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Oh, and that quote outright says the great powers are on 6th gen aircraft, if they are a generation beyond the pre-Collapse US.
The F35 is a 5th gen design. As is the F22.
California is distinctly behind the curve if theyre operating F-35s.
 
Oh, and that quote outright says the great powers are on 6th gen aircraft, if they are a generation beyond the pre-Collapse US.
The F35 is a 5th gen design. As is the F22.
California is distinctly behind the curve if theyre operating F-35s.
In the current world, fifth-generation fighters are something of a rarity among the great powers, and the overwhelming majority of everyone's air force consists of fourth generation or what are called "4.5th generation" uprated fighters. I suspect that the state of affairs is much the same here.

The reality for 21st century air forces seems to be that you maintain a force of bleeding-edge interceptors and strike aircraft to do the hardest jobs associated with penetrating enemy airspace and dealing with the enemy's own best interceptor units, IF you're alarmingly rich and capable and have a great arms industry. But then much of the actual fighting is done by cheaper, more easily maintained fighters that are usually updates of a design that originated something like 30-50 years ago.

(It used to be, between the dawn of aviation in 1900 and the 1980s or so, that the gap between 'generations' of fighter performance was shorter, averaging something like ten years, but things have changed and slowed down a lot as development cycles lengthened)

So is having a big F-35 force "behind the curve?" Yes... and then again... no. If their avionics kit is up to modern standards, if the munitions they fire are fully capable and effective by modern standards, if their battle management and networking technology is effective by modern standards? Then you've got a force that nobody can take lightly, even if they do in fact have, somewhere in their military Su-99 Obliterator planes whose raw airframe performance is significantly better than an F-35 in the same sense that the F-35 is superior to the F-16, or the F-16 is superior to the F-4.

Sort of like how in 1985 the US could strut the stuff of its shiny new F-something-teen fighters, but still had to be wary of MiG-21s that were competently handled and had good munitions. Or how in the Vietnam era their fancy Mach 2 jet fighters still had to be wary of MiG-17 and MiG-19 fighters- the former of which couldn't even break the sound barrier.
 
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If Russians approve of the buyer, they can sell their own gear. There aren't many clients to whom Alexander would be unwilling to sell shit, but would allow his vassal to do so.

Russians upgrading their own arms industry while using NCR as a source of "garbage-tier" equipment (Abrams, F-16V and other late Cold War equipment, if modified) to arm their clients elsewhere cheaply (Like Victoria, Central Vietnam and whoever else they prop up in Africa and Asia) sounds much more plausible than allowing their vassal to undercut their own profits from sales of cool equipment like T-14s, Su-57s and the like.

P.S. Alexander is a rabid environmentalist; I will pull quotes from Discord to confirm that shortly.
DWERGAR!

I TOLD YOU PEOPLE NOT TO PULL THIS SHIT BECAUSE I WAS WORKING UP MY OWN POST ON THE MATTER!
 
Alexander is a rabid environmentalist...

That would actually be a remarkably effective way to incite support for Alexander's reign, domestically speaking. While he has exacerbated serious catastrophes for Russia's gain at the expense of other nations, he could honestly say "I saved the human race from the consequences of its excesses," and he would be right to say so. Being the "Savior of the Human Race" would make die-hard loyalists out of a significant portion of the Russian people. It could also allude to a multidimensional personality and motivations, which is always nice to see in a villain, imo. :p
 
So! This is as good a time as any to discuss how I approach the Discord.

Traditionally, my quests discord never saw much traffic. It was pretty niche, I made a point of ensuring there was steady information flow between that and quest threads, and I wasn't terribly invested in community management.

That changed quite significantly with the advent of Victoria Falls.

There are probably a few reasons for this -- my other two quests had the server come in partway through as an add-on after their communities were solidly established, whereas the server has been a part of Victoria Falls since the beginning, and Victoria Falls is by far my highest-engagement quest -- but the upshot is that traffic has exploded; we have tons of just-for-fun channels about politics, what-ifs, workplace bitching or just memelording; and, crucially, there's actually a critical mass of people where stuff starts happening beyond discussing the update.

None of this, however, changes my policy about Discord and information sharing: I want to keep the information flow steady from the Discord to the quest thread (the reverse, for obvious reasons, is of little concern). In general, I would appreciate people copying any rulings I make on the Discord to the thread promptly and in context, and if people don't, I will.

There has, to date, been one exception.

Discussion on the Victoria Falls channel turned to global warming and what the Collapse's effects would be on that if I were modeling them -- which, initially, I was not doing given that I had no idea what they would be. I got involved once people concluded, "Nah, planet's still fucked," out of curiosity as to what it would even take to have things be still generally salvageable at this point in time. Discussion spiraled, I found myself sitting on an actually-plausible explanation, and I decided to roll with it.

