Victoria Falls: A Post-Collapse American Nation Quest [Down With Victoria!]

[4WheelSword]

thread policy Discussion of politics that does not directly relate to the Quest or to Quest votes are banned from hereon out. This thread policy will be enforced by the Moderation team. Do not ignore it.

 

[veekie]

When the Victorians come, it is slow and steady, flying perfectly level and straight, and in radar signatures that appear to denote absolutely massive airplanes. Twelve of them.

General Burns's jaw drops slightly. "I don't believe it."

"Victorian doctrine calls for this for AA evasion," says Franks, eyes fixed on the radar display. "Four or more planes fly in diamond or box formation, close enough that they return as one radar signature. The idea is that radar-guided missiles seek the center of the formation and miss the planes."

Click to shrink...

"Bigger targets, impossible to hit!"

 

[buli-buli]

[X] Plan "Show the world that Americans can defeat Victoria"

 

[Lightwhispers]

@PoptartProdigy
So, just checking, a proposal-
[] Wait to blow the bridge until Victorians are in sight of it.

Would that be significantly different from the "blow the bridge once Victorians set foot on it" to improve surety that they won't have a chance to disarm the charges? Because I kinda want to keep it there until the last minute we're absolutely certain we can blow it, just to mess with their planning. Coordinated action being one of their weak points, after all, from an excess of initiative.

Also, ouch for General Franks. Why is it so dusty in here?

 

[PoptartProdigy]

@PoptartProdigy
So, just checking, a proposal-
[] Wait to blow the bridge until Victorians are in sight of it.

Would that be significantly different from the "blow the bridge once Victorians set foot on it" to improve surety that they won't have a chance to disarm the charges? Because I kinda want to keep it there until the last minute we're absolutely certain we can blow it, just to mess with their planning. Coordinated action being one of their weak points, after all, from an excess of initiative.

Also, ouch for General Franks. Why is it so dusty in here?

Click to shrink...

Yeah, that'll work. Accepted.

 

[clockworkchaos]

Dispatches from Detroit- 6b
Toledo and Detroit

I never intended to become a priest. Probably wouldn't have been bad at it, I think I could do a good sermon. Perhaps that's what these dispatches are, secular sermons. Now I've also found myself giving confession as well.

Since the last dispatch, more people have come to me, to tell me about their own encounters with Victoria. Police who looked the other way in a murder. Council members who didn't fight when they should have. Sailors was unloading at Buffalo, who when he saw his men press ganged, left with half crew, rather than risk them getting them. Talked about how they could be those in the Victoria navy. Those who identified a woman who had come in via boat as a runaway when the Victorian's came looking, lest they be thought of it instead. We all got our sins, big and small.

I don't want to get to down on us. Got the stories of bravery we couldn't tell either. The captains who smuggled people away. The dockworkers sabotaging Victoria repairs. Sometimes both, such as a man who claims to have murdered a Vic, but hid letting others take the punishment. With this new freedom we have, perhaps the greatest freedom is the freedom to admit what we have done, for all our previous submissiveness wouldn't save us.

Wouldn't save us. Good thought, cause I don't think it would. I talked about the occupation not being kind, had we acquiesced to the Victorians. But, more I think about it, that wasn't only it. We've had a few good years in Detroit. Ships have been coming in, more and more, and I see new faces all the time. Yet I've felt a sense of unease, dread and I think I know why. It was too good, and Victoria don't like it that good along lake Erie. Even if we had followed them, they would have purged us. Perhaps more kindly, a few missing politicians here, a few confiscated supplies, but we were looking to have trouble soon. No Victorian would stand for a Detroitian being richer.

But a lot of people coming to me now. Even a man who ran from Toledo. Now I'll be honest, I've had my fair share of feelings about Toledo. We offered to be friendly, they turned our people away. They elected the warlord and destroyed the ways. Years before they were the ones who called in Victoria to force the river. I got a list o' grievances.

