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[X] Negotiate. You don't want to put FCNY out, but you can't just ban a major arms manufacturer sight unseen. You have to arm up, too. Pick any of the following you like:
-[X] Offer to restrict any purchases from USA to hardware FCNY deems to be non-critical to their immediate deterrence needs. This could complicate your procurement strategy and would affect your bargaining power going into these critical negotiations, but would offer FCNY a guarantee that you simply will not impinge on the supplies they most need.
 
[X] Negotiate. You don't want to put FCNY out, but you can't just ban a major arms manufacturer sight unseen. You have to arm up, too. Pick any of the following you like:
-[X] Offer to restrict any purchases from USA to hardware FCNY deems to be non-critical to their immediate deterrence needs. This could complicate your procurement strategy and would affect your bargaining power going into these critical negotiations, but would offer FCNY a guarantee that you simply will not impinge on the supplies they most need.
 
[X] Yes. You aren't happy about cutting a major supplier of American-descended hardware -- reportedly one of the major suppliers of that hardware -- out of your market, but FCNY has convinced you that their need is truly dire. And, while they're not making threats yet, you don't especially want to test the goodwill of one of the other major nerve centers of the Revivalist movement, not while preparing for a massive war with Victoria.

After some thought about the arguments for negotiation, I decided to go with my initial gut reaction. Reliability matters. That these guys cut off supplies to a major customer before attending our arms fair just shows that they are more trouble than they are worth. We don't need that happening to us in the middle of our re-armament if Cali or Florida sweet talk them away from us...

And a FCNY that is more heavily armed has a big benefit to us in the next fight. Even if they don't join us in a war, the Vicks will need to defend their border more heavily the more stuff NY has in its armories.

Add these factors to the diplomatic ones - that NY is simply an actor that we need to have working relations with - this choice is clear.

Regards,

fasquardon
 
[X] Yes. You aren't happy about cutting a major supplier of American-descended hardware -- reportedly one of the major suppliers of that hardware -- out of your market, but FCNY has convinced you that their need is truly dire. And, while they're not making threats yet, you don't especially want to test the goodwill of one of the other major nerve centers of the Revivalist movement, not while preparing for a massive war with Victoria.
 
Great points by fasquardon.

[X] Yes. You aren't happy about cutting a major supplier of American-descended hardware -- reportedly one of the major suppliers of that hardware -- out of your market, but FCNY has convinced you that their need is truly dire. And, while they're not making threats yet, you don't especially want to test the goodwill of one of the other major nerve centers of the Revivalist movement, not while preparing for a massive war with Victoria.
 
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[X] Yes. You aren't happy about cutting a major supplier of American-descended hardware -- reportedly one of the major suppliers of that hardware -- out of your market, but FCNY has convinced you that their need is truly dire. And, while they're not making threats yet, you don't especially want to test the goodwill of one of the other major nerve centers of the Revivalist movement, not while preparing for a massive war with Victoria.
 
[X] Yes. You aren't happy about cutting a major supplier of American-descended hardware -- reportedly one of the major suppliers of that hardware -- out of your market, but FCNY has convinced you that their need is truly dire. And, while they're not making threats yet, you don't especially want to test the goodwill of one of the other major nerve centers of the Revivalist movement, not while preparing for a massive war with Victoria.
 
Yeah we don't have much of a reason to stay loyal to legacy American hardware right now when we can't build much heavy equipment, so have no problems seeing what China or Europe companies have and hell don't know who else could be decide to come and see if they can get a contract.
 
Yeah we don't have much of a reason to stay loyal to legacy American hardware right now when we can't build much heavy equipment, so have no problems seeing what China or Europe companies have and hell don't know who else could be decide to come and see if they can get a contract.
We do, actually. They specialize in equipping post-collapse American armies and are very good at it.
The Free City of New York has raised a formal objection at the Revivalist Council to you so dramatically entering into their sphere of influence. Your twin forays into the American Diaspora and the international arms market have caught the gaze of their prime providers of heavy equipment: USA, PLC, a London-based defense manufacturer focused on offering maintenance and procurement to countries still persisting on the prolific American defense legacy.
I recognize people have concerns about their reliability as a supplier, but they are very much good at intefacing and modernizing the american descended army. They are our synergy bonus for rolling high on two actions, so very much good at filling parts of our armament orders. I will also note we have an elite division based on legacy US hardware and most of our specialized equipment used by the ordinary soldiers probably being some stuff pulled from an old arms cache or bought from a guy who knows a guy who looted an army supply depot way back. I expect staying close to US developed systems to be an option with benefits for our army development, as importing a bunch of unknown technology takes time and a lot money.
 