And, at the conclusion of the discussion, I asked folks to kindly not share it to the thread just yet, as our conclusions deserved a fairly in-depth post from me including the context and logic behind them, and also to avoid pretty much exactly what just happened.

So! Going forward, sharing things I've asked not be shared so that I can announce them properly nets you, on the first offense, getting kicked from the server, enforced for twenty-four hours.

And now, rather than updating Terminus Quest and closing the vote over in After the End (and, in the process, getting out of its doldrums of a tangent arc and into things I actually like), I will be making a massive effortpost about global warming, Alexander IV of Russia, and the Great Collapse. Please fucking hold.
 
And the one time Victorians even somewhat directly fought an American successor even remotely prepared for the fight — the war with the Pacific Republic — it was numbers alone that did the dirty deed. They still got absolutely ravaged, and the Pacific Republic was able to peace out relatively intact.
Yeah.
It does speak to the strength of Sister Cali that even in defeat during the depths of the Collapse, Alexander had to force a legal treaty with stipulations instead of simply taking what he wanted like with other nations.

Pretty sure he knows that Sis Cali still has nukes. And that in the event of bad things happening, someone is going to smuggle said nukes into major Russian cities in a van.
In the current world, fifth-generation fighters are something of a rarity among the great powers, and the overwhelming majority of everyone's air force consists of fourth generation or what are called "4.5th generation" uprated fighters. I suspect that the state of affairs is much the same here.

The reality for 21st century air forces seems to be that you maintain a force of bleeding-edge interceptors and strike aircraft to do the hardest jobs associated with penetrating enemy airspace and dealing with the enemy's own best interceptor units, IF you're alarmingly rich and capable and have a great arms industry. But then much of the actual fighting is done by cheaper, more easily maintained fighters that are usually updates of a design that originated something like 30-50 years ago.

(It used to be, between the dawn of aviation in 1900 and the 1980s or so, that the gap between 'generations' of fighter performance was shorter, averaging something like ten years, but things have changed and slowed down a lot as development cycles lengthened)

So is having a big F-35 force "behind the curve?" Yes... and then again... no. If their avionics kit is up to modern standards, if the munitions they fire are fully capable and effective by modern standards, if their battle management and networking technology is effective by modern standards? Then you've got a force that nobody can take lightly, even if they do in fact have, somewhere in their military Su-99 Obliterator planes whose raw airframe performance is significantly better than an F-35 in the same sense that the F-35 is superior to the F-16, or the F-16 is superior to the F-4.

Sort of like how in 1985 the US could strut the stuff of its shiny new F-something-teen fighters, but still had to be wary of MiG-21s that were competently handled and had good munitions. Or how in the Vietnam era their fancy Mach 2 jet fighters still had to be wary of MiG-17 and MiG-19 fighters- the former of which couldn't even break the sound barrier.
-Thing is, though, that we've only seen replacement ptograms this slow since the Cold War ended.
Since 1990 we've been living in the longest period of Great Power rapprochement in the last century and half.
That retarded the scope and speed of aircraft and other heavy metal rearmament programs.

The F22 was designed in the mid-80s to replace the F15 and F16 with a buy of 750 aircraft starting in 1994; that ended up cut down to 187 with the end of the Cold War. The F35 was 7 years behind schedule without major impairment to US security. Even the M1 Abrams has not seen serious discussion of a replacement in 40 years, when all of it's predecessors lasted 20 years or less.

In this setting tho, we've had multiple instances of multiple Great Powers, from Russia to Japan to China to India, move on their neighbors. We've seen the Great Power of China dissolve into effective civil war and reconstitute itself, and the US shatter like glass. The first use of a nuclear weapon on a civilian city in almost a century, and the closest thing to WW3 since the Cuban Missile Crisis.

The Cold War is back on steroids, and military spending programs have gone into overdrive to match.
There's good odds that among the Great Power/First World users of the F35, it's been relegated to reserve/militia/national guard pilots, while new craft have emerged as first-line aircraft.

-I'm not saying they're negligible.
Or not dangerous. Just that the qualitative difference between successive so-called generations is increasingly stark.
Some of that is electronics and weapons which can be taken from the new planes and retrofitted. A lot of it is not.
 