But well, I'm a reporter, I need to listen to others. And, having been appointed some sort of guide, I feel obligated to act respectably, to listen. So, I listened to him, how he hated the Victorian's and got out, but still had his grievances with Detroit. He wanted Victoria gone, but was no friend of us. He listed em, such as the winter of 63' where we paid through the nose for the food. He says that money doesn't turn to food by magic, and Toledo tried to buy that food to, but got outbid. Granted, in the end, we both went hungry. On the river, he talked about how we cut off access to the other great lakes for their boats, which I wanted to point out was river tolls, not cut access, and they called in Victoria, but I held myself.

Said he was surprised we were willing to defy em, after the swamp meeting. For those of you who don't know, about 20 years ago back when I was full of Vigor, couple of our representatives met a couple of theirs, looking to…. Partner up might be a generous word, but at least calm things down. Whole thing went belly up, and they started shooting, or, according to the Warlord's propaganda, we did.

Now, granted, several people are probably thinking they have an idea what went on, and it rhymes with euphoria and starts with a V. And maybe that's true, though I talked to some people who were there, and they swear the shots started at the meeting, not outside, so it had to come from someone there. Even if it was an unexpected guest, it met someone was compromised.

Would be nice thought though. To think all our problems are going to be solved if we win this, and even Toledo won't prove to be assholes, they just got Victoria. Who knows, maybe they didn't actually elect the warlord, that was all orcastrated by an outside force, and soon as that's gone they will be happy to meet up with us. I doubt it though, Victoria was happy to help us along, but both of us knew that only one of us would really control this area. Maybe Victoria prevented us from deciding to control it together, that I could more believe, but there is so much bad blood now.

Still, I'm trying to be high minded these days. So, doing it some thinking, I do confess a little sympathy for Toledo these days. Chicago is mighty helpful, but part of me worries that we are just going to become a protectorate of theirs. Trading one master for another, more explicit, one. Presuming the "they are just like Victoria, only pretending to be nice now and will turn if they win (which they won't)" is the Victoria propaganda that I think it is…. Well it would be nice to not have to live in fear, but giving up your identify, your independence, not sure how I feel about it, haven't really considered it before.

 

[clockworkchaos]

Hidden Dispatches from Detroit- 6a
Breakthrough

It's been storming a week, and it's only beginning letting up. Navy has been hanging around, not going out in the storm. That, sadly, is just the facts I know. People have been moved across the river, lest Windsor fall. Windsor, funny thing, it's just what we call the other side of Detroit, used to be another city, another country. If those people who talk about restoring the US manage it, we might find ourselves rather smaller. But people are moving, and I presume that means they worry it's going to fall.

After that, we get to that which comes only through my city hall contacts. Well, them and the helpful little aide from Chicago, who is happy to clarify that if I want to ask him something, he's happy to answer any questions, and gave me an address to find him at. Their strategy, "defense in depth" as it's called, is said to be working. Already, the Victorian's are feeling the pain, and the attacking force is all but spent. One good push and they will crack. Only reason they are hesitating is that they think this is only half of the Victorians, and the half without the CMC or tanks, so they don't want to risk getting caught. Either way, militia is coming out soon.

Hope that's right, that this is all the plan, all going as expected. That the Victorians are just about to break, despite having advanced so far. I mean, what if they have just been fighting, pushing back, and it's all being said to give us hope? That they are bringing out the militia because they are that desperate. Mind worries, and so I look, look for signs, like some soothsayer looking at birds.

The forces retreated in good order and I got enough people who say that I'm sure. So it can't be a complete route, and it's been a week. That makes me want to hope. I know Victorian operations, often interview the refugees of them, and they don't take a week once they get there. They crush in days, and they don't let enemies retreat in good order, they overtake em. Sure, they might stop to destroy towns once they take em, but everyone I knew round that area was evacuated, so there can't be that much to do. Which means the fighting has to be actual fighting, not merely them winning right? So it's going well. But then, they are still pushing back, so maybe it isn't.

There is one last sign, a radio call. I've been trying to listen in to the radio signals. I hate being so blind, hate no knowing what is going on, and for lack of anything else to do, and to keep me from going crazy in the rain, I've been by the radio. Can't understand a word of the codes, though the Victorians sound maybe more panicked, but I could be projecting hope there. Hearing what I want to hear.

But last night, last night there was a long one that came in, clear and without code, well unless it was a specific phrase. It cried out, cursing god and asking why he had left them to die in a foreign land, away from family and home. It was a raw voice of agony and sorrow and a brokenness I have only before seen on those most lost, usually those who fled from one of Victoria's expeditions. Only this time, it sounded almost Victorian.

Now, granted, it was staticky, and cut-off quickly. Could have been Commonwealth, same conditions for them, if they are losing, they would feel the same. But, well I still think it was Victoria, which might only be wistful thinking. Hard thing thought. I felt sorry for whoever was on the end, and if it was a Victorian. Not easy to think of them as people, the kind that actually feel despair or fear, not sure I like it. At the end, if he is Victorian, he came here, to do to us the despair he currently feels, so my sympathy is limited.

Finally, even if this is all true, there still is that southern force, bigger and worse. So, pour a drink, for all those brought to despair by Victoria. If we are already gone, pour the drink for us as well, and Detroit stands then do not fill the glass all the way, for someone was not crushed under them this time, hopefully a sign of things to come.

 

[clockworkchaos]

In addition to the votes from the previous update, I have one more for you.

Some of the detained foreigners in Detroit have come forward as either journalists or foreign observers from other governments. They are requesting that you allow them access to information on the battle for the purposes of their reports. Please add the following items to any plans currently under consideration:

-[ ] Deny them all. They may remain in lockup and look at the aftermath, just like everybody else.
-[ ] Allow the journalists to observe. You want your side of the story out there, and the press is one way of doing that. You'd still have central security restricting them to good things, after all.
-[ ] Allow the foreign observers to observe. You want to set up lines of communication with the outside world; extending a friendly hand here, and making a positive impression, could yield dividends.
-[ ] Allow them both to observe.

MORATORIUM REMAINS; WILL OPEN TOMORROW. APPROVAL VOTING REMAINS.

And there you go. Half-update for you. Hope you enjoyed.

Click to shrink...

I'm assuming that no matter what option, we will have helpful escorts for all of them, to make sure they are safe on the battlefield and don't get lost.

 

[CatOnTheWeb]

@PoptartProdigy The last two threadmarks seem somehow separate from the rest. I can't go from Battlefield Intelligence to Outmaneuvered, Outplayed, Outdone or vice versa.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

I'm assuming that no matter what option, we will have helpful escorts for all of them, to make sure they are safe on the battlefield and don't get lost.

Click to shrink...

Oh, of course.

@PoptartProdigy The last two threadmarks seem somehow separate from the rest. I can't go from Battlefield Intelligence to Outmaneuvered, Outplayed, Outdone or vice versa.

Click to shrink...

I've noticed. I don't know what's happening, there.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

All right, vote's open!

Dispatches from Detroit- 6b
Toledo and Detroit

I never intended to become a priest. Probably wouldn't have been bad at it, I think I could do a good sermon. Perhaps that's what these dispatches are, secular sermons. Now I've also found myself giving confession as well.

Since the last dispatch, more people have come to me, to tell me about their own encounters with Victoria. Police who looked the other way in a murder. Council members who didn't fight when they should have. Sailors was unloading at Buffalo, who when he saw his men press ganged, left with half crew, rather than risk them getting them. Talked about how they could be those in the Victoria navy. Those who identified a woman who had come in via boat as a runaway when the Victorian's came looking, lest they be thought of it instead. We all got our sins, big and small.

I don't want to get to down on us. Got the stories of bravery we couldn't tell either. The captains who smuggled people away. The dockworkers sabotaging Victoria repairs. Sometimes both, such as a man who claims to have murdered a Vic, but hid letting others take the punishment. With this new freedom we have, perhaps the greatest freedom is the freedom to admit what we have done, for all our previous submissiveness wouldn't save us.

Wouldn't save us. Good thought, cause I don't think it would. I talked about the occupation not being kind, had we acquiesced to the Victorians. But, more I think about it, that wasn't only it. We've had a few good years in Detroit. Ships have been coming in, more and more, and I see new faces all the time. Yet I've felt a sense of unease, dread and I think I know why. It was too good, and Victoria don't like it that good along lake Erie. Even if we had followed them, they would have purged us. Perhaps more kindly, a few missing politicians here, a few confiscated supplies, but we were looking to have trouble soon. No Victorian would stand for a Detroitian being richer.

But a lot of people coming to me now. Even a man who ran from Toledo. Now I'll be honest, I've had my fair share of feelings about Toledo. We offered to be friendly, they turned our people away. They elected the warlord and destroyed the ways. Years before they were the ones who called in Victoria to force the river. I got a list o' grievances.

But well, I'm a reporter, I need to listen to others. And, having been appointed some sort of guide, I feel obligated to act respectably, to listen. So, I listened to him, how he hated the Victorian's and got out, but still had his grievances with Detroit. He wanted Victoria gone, but was no friend of us. He listed em, such as the winter of 63' where we paid through the nose for the food. He says that money doesn't turn to food by magic, and Toledo tried to buy that food to, but got outbid. Granted, in the end, we both went hungry. On the river, he talked about how we cut off access to the other great lakes for their boats, which I wanted to point out was river tolls, not cut access, and they called in Victoria, but I held myself.

Said he was surprised we were willing to defy em, after the swamp meeting. For those of you who don't know, about 20 years ago back when I was full of Vigor, couple of our representatives met a couple of theirs, looking to…. Partner up might be a generous word, but at least calm things down. Whole thing went belly up, and they started shooting, or, according to the Warlord's propaganda, we did.

Now, granted, several people are probably thinking they have an idea what went on, and it rhymes with euphoria and starts with a V. And maybe that's true, though I talked to some people who were there, and they swear the shots started at the meeting, not outside, so it had to come from someone there. Even if it was an unexpected guest, it met someone was compromised.

Would be nice thought though. To think all our problems are going to be solved if we win this, and even Toledo won't prove to be assholes, they just got Victoria. Who knows, maybe they didn't actually elect the warlord, that was all orcastrated by an outside force, and soon as that's gone they will be happy to meet up with us. I doubt it though, Victoria was happy to help us along, but both of us knew that only one of us would really control this area. Maybe Victoria prevented us from deciding to control it together, that I could more believe, but there is so much bad blood now.

Still, I'm trying to be high minded these days. So, doing it some thinking, I do confess a little sympathy for Toledo these days. Chicago is mighty helpful, but part of me worries that we are just going to become a protectorate of theirs. Trading one master for another, more explicit, one. Presuming the "they are just like Victoria, only pretending to be nice now and will turn if they win (which they won't)" is the Victoria propaganda that I think it is…. Well it would be nice to not have to live in fear, but giving up your identify, your independence, not sure how I feel about it, haven't really considered it before.

Click to shrink...

Hidden Dispatches from Detroit- 6a
Breakthrough

It's been storming a week, and it's only beginning letting up. Navy has been hanging around, not going out in the storm. That, sadly, is just the facts I know. People have been moved across the river, lest Windsor fall. Windsor, funny thing, it's just what we call the other side of Detroit, used to be another city, another country. If those people who talk about restoring the US manage it, we might find ourselves rather smaller. But people are moving, and I presume that means they worry it's going to fall.

After that, we get to that which comes only through my city hall contacts. Well, them and the helpful little aide from Chicago, who is happy to clarify that if I want to ask him something, he's happy to answer any questions, and gave me an address to find him at. Their strategy, "defense in depth" as it's called, is said to be working. Already, the Victorian's are feeling the pain, and the attacking force is all but spent. One good push and they will crack. Only reason they are hesitating is that they think this is only half of the Victorians, and the half without the CMC or tanks, so they don't want to risk getting caught. Either way, militia is coming out soon.

Hope that's right, that this is all the plan, all going as expected. That the Victorians are just about to break, despite having advanced so far. I mean, what if they have just been fighting, pushing back, and it's all being said to give us hope? That they are bringing out the militia because they are that desperate. Mind worries, and so I look, look for signs, like some soothsayer looking at birds.

The forces retreated in good order and I got enough people who say that I'm sure. So it can't be a complete route, and it's been a week. That makes me want to hope. I know Victorian operations, often interview the refugees of them, and they don't take a week once they get there. They crush in days, and they don't let enemies retreat in good order, they overtake em. Sure, they might stop to destroy towns once they take em, but everyone I knew round that area was evacuated, so there can't be that much to do. Which means the fighting has to be actual fighting, not merely them winning right? So it's going well. But then, they are still pushing back, so maybe it isn't.

There is one last sign, a radio call. I've been trying to listen in to the radio signals. I hate being so blind, hate no knowing what is going on, and for lack of anything else to do, and to keep me from going crazy in the rain, I've been by the radio. Can't understand a word of the codes, though the Victorians sound maybe more panicked, but I could be projecting hope there. Hearing what I want to hear.

But last night, last night there was a long one that came in, clear and without code, well unless it was a specific phrase. It cried out, cursing god and asking why he had left them to die in a foreign land, away from family and home. It was a raw voice of agony and sorrow and a brokenness I have only before seen on those most lost, usually those who fled from one of Victoria's expeditions. Only this time, it sounded almost Victorian.

Now, granted, it was staticky, and cut-off quickly. Could have been Commonwealth, same conditions for them, if they are losing, they would feel the same. But, well I still think it was Victoria, which might only be wistful thinking. Hard thing thought. I felt sorry for whoever was on the end, and if it was a Victorian. Not easy to think of them as people, the kind that actually feel despair or fear, not sure I like it. At the end, if he is Victorian, he came here, to do to us the despair he currently feels, so my sympathy is limited.

Finally, even if this is all true, there still is that southern force, bigger and worse. So, pour a drink, for all those brought to despair by Victoria. If we are already gone, pour the drink for us as well, and Detroit stands then do not fill the glass all the way, for someone was not crushed under them this time, hopefully a sign of things to come.

Click to shrink...

Do I even need to say that they're canon, by this point?

 

[Chimeraguard]

@PoptartProdigy Assuming we successfully loot the Victorian supply ship (will there be a die roll for that, or are our marines good enough/the Victorian crew poor combatants enough to guarantee it succeeds if we try?), what could we, mechanically, expect to gain? Will it result in us being able to raise a couple new divisions at a lower cost, outfit our existing ones with stuff like better AA, or something else?

Not asking for explicit details like "this is what the supply ship has), but just a general idea of the possible benefits.

 

[Lord Sia]

I think what's meant is "does the CMC know that he's been captured, or not?"

Because their obvious next move if he has, frankly, is to start shooting his family "pour encourager les autres" and deterring any future officers in a bad position from thoughts of surrender.

Our single biggest bargaining chip is to tell General Whatshisnuts "if you cooperate, we'll let Victoria continue to believe that you died fighting."

Click to shrink...

I was being facetious. But yeah, you're probably right.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

Posted about the threadmarks issue to technical support. Hopefully we get an answer soon! I know they're busy at the moment, though, so please have patience.

@PoptartProdigy Assuming we successfully loot the Victorian supply ship (will there be a die roll for that, or are our marines good enough/the Victorian crew poor combatants enough to guarantee it succeeds if we try?), what could we, mechanically, expect to gain? Will it result in us being able to raise a couple new divisions at a lower cost, outfit our existing ones with stuff like better AA, or something else?

Not asking for explicit details like "this is what the supply ship has), but just a general idea of the possible benefits.

Click to shrink...

You'll roll for it. It depends on what the supply ship has, but at minimum you would be able to bolster your current forces' equipment. You would almost certainly be capable of outfitting more divisions with the proceeds from an 80,000 long-ton-capacity cargo ship.

 

[clockworkchaos]

With @Lightwhispers option's availability

[X] Monroe tanks, Monroe problems
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Wait to blow the bridge until Victorians are in sight of it.
-[X] The Navy will remain, and continue to provide artillery cover over Monroe. You could use it to slow down the Vicks.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.

[X] Plan "Show the world that Americans can defeat Victoria"
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Retreat across the river and blow it now. Clever tactics are not worth the risk of the Victorians managing to seize and hold the bridge.
-[X] The Navy will remain, and continue to provide artillery cover over Monroe. You could use it to slow down the Vicks.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.

I'm not particularly committed to any action on the bridge, but I do want us making a good showing at starting to drain them here.Ideally we can remove their fanaticism bonus, and start wearing away at logistics, numbers and tanks. If it goes well, I'll feel comfortable going for loot next turn, but this crossing is an ideal oppertunity to hurt them, I'd like to use it.

 

[Rockeye]

[x] Plan Hold the Course
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Wait to blow the bridge until Victorians are in sight of it.
-[X] The Navy will withdraw from Monroe; you don't think you need them. Instead, they will go to that grounded laker ship and have their marine complements board it, clearing out the Victorian soldiers and making it so civilian vessels from Detroit can begin looting the vessel.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.

[X] Plan Yummy Loot
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Retreat across the river and blow it now. Clever tactics are not worth the risk of the Victorians managing to seize and hold the bridge.
-[X] The Navy will withdraw from Monroe; you don't think you need them. Instead, they will go to that grounded laker ship and have their marine complements board it, clearing out the Victorian soldiers and making it so civilian vessels from Detroit can begin looting the vessel.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.

I really really want to go start salvaging that ship. We have OWE being used on the Raisin Line, I don't think we need the Navy too at this exact moment.

 

[CatOnTheWeb]

[x] Plan Hold the Course

 

[EBR]

[x] Plan Hold the Course
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Wait to blow the bridge until Victorians are in sight of it.
-[X] The Navy will withdraw from Monroe; you don't think you need them. Instead, they will go to that grounded laker ship and have their marine complements board it, clearing out the Victorian soldiers and making it so civilian vessels from Detroit can begin looting the vessel.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.


[X] Plan "Show the world that Americans can defeat Victoria"
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Retreat across the river and blow it now. Clever tactics are not worth the risk of the Victorians managing to seize and hold the bridge.
-[X] The Navy will remain, and continue to provide artillery cover over Monroe. You could use it to slow down the Vicks.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.

 

[Chimeraguard]

Victoria's objective is, "Force the beaches."

Victorian Modifiers:

Numbers: 5 points.
Troop quality: 2 points.
Shore bombardment: 1 point.
Air supremacy: 1 point (they're Victorians, they're not doing much up there at this stage of the attack).
Fanaticism: 1 point.
Inadequate landing craft: -2 points.
Lack of hardened assets: -2 points.

Total Modifier: 6 points.

Your objective, for the moment, is, "Hold the beaches."

Commonwealth Modifiers:

Troop quality: 1 point.
Fortifications: 1 point.
Artillery advantage: 1 point.
Limited AA: 1 point.

Total Modifier: 4 points.

Click to shrink...

This was the fight for the landing at Leamington.

Now, the numbers there were 5 Victorian Divisions vs half of one of ours, while here we have two divisions against their seven (one of which is armored, so might have fewer actual people), so obviously the numbers modifier will be lessened. They don't have Shore bombardment (in fact, we'll have it instead, and it'll probably be 2 points instead of one judging from the previous set of roles and our howitzers vs their fishing trawlers with infantry mortars.) Air Supremacy might be the same, though it might also go away if the recent slew of losses convince the Victorians to pull them back, but I find that unlikely.

On the other hand, the Victorians do have hardened assets, so that debuff is probably turning into a buff. On the other hand, it's also been said that trying to ford the river will have the Victorians eating huge penalties, so a minus similar to Inadequate Landing Craft might stay. Depending on badly their scouts got mauled, they may suffer another malus due to insufficient recon (which will make it harder for them to find alternate crossings.)

On the Commonwealth side, all our advantages should be kept (with Limited AA probably cancelling out Air Supremacy for the Victorians.) Monroe is noted as being very well defended, so that might see another boost to Fortifications. If the navy stays around, we can also add shore bombardment to the roll. Having the Devil Brigade with OWE at all is probably going to be worth another bonus, or at least take an edge off the Victorians as their armored vehicles evaporate under Abrams fire.

[X] Plan "Show the world that Americans can defeat Victoria"
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Retreat across the river and blow it now. Clever tactics are not worth the risk of the Victorians managing to seize and hold the bridge.
-[X] The Navy will remain, and continue to provide artillery cover over Monroe. You could use it to slow down the Vicks.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.

 

[Random Member]

[X] Plan Random
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Retreat across the river and blow it now. Clever tactics are not worth the risk of the Victorians managing to seize and hold the bridge.
-[X] The Navy will withdraw from Monroe; you don't think you need them. Instead, they will go to that grounded laker ship and have their marine complements board it, clearing out the Victorian soldiers and making it so civilian vessels from Detroit can begin looting the vessel.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.

 

[Antix_Shadows]

[x] Plan Hold the Course
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Wait to blow the bridge until Victorians are in sight of it.
-[X] The Navy will withdraw from Monroe; you don't think you need them. Instead, they will go to that grounded laker ship and have their marine complements board it, clearing out the Victorian soldiers and making it so civilian vessels from Detroit can begin looting the vessel.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

Aaaaaaaand the threadmarks issue was a known issue. It's resolved! Praise be to Xon!

 

[Simon_Jester]

My problem with "Hold the Course" is that if the Victorians have some kind of weird commando raid gambit in mind to seize the bridge, it might work. Think of something like Operation Market Garden, only with the lead wave of troops coming ashore in rowboats or something in the middle of the night instead of being parachuted out of the sky.

I don't mind this so much if we have naval support present in case something goes wrong with the bridge demolitions, or to counter any Victorian attempt to flank us on the water.

[Yes, Market Garden failed to take Arnhem and the final bridge, but it DID take the two bridge cities before that]

So I'd like to suggest...

[X] Plan Yummy Loot
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Retreat across the river and blow it now. Clever tactics are not worth the risk of the Victorians managing to seize and hold the bridge.
-[X] The Navy will withdraw from Monroe; you don't think you need them. Instead, they will go to that grounded laker ship and have their marine complements board it, clearing out the Victorian soldiers and making it so civilian vessels from Detroit can begin looting the vessel.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.

This plan takes the precaution of blowing up the bridge.

...

Of course, I still support

[X] Monroe tanks, Monroe problems
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Wait to blow the bridge until Victorians are in sight of it.
-[X] The Navy will remain, and continue to provide artillery cover over Monroe. You could use it to slow down the Vicks.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.

[X] Plan "Show the world that Americans can defeat Victoria"
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Retreat across the river and blow it now. Clever tactics are not worth the risk of the Victorians managing to seize and hold the bridge.
-[X] The Navy will remain, and continue to provide artillery cover over Monroe. You could use it to slow down the Vicks.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.

Coordinated action being one of their weak points, after all, from an excess of initiative.

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It occurs to me that their system may have worked better under Rumford (who to the neo-fascist Victorian army was a charismatic authority figure) than under his successors. Because Rumford could convince them to adhere to a plan, rather than haring off and doing whatever they saw fit.

 

[PoptartProdigy]

It occurs to me that their system may have worked better under Rumford (who to the neo-fascist Victorian army was a charismatic authority figure) than under his successors. Because Rumford could convince them to adhere to a plan, rather than haring off and doing whatever they saw fit.

Click to shrink...

The book largely supports this; while there are a few instances where Lind makes a point of praising extremely minor commanders for saying, "fuck the plan," and having a disproportionate impact, overall it reads like Rumford's beautiful setpiece engagements being executed par excellence.

 

[Thebigpieman]

Aaaaaaaand the threadmarks issue was a known issue. It's resolved! Praise be to Xon!

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PRAISE XON!

 

[Chimeraguard]

The book largely supports this; while there are a few instances where Lind makes a point of praising extremely minor commanders for saying, "fuck the plan," and having a disproportionate impact, overall it reads like Rumford's beautiful setpiece engagements being executed par excellence.

Click to shrink...

So, the real military anvil being dropped in the book in terms of leadership and officers for 4th-Gen War is: "general staff planning is bad, unless it's me doing it, in which case it should be done as much as possible."?