the bridge standing until blowing it presents the opportunity to split the Victorian force in half. The Victorians will almost certainly find and defuse the charges; leaving the Navy on call to bombard the bridge is highly recommended if you intend to use this tactic.
-[X] The Navy will divide and conquer. The fleet's marine contingent, escorted by three gunboats, will take the stranded freighter. The other eight ships keep guns and pressure on the advancing Victorians.
The charge will only be used if the Victorians try to force a crossing especially with their armor. The BRO in our plans are being used as reaction force which means that it'll only react to serious breakthrough attempts and Victorian armor.
If the Vics back down this round and try to scout around then the charge won't be used.
Not quite.
The 11 gunboats of the navy max out at 22 105mm howitzers.
A WW2 US infantry division would have around 54x 105mm guns and 12x 155mm guns, organized into 3 light artillery battalions, equipped with 12x 105mms each, one medium artillery battalion armed with 12x 155mm, and the other 18x 105mm distributed to the infantry regiments.
A modern US light infantry division circa 1998 would have 3x field artillery battalions with 18x 105mm towed guns each, and an extra 6x 155mm towed guns organized into two batteries for general support.
As you can see, divisional artillery assets are pretty significant, assuming we were able to fill the ToE.
The advantage of the navy is their mobility, because they can move and maintain bombardment on the move.
Plus, they're probably either Quality 2 or 3, given their general experience levels, which would mean greater precision in this case.
...Please explain why you think that the artillery allotment of a 20th century American infantry division is a reliable guideline to how much artillery one of our divisions has.
Equipment for making artillery tubes that won't blow up or be intolerably inaccurate is likely rare in Chicagolander territory. Equipment for making heavy ammunition for artillery, in the tons-and-tons quantity that artillery batteries go through in intense operations, likewise. There is no guarantee that we have as many heavy guns in one of our divisions as the old US Army would, even in one of their "light" infantry divisions. We might, but then, we might not.
In fairness, I can't find the source I thought I had for the number of guns our divisions have; it MIGHT be significantly more than "sixteen or so," which is the number of tubes our gunboats seem to actually mount.
To play devil's advocate, we should give them the boot. We are outnumbered and outgunned and are funneling the enemy into an excellent killzone, one which acts as a casualty multiplier. Also the addition of artillery that can chew up technicals and mission kill BTRs will free up the BRO to focus solely on the armor division, should it be deployed.
I mean, we should definitely inflict as much harm on the Victorians as is feasible. You'll get no argument from me there.
But while this is a good killzone to draw the Victorians into, maybe even our best one, it isn't our only one. It's quite possible for a killzone to outlive its usefulness, and that's okay if you've got another one. Forcing the enemy to extend his forces, deploy his best assets and expose them to attrition, stretch out his supply lines, and reveal his habits and methods are all valuable in their own right.
With Old World Equipment as our ace in the hole, I'm reasonably confident we can break or at least fend off any Victorian attack long enough for the bulk of our forces to fall back to the Huron Line, after inflicting heavy losses on the Victorians- and that is good enough. We don't need to hold them here, and we won't have failed if we have to fall back.
Therefore, it isn't entirely critical for us to put absolutely everything we've got on the line at the Raisin River. If there's a secondary objective important enough to justify diverting a small portion of our forces, we can afford to at least consider taking that secondary objective.
The charge will only be used if the Victorians try to force a crossing especially with their armor. The BRO in our plans are being used as reaction force which means that it'll only react to serious breakthrough attempts and Victorian armor.
If the Vics back down this round and try to scout around then the charge won't be used.
Because if the Victorians pull back and try to find another way across, resulting in a turn worth of "nothing important happens," we don't end up expending the Old World Equipment.
Plus, based on the precedent of the Essex County fighting, Victorian armies tend to be aggressive until you pound the snot out of them a couple of times. This army is un-pounded, so it would be very surprising if they don't at least try to launch an attack now that they've finally come to grips with the enemy. We can look for them to get cagier after we've beaten them bloody a couple of times for making the mistake of writing checks that they don't have enough gun to cash.
I mean, we should definitely inflict as much harm on the Victorians as is feasible. You'll get no argument from me there.
But while this is a good killzone to draw the Victorians into, maybe even our best one, it isn't our only one. It's quite possible for a killzone to outlive its usefulness, and that's okay if you've got another one. Forcing the enemy to extend his forces, deploy his best assets and expose them to attrition, stretch out his supply lines, and reveal his habits and methods are all valuable in their own right.
With Old World Equipment as our ace in the hole, I'm reasonably confident we can break or at least fend off any Victorian attack long enough for the bulk of our forces to fall back to the Huron Line, after inflicting heavy losses on the Victorians- and that is good enough. We don't need to hold them here, and we won't have failed if we have to fall back.
Therefore, it isn't entirely critical for us to put absolutely everything we've got on the line at the Raisin River. If there's a secondary objective important enough to justify diverting a small portion of our forces, we can afford to at least consider taking that secondary objective.
As great as OWE is, it might not be enough to cover the withdrawal. This is the greatest concentration of the foe, containing their elites equipped with proper heavy assets, and there is no better place to use the big guns than here. Even if there is an undeniably significant boon to be had with the laker, it requires the use of assets that are desperately needed, if not to shatter the Vics on the first line, then to preserve our forces and cripple their momentum.
I would be totally happy with Yummy Loot or Monroe Tanks, Monroe Problems winning, but I have some serious concerns about Shoot, Loot, & Scoot.
What it boils down to is, if we don't blow the bridge we want ALL of our navy there to take advantage. If we're sending the navy out to loot the ship, then it makes perfect sense to blow the bridge ASAP seeing as it won't be there to herd the Vicks to the lakeside anymore. Trying to have it both ways seems like an unnecessary gamble, especially considering we have two defensive lines after this.
My concern about Shoot/Loot/Scoot is splitting our fleet. I am not convinced we will be able to achieve either objective without concentration of forces. It's only 11 puny ships, after all.
I recommend against using OWE at this time. If things do become critical, we break it out, but defending against an attempted river crossing is one of the easier tactical positions to be in, even if outnumbered, so we should save our 4 remaining shots.
-[ ] Ready the Old World Equipment for deployment, but hold it in reserve for the moment you cut the bridge. Otherwise, only use it if the enemy gains a significant lodgment, with armored support, on the north side of the Raisin, somewhere west of Monroe.
Gonna have to nix this one. You're talking about swapping out the equipment being used by over ten thousand soldiers; you can't do it on demand like that. It's a fairly intensive operation, which is why you're making the decision now, as the Big Red One rotates through its supply dumps in Detroit.
Per here, this is swapping out ten thousand soldiers, and happens in our supply dump in Detroit. The question at the current moment is if we even take it down with us, if we don't, we won't have our Abrams and other material down, and will not be able to decide to break it out until at least reforming at the second line at the earliest.
If you want an option that avoids using the OWE until things get desperate, you want the "reserve force" and "OWE" combination. Poptart has stated that if they don't commit enough to achieve a breakout, they won't be in use. Putting 1st division on the front line with OWE is the guaranteed usage, reserve is only once things get desperate.
The only variation I could think of is we could probably have a write in option that says "use 1st division only if the breakout is tanks, if it's just infantry, fall back"
@PoptartProdigy is this all correct? I don't want to be misrepresenting anything.
Similarly, if we split our naval assets, we don't get naval bombardment for the initial clash. Trying to "best of both options" this just results in half-assing two things.
As great as OWE is, it might not be enough to cover the withdrawal. This is the greatest concentration of the foe, containing their elites equipped with proper heavy assets, and there is no better place to use the big guns than here. Even if there is an undeniably significant boon to be had with the laker, it requires the use of assets that are desperately needed, if not to shatter the Vics on the first line, then to preserve our forces and cripple their momentum.
I don't think it very realistic that we can force the Victorians to break their forces by using naval gunfire, unless we adopt a strategy that would have worked without naval gunfire.
Artillery isn't actually that great against armored vehicles because they're mobile and don't have to stay still when under bombardment, while requiring direct hits to disable. It's large infantry forces or units that have to pass through a known prepared area that are relatively easy targets.
My concern about Shoot/Loot/Scoot is splitting our fleet. I am not convinced we will be able to achieve either objective without concentration of forces. It's only 11 puny ships, after all.
I don't think it very realistic that we can force the Victorians to break their forces by using naval gunfire, unless we adopt a strategy that would have worked without naval gunfire.
Artillery isn't actually that great against armored vehicles because they're mobile and don't have to stay still when under bombardment, while requiring direct hits to disable. It's large infantry forces or units that have to pass through a known prepared area that are relatively easy targets.
Artillery bombardment doesn't need to kill all the tanks to stop an attack, for 2 reasons:
1) Tanks without infantry screen tend to die more often, particularly if they're fighting in areas with reduced visibility like city ruins.
2) You don't need to destroy a tank; As long as you're throwing enough shells at the area, tanks in that area would be mission-killed even if there was 0 direct hits - damaged optics, thrown tracks and other problems tend to arise in such conditions.