The problem is that NY just doesn't have the land to defend its population, a lot of Victoria's artillery can just blindfire and likey still get a hit that kills a ton of people because NY is just so densely populated and NY also believes for good reason that Victoria will not just use normal shells but ones full of gas to maximize civilian casualties.
 
The problem is that NY just doesn't have the land to defend its population, a lot of Victoria's artillery can just blindfire and likey still get a hit that kills a ton of people because NY is just so densely populated and NY also believes for good reason that Victoria will not just use normal shells but ones full of gas to maximize civilian casualties.
They have thought of that. We have been repeatedly informed their plan during war is not to just sit behind their defences, but to grab land and establish a buffer zone so that artillery doesn't hit their urban area. That is why they want equipment more complicated than an infantry rifle and an RPG, they want to do offensive moves early during any war to put enough space between them and victorian artillery. How effective this would be is a different question I can't answer (they have a lot of money and population, but are also trying to circumvent army restrictions and going against a modernizing force with a lot of Russian support). In either case, our allies are not idiots unaware of the danger of terror bombing and have plans to not be put in an unwinnable situation.

Added quote for clarity:
A clarification: FCNY's plan is not to simply turtle, because Times Square is within artillery range of the border with Victoria. Turtling is not an option. The fortifications are there to slash the opening Victorian assault to ribbons so that FCNY can slam a counterattack a hundred miles deep into Victoria in all directions. They need a full military package. Agreeing to let them veto categories they consider absolutely critical is going to be a significant concession, because while it is conceivable they may think some things are expendable to the plan if it means they don't have to burn bridges with you, they're unlikely to decide that their fast and deep offensive will not require, say, tanks. Bear it in mind.
 
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NYC's army restrictions were lifted with the treaty. The problem is that they're starting from scratch. They have a heavily armed police force but that isn't a military, they need both time and equipment to have a force ready for the inevitable second showdown.
Were they? I am really sure their restrictions were part of a treaty with the Russian, hence their desire to be secretive about arm shipments. This treaty wouldn't be affected by us forcing Victoria to annul all their treaties.
 
Were they? I am really sure their restrictions were part of a treaty with the Russian, hence their desire to be secretive about arm shipments. This treaty wouldn't be affected by us forcing Victoria to annul all their treaties.
Their original "Disarmed" trait explicitly refers to Victoria and not "Russia through Victoria."
 
Their original "Disarmed" trait explicitly refers to Victoria and not "Russia through Victoria."
The phrasing is really ambigous ("Victoria won't let you rearm without a fight"), since it doesn't refer to the treaty that disarmed you directly.
  • Disarmed: Victoria may have let you live, but they have not let you arm yourself. Whenever you have tried, they have mobilized. It is clear that they will not permit you to become a military power without a fight. You have covertly made some arrangements, but you don't kid yourself; in a war, you would lose.
And considering how they went to the effort of continuing to have an on-demand arm supply outside their nation rather than shipping all their supplies straight into the city while Victoria is fighting a civil war, it seems unlikely they are only concerned about Victoria. Considering those factors, it is likely to me that Russia is also involved in this treaty, rather than Victoria itself. And legalities aside: This Russia and it's client State would certainly not permit a full rearmament of a state in Victorias flank, regardless what any piece of paper states. Russian aggression is a risk if New York remilitarizes too fast.
 
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Vote Closed
The disarmament treaty was between FCNY and Victoria itself, and per the treaty you imposed with the conclusion of the Erie War, that treaty is void. This is noted — albeit not explicitly stated in the most conceivably direct terms — in the update:
Nobody knew that this was coming; it was barred by treaty, and commonly assumed to be suicidal if Victoria caught wind of it, whatever the CFC had said about the Vicks canceling all their foreign treaties.
Not that it strictly matters, in any event; this is the moment to rearm, treaty or not, and FCNY is rearming. With, as noted in the update, at minimum five divisions of SWAT, they have not exactly been treating the spirit of the treaty with great respect and deference.

In any event, we've had a few days. Vote closed!
Adhoc vote count started by Manowl on Dec 23, 2024 at 3:33 PM, finished with 62 posts and 47 votes.

  • [X] Negotiate. You don't want to put FCNY out, but you can't just ban a major arms manufacturer sight unseen. You have to arm up, too. Pick any of the following you like:
    -[X] Offer to restrict any purchases from USA to hardware FCNY deems to be non-critical to their immediate deterrence needs. This could complicate your procurement strategy and would affect your bargaining power going into these critical negotiations, but would offer FCNY a guarantee that you simply will not impinge on the supplies they most need.
    [X] Yes. You aren't happy about cutting a major supplier of American-descended hardware -- reportedly one of the major suppliers of that hardware -- out of your market, but FCNY has convinced you that their need is truly dire. And, while they're not making threats yet, you don't especially want to test the goodwill of one of the other major nerve centers of the Revivalist movement, not while preparing for a massive war with Victoria.
    [X] Negotiate. You don't want to put FCNY out, but you can't just ban a major arms manufacturer sight unseen. You have to arm up, too. Pick any of the following you like:
    -[X] Offer to jointly approach USA.PLC with an agreement that FCNY will have a specific, majority proportion of any available deliveries for the first few years, with the balance shifting to you as time goes on. Requires that you each will need to purchase elsewhere to complete your armament plans, as there is not enough USA.PLC for the both of you.
    [X] Negotiate. You don't want to put FCNY out, but you can't just ban a major arms manufacturer sight unseen. You have to arm up, too. Pick any of the following you like:
    -[X] Allow FCNY to attend the CDE as a buyer so that they can speak to other companies that are there to compete for a full-force procurement contract and will want somebody to buy their things if they can't make the sale with you. This will not be as fast as the arrangement FCNY already had, however, and it will mean that you have competition for contracts instead of being the sole buyer.
    -[X] Offer to jointly approach USA.PLC with an agreement that FCNY will have a specific, majority proportion of any available deliveries for the first few years, with the balance shifting to you as time goes on. Requires that you each will need to purchase elsewhere to complete your armament plans, as there is not enough USA.PLC for the both of you.
    [X] Refuse outright. You will not handicap your procurement efforts like this.
    [X] Negotiate. You don't want to put FCNY out, but you can't just ban a major arms manufacturer sight unseen. You have to arm up, too. Pick any of the following you like:
    [X][X] Offer to jointly approach USA.PLC with an agreement that FCNY will have a specific, majority proportion of any available deliveries for the first few years, with the balance shifting to you as time goes on. Requires that you each will need to purchase elsewhere to complete your armament plans, as there is not enough USA.PLC for the both of you.
    [X] Negotiate. You don't want to put FCNY out, but you can't just ban a major arms manufacturer sight unseen. You have to arm up, too. Pick any of the following you like:
    -[X] Allow FCNY to attend the CDE as a buyer so that they can speak to other companies that are there to compete for a full-force procurement contract and will want somebody to buy their things if they can't make the sale with you. This will not be as fast as the arrangement FCNY already had, however, and it will mean that you have competition for contracts instead of being the sole buyer.
    [X] Negotiate. You don't want to put FCNY out, but you can't just ban a major arms manufacturer sight unseen. You have to arm up, too. Pick any of the following you like:
    -[X] Swear that you will not purchase arms if that would disrupt shipments to FCNY. This is a significant gesture of goodwill, but with the world so unsettled, ultimately these may not be terms that anybody can guarantee; if USA sees any more major demand spikes, they'll have to prioritize, and somebody will lose their order.

Your winner:

[X] Negotiate. You don't want to put FCNY out, but you can't just ban a major arms manufacturer sight unseen. You have to arm up, too. Pick any of the following you like:
-[X] Offer to restrict any purchases from USA to hardware FCNY deems to be non-critical to their immediate deterrence needs. This could complicate your procurement strategy and would affect your bargaining power going into these critical negotiations, but would offer FCNY a guarantee that you simply will not impinge on the supplies they most need.

Writing!
Scheduled vote count started by PoptartProdigy on Dec 20, 2024 at 2:21 AM, finished with 72 posts and 47 votes.

  • [X] Negotiate. You don't want to put FCNY out, but you can't just ban a major arms manufacturer sight unseen. You have to arm up, too. Pick any of the following you like:
    -[X] Offer to restrict any purchases from USA to hardware FCNY deems to be non-critical to their immediate deterrence needs. This could complicate your procurement strategy and would affect your bargaining power going into these critical negotiations, but would offer FCNY a guarantee that you simply will not impinge on the supplies they most need.
    [X] Yes. You aren't happy about cutting a major supplier of American-descended hardware -- reportedly one of the major suppliers of that hardware -- out of your market, but FCNY has convinced you that their need is truly dire. And, while they're not making threats yet, you don't especially want to test the goodwill of one of the other major nerve centers of the Revivalist movement, not while preparing for a massive war with Victoria.
    [X] Negotiate. You don't want to put FCNY out, but you can't just ban a major arms manufacturer sight unseen. You have to arm up, too. Pick any of the following you like:
    -[X] Offer to jointly approach USA.PLC with an agreement that FCNY will have a specific, majority proportion of any available deliveries for the first few years, with the balance shifting to you as time goes on. Requires that you each will need to purchase elsewhere to complete your armament plans, as there is not enough USA.PLC for the both of you.
    [X] Negotiate. You don't want to put FCNY out, but you can't just ban a major arms manufacturer sight unseen. You have to arm up, too. Pick any of the following you like:
    -[X] Allow FCNY to attend the CDE as a buyer so that they can speak to other companies that are there to compete for a full-force procurement contract and will want somebody to buy their things if they can't make the sale with you. This will not be as fast as the arrangement FCNY already had, however, and it will mean that you have competition for contracts instead of being the sole buyer.
    -[X] Offer to jointly approach USA.PLC with an agreement that FCNY will have a specific, majority proportion of any available deliveries for the first few years, with the balance shifting to you as time goes on. Requires that you each will need to purchase elsewhere to complete your armament plans, as there is not enough USA.PLC for the both of you.
    [X] Refuse outright. You will not handicap your procurement efforts like this.
    [X] Negotiate. You don't want to put FCNY out, but you can't just ban a major arms manufacturer sight unseen. You have to arm up, too. Pick any of the following you like:
    [X][X] Offer to jointly approach USA.PLC with an agreement that FCNY will have a specific, majority proportion of any available deliveries for the first few years, with the balance shifting to you as time goes on. Requires that you each will need to purchase elsewhere to complete your armament plans, as there is not enough USA.PLC for the both of you.
    [X] Negotiate. You don't want to put FCNY out, but you can't just ban a major arms manufacturer sight unseen. You have to arm up, too. Pick any of the following you like:
    -[X] Allow FCNY to attend the CDE as a buyer so that they can speak to other companies that are there to compete for a full-force procurement contract and will want somebody to buy their things if they can't make the sale with you. This will not be as fast as the arrangement FCNY already had, however, and it will mean that you have competition for contracts instead of being the sole buyer.
    [X] Negotiate. You don't want to put FCNY out, but you can't just ban a major arms manufacturer sight unseen. You have to arm up, too. Pick any of the following you like:
    -[X] Swear that you will not purchase arms if that would disrupt shipments to FCNY. This is a significant gesture of goodwill, but with the world so unsettled, ultimately these may not be terms that anybody can guarantee; if USA sees any more major demand spikes, they'll have to prioritize, and somebody will lose their order.
 
They are our synergy bonus for rolling high on two actions, so very much good at filling parts of our armament orders.

Is USA Plc the reward, or is the opportunity to improve relations with NY the reward?

If the people musing about Victoria still having most of its industry in NY state, FCNY taking even a buffer zone in a loosely coordinated way with our own actions against the Vicks could have an enormous impact in the next war.

Also, we are alot more difficult to get arms to from Europe. A European-made American style weapon in NY is more valuable than the same weapon in the Commonwealth simply because the ammunition supply will be more reliable for the free city.

Ships to NY just needs to run whatever interference the Russians can spare and then unload on the finest port facilities left in North America. Ships to the Commonwealth need to run Russian interference, unload at N'Awlins, the cargo barged up the (as yet) balkanized and poorly maintained Mississippi lifeline and unloaded at the much smaller scale dockyard in the Commonwealth and then sent by rail or road to wherever the front line is.

The weapons we need from abroad are the high value force multipliers that can let the domestic mass produced weapons we will mostly be depending on hit harder. The logistical situation precludes anything else.

I don't know, maybe USA Plc is all about producing upgrade kits that make pre-collapse weapon designs vastly more effective. But given that they seem to have built the company around rushing supplies to a Free City that could be supplied by sea and that was forbidden by treaty from having a domestic arms industry, and that also lacks the space to just ship in kit weapons factories and set them up, my bet is that USA Plc are not in fact a great catch for us, even if we did ignore their betraying their main customer.

Anyway, we're negotiating, and going with an approach that could maybe give us the best of both worlds. We'll see if we roll well.

Regards,

fasquardon
 
Also, we are alot more difficult to get arms to from Europe. A European-made American style weapon in NY is more valuable than the same weapon in the Commonwealth simply because the ammunition supply will be more reliable for the free city.
The main problem the CFC faces is getting the weapons themselves; the Seven Year Plan's primary goal was to get our own arms industry to the point where we can produce all our own munitions domestically in time for the next war with Victoria, maybe even spare parts if we manage to make brilliant progress. If we're in a position where we actually have to import such from another continent (and past Victorian territory, if we're shipping them in from Europe) then we're not in any tenable position to win said war.
 
Glad to see this quest back, I spent the past few days rereading it and it was a real pleasure. Let us hope we can negotiate with FCNY about this.
 
Europe is not the only place were we can get weapons guys like there is other companies interested in a new client.
It is not, no. But the ways by which any of them might be delivered are quite limited, with how comprehensively ruined the continent's infrastructure is. There's a reason why we're scrambling to secure the Mississippi, and why the Revivalist Council's biggest current megaproject in the works is to get even a single highway or railroad to connect to the NCR by land.
 
We do, actually. They specialize in equipping post-collapse American armies and are very good at it.

I recognize people have concerns about their reliability as a supplier, but they are very much good at intefacing and modernizing the american descended army. They are our synergy bonus for rolling high on two actions, so very much good at filling parts of our armament orders. I will also note we have an elite division based on legacy US hardware and most of our specialized equipment used by the ordinary soldiers probably being some stuff pulled from an old arms cache or bought from a guy who knows a guy who looted an army supply depot way back. I expect staying close to US developed systems to be an option with benefits for our army development, as importing a bunch of unknown technology takes time and a lot money.
Nitpick. That's not a post collapse army in America, aka Chicago and new York. That's say Singapore, Saudi Arabia, Taiwan and etc.
.

We also have a brigade of M1 tanks and Bradleys, not a division.

Our guns, small arms and supporting arms like mortars are probably old American howitzers though..

Similarly, our Technicals are likely armed and equipped with American gear, although we seen RPG 7 being used for our manportable AT gear.


F16Vs are from Victoria and can be serviced via help of NCR, although how much use they can be, as well as how reliable an ally they will be is unknown, depending on our quest choices. But we already started screwing NCR over at the Revivalist conference.

So regarding New York, how easy would it be for Victoria to bypass New Yorks defenses?

Depends on the Russians. We simply don't know how fast or how far Russia is willing to rearm Victoria.

We can expect Blackwell army to be less idiotic in nature, as the hardcore Rumsford believers died in the civil war or will have learnt to keep their views quiet. Having said that, an entire culture beliefs don't just... Disappear like that.
In the next 2 years or so, Victorian forces should be very green, don't have the elan to push forward and remain cohesive after suffering heavy losses and they really can't afford heavy manpower losses, which may restrict their operations and affect their doctrine.

The presentation we gave to Congress was that if we bought fully foreign arms, we can possibly attack Victoria in 5 years, this when they are at their "weakest" and haven't recovered from the civil war/Erie campaign.

It is not, no. But the ways by which any of them might be delivered are quite limited, with how comprehensively ruined the continent's infrastructure is. There's a reason why we're scrambling to secure the Mississippi, and why the Revivalist Council's biggest current megaproject in the works is to get even a single highway or railroad to connect to the NCR by land.
The Miami faction, pirates in the Carribbean may make trade through the Panama problematic and lastly, Brazil/Peru and other Central/South American states may be looking to annex New Orleans. So yeah... The naval route from Europe is safest.



Sadly, France got destabilised by Alexander before he died, so one of the premier army/Airforce exporters of Europe is currently problematic for us to source arms from.

Germany in this timeline must has rearmed successfully but who knows? Maybe they fucked it up and wasted the time Poland bought, just like IRL right now Vis Ukraine. Italy a mess but they another potential source for frigates and there's always good old Sweden.
 
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