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That would actually be a remarkably effective way to incite support for Alexander's reign, domestically speaking. While he has exacerbated serious catastrophes for Russia's gain at the expense of other nations, he could honestly say "I saved the human race from the consequences of its excesses," and he would be right to say so. Being the "Savior of the Human Race" would make die-hard loyalists out of a significant portion of the Russian people. It could also allude to a multidimensional personality and motivations, which is always nice to see in a villain, imo. :p

It's a nice thing he did there at least, so he's got one tick in the positive side and a million in the other, but it won't save him from the noose if we ever get our hands on him.
 
@uju32

In fairness, you have a point about how the increased frequency of international conflict has probably driven more military-specific R&D and international arms racing, even as overall scientific progress has likely slowed down due to the huge economic crash and... other priorities. The two processes might well to a large extent cancel out.

On the other hand...

Or not dangerous. Just that the qualitative difference between successive so-called generations is increasingly stark.
Some of that is electronics and weapons which can be taken from the new planes and retrofitted. A lot of it is not.
I'm not sure how universally true that is.

There's been a big transformational leap upward between the 4th and 5th generation fighters, mostly a result of stealth, networking, and much better BVR tactics being worked out. What the next incremental leap beyond that is likely to be? Well, there are a few definite candidates. Drone fighters that bypass the limitations of the pilot are the most obvious contender. There are probably a few other possibilities.

But as of 2020, I don't think we're in a great position to say with certainty "yes, clearly the next generation of fighters rolling out in 10-15 years will trivialize even upgraded versions of the fighters that rolled out 10-15 years ago."

I don't think there's an upward trend in how much each 'generation' of fighter aircraft outperforms the previous one at all. I think there just happened to be a big bump up between the 1970s-designed 4th generation (when "make sure it can dogfight against MiG-17s" and "so, what if we use integrated circuits" and "stealth, what's that" were the big phrases dominating the design process) and the 1990s-designed 5th generation (which was built with a completely different mindset).
 
What the next incremental leap beyond that is likely to be? Well, there are a few definite candidates. Drone fighters that bypass the limitations of the pilot are the most obvious contender. There are probably a few other possibilities.
Does that mean we're about to reenact the plot of Ace Combat 7? This means we need to, at minimum, find or build an asteroid interception array to wage war on our enemies.
 
Hm...

This plan has my vote currently:

[ ] Plan Block Punch, Apply Pressure, Then Stab
-[ ] Defend with all committable forces.
-[ ] Limited assault.
--[ ] Once the enemy is judged to be appropriately softened up and overextended, use Old World Equipment to launch a decisive, crushing assault.
-[ ] Order Admiral Romano to try to capture the Victorian freighters.
--[ ] Alert him to possible traps such as explosives, hostages, or infectious diseases.
--[ ] He has permission to sink the freighters if capture would present unacceptable risks to his command.
-[ ] Full bombardment.

Though the only thing I'm leery about is having the fleet do full bombardment instead of blockade. But the Vics are unlikely to *have* much transport fleet left.
 
Does that mean we're about to reenact the plot of Ace Combat 7? This means we need to, at minimum, find or build an asteroid interception array to wage war on our enemies.
Stick with Amber Cormier and you'll make it.

I'd say "Stick with Wendy Harrelson," but that didn't work very well now did it...

(I got writers'-blocked for a while, but Warbirds is still out there)

Hm...

This plan has my vote currently:

[ ] Plan Block Punch, Apply Pressure, Then Stab
-[ ] Defend with all committable forces.
-[ ] Limited assault.
--[ ] Once the enemy is judged to be appropriately softened up and overextended, use Old World Equipment to launch a decisive, crushing assault.
-[ ] Order Admiral Romano to try to capture the Victorian freighters.
--[ ] Alert him to possible traps such as explosives, hostages, or infectious diseases.
--[ ] He has permission to sink the freighters if capture would present unacceptable risks to his command.
-[ ] Full bombardment.

Though the only thing I'm leery about is having the fleet do full bombardment instead of blockade. But the Vics are unlikely to *have* much transport fleet left.
If we were planning a siege I'd be more concerned with blockade. As it stands, the Victorians wouldn't be sacrificially writing off their army's available freighters if they had a realistic hope of getting supplies or reinforcements to that army soon.

For an assault, even a limited one, the intensity of damaging artillery fire we can put down, and the number of targets we can reach in the Victorian rear area, are going to be pretty important.
 
Yeah.
It does speak to the strength of Sister Cali that even in defeat during the depths of the Collapse, Alexander had to force a legal treaty with stipulations instead of simply taking what he wanted like with other nations.

Pretty sure he knows that Sis Cali still has nukes. And that in the event of bad things happening, someone is going to smuggle said nukes into major Russian cities in a van.

-Thing is, though, that we've only seen replacement ptograms this slow since the Cold War ended.
Since 1990 we've been living in the longest period of Great Power rapprochement in the last century and half.
That retarded the scope and speed of aircraft and other heavy metal rearmament programs.

The F22 was designed in the mid-80s to replace the F15 and F16 with a buy of 750 aircraft starting in 1994; that ended up cut down to 187 with the end of the Cold War. The F35 was 7 years behind schedule without major impairment to US security. Even the M1 Abrams has not seen serious discussion of a replacement in 40 years, when all of it's predecessors lasted 20 years or less.

In this setting tho, we've had multiple instances of multiple Great Powers, from Russia to Japan to China to India, move on their neighbors. We've seen the Great Power of China dissolve into effective civil war and reconstitute itself, and the US shatter like glass. The first use of a nuclear weapon on a civilian city in almost a century, and the closest thing to WW3 since the Cuban Missile Crisis.

The Cold War is back on steroids, and military spending programs have gone into overdrive to match.
There's good odds that among the Great Power/First World users of the F35, it's been relegated to reserve/militia/national guard pilots, while new craft have emerged as first-line aircraft.

-I'm not saying they're negligible.
Or not dangerous. Just that the qualitative difference between successive so-called generations is increasingly stark.
Some of that is electronics and weapons which can be taken from the new planes and retrofitted. A lot of it is not.
I think the OP is trying too hard to not to go too much into Hyper!Tech LALA-Land of AI-controlled hypersonic drone fighters and other hyper-tech bullshit.
 
Stick with Amber Cormier and you'll make it.

I'd say "Stick with Wendy Harrelson," but that didn't work very well now did it...

(I got writers'-blocked for a while, but Warbirds is still out there)
"Does the memory of a flag mean anything to you?"

"Yet what is a nation."

"Victoria has declared war on the City State of Detroit."

"There are cultural-marxists like you in every generation. And I felled every last one of them."

"Adios, you damn fool."


And other assorted lunacy. :V
 
I think the OP is trying too hard to not to go too much into Hyper!Tech LALA-Land of AI-controlled hypersonic drone fighters and other hyper-tech bullshit.
I think this is true, and likely wise, and that it would be much better all around if we avoid any military technology not already prototyped or a minor extrapolation from what is already prototyped, in terms of "what is practical and gets deployed?"
 
Global Warming
So, before I get into this, I must direct due credit to @Godwinson, who more than anybody else was central to the development of this theory. I can make the the outcome fit into the realities of the setting, but I can't figure out how to make the outcome plausible without a more knowledgeable participant.

So! Global warming. Short version's at the bottom. To begin with, I'll summarize roughly how the conversation went.

We said:
Let us assume that the Collapse halts any organized attempts at halting the progress of global warming -- such as they are. It annihilates organized industry in North America, severely hinders it in China and Europe for many years, and in general causes chaos, but the upshot is that the people struggling to stand back up are doing so by any means available without concern for going green. Is that enough for things to have stalled out roughly where they are today, and remain salvageable with great investment?

No, not remotely. The planet's still fucked. Coastal regions have gone submersible.

How about if China decided to continue its trend of going hard into renewables? Would that do it?

I mean, it'd help, but it's not enough.

Oof, okay. What if we added Europe?

No. Honestly, almost negligible in the grand scheme of things.

Russia being on top of things to such a ludicrous extent kind of does swing things pretty hard, doesn't it?

Honestly, even Russia alone wouldn't be enough. Not unless they went all-in on restructuring from a petrostate, and took the Collapse as an opportunity to absolutely loot the world of intellectuals to assist. Even then, only maybe.

And they wouldn't have much motive to try, now that I think about it. Doesn't the world getting warmer make huge swathes of their country, well, livable?

Well...

Picture that you are a Chinese citizen living in Shanghai. The central government has collapsed. America has died. Europe is in chaos. India despises you, and all your people, and has been an avowed foe for decades. Japan has gone imperialist again. The rest of Asia, in fact, generally is in agreement that you and yours should have as little ability to impact the course of international politics as possible. The world is on fire. The greatest power on Earth is Russia, under the command of its new Tsar. Everywhere else is on fire, collapsing, or directly in the sights of the seemingly-unstoppable titan that is the New Russian Empire. More to the point, Russia is nearby, stable, probably won't kill you, and probably the safest place on Earth.

It is with the world in this shape that the sea rises and swallows your home.

Where do you go?

Tsar Alexander IV of the New Russian Empire is, if nothing else, far-sighted. While he has made a career of exploiting and worsening global catastrophes to Russia's relative benefit, he is primarily concerned with things that leave others miserable and unable to resist him, while leaving himself unburdened. He fully intended, once he realized his immense relative strength, to take full advantage and emplace Russia as the global hegemon. He knew, and eagerly accepted, exactly what that would entail him doing to the other great powers on the planet. He knew the intense chaos and hardship he would be imposing on others, and the relatively immense prosperity he would be lording over their heads. He even managed to successfully predict the general shape of things to come.

While he personally had little emotional investment in global warming, he was sensible enough to listen when scientists screamed, and he relished neither constant Siberian wildfires nor a flood of refugees from regions rapidly submerging into the oceans. Alexander looked at the future of the world, and he saw a game that nobody would win, no matter how readily they were able to weather the immediate effects. And unlike the leaders of the late 20th century and the turn of the millennium, he knew that he would be living in the world he created. It would be him that watched the world collapse, not temporarily in a way that could emerge restored and under Russian rule, but permanently in a way that would leave him ruler of nothing but ashes. It would be him trying to rule as Siberia burned, as the far reaches of his empire became unmanageable.

And thus, when he began to rebuild Russia as the rest of the world collapsed, Alexander IV decided that he would go down in history, no matter what else he did, as the man who saved the world, and also saved himself the biggest headache in history. As I said in Discord, "It can be his redeeming quality. He can have one." Even then, it came about for fundamentally selfish reasons.

And, furthermore, just Russia going all-in was not enough.

Let's trace the timeline. The Collapse happens. For various reasons, Russia collapses first, but Alexander -- former Russian military -- goes warlord and manages to come out on top. Somehow -- and this is the story's unicorn, aside from the fundamental fact of being based on Victoria at all -- Russia pulls out of the death spiral before any other major power. Way ahead of time, in fact, to the point that it constitutes an almost insurmountable geopolitical advantage. Alexander has the above train of thought. He does loot the shit out of the planet's intellectual resources and leads a massive effort in environmentalism. This includes renewable energy sources and some means of actively reversing the damage we've already caused that he manages to get nonproblematic and off the ground. And, of course, he continues his efforts at empire-building. That said, the cost of his initiatives is truly catastrophic. It is one of several reasons why he conquered his way merrily through ex-Soviet central Asia but couldn't get to Finland before Scandinavia got its shit sufficiently together to make it an acquisition that would be too tough to crack without a fight he didn't yet want. He just did not have enough to do everything he wanted, and paid the price. And even with this huge investment, once again, Russia alone is probably not enough.

So, what else is going on in the world?

In China, IRL and in this timeline, the PRC has been going into renewables for years. The collapse of the international oil trade did not do much to reverse this trend, and for their last years, that is their focus. Frankly, given how things shake up, even once they reform they don't have easy or simple access to massive oil reserves. They remain focused on renewables. While they have little reason to be eager to step along in Alexander's footprints, it just makes sense by this point.

India is a Russian ally, and also in the danger zone for the effects of global warming. As has been depressingly typical in history, the first part is more a factor than the second. Alex puts the pressure on them, and they agree because hey, why not? Big guy up north is really into this stuff, and a Russia a day keeps the China away, so sure. Give us some kickbacks, Alex, and we'll build some Himalayan dams.

Europe? Well, they're not the biggest factor in this scenario, but they're in it, and while they're fervently opposed to Alexander, he makes a regular point of smearing in the international press anybody who puts in less than an effort than he does. And fuck, despite all that Alexander has done, some of the effects of global warming are increasingly difficult to ignore. Scientists are shrieking that no, it is not an elaborate play for PR on Alexander's part, he really is achieving something, and realistically he's the only reason the Netherlands aren't a submarine. The issue has been made fully in people's faces, now, and it's politically unhealthy for politicians to not help out when even fucking Alexander is doing his part and then some. Europe, grudgingly and almost competitively, as though to show Alexander that he doesn't get to fucking outdo them, climbs aboard the train-

-and by this point, we have Russia, China, India, and Europe all aboard the environmentalism train, North America out of the market entirely aside from the pittance which Victoria commands, Middle Eastern oil still not back up and running thanks in large part to Alex making it his business to fuck up anybody trying to make that happen, and the rest of the world market at this point honestly has to look at the critical mass of green going on in Eurasia and start to bend. The effort is not unified, but it is intense. In and around the suffering and death of the Collapse, there is one speck of hope: the environment, at least, has halted its death spiral. The work is not done, and things in fact still rest on a knife's edge. The next few years will be crucial. However, people have stepped up enough that the planet has not taken the final plunge.

That, after much discussion, is how I have decided to implement climate change in this quest.

To summarize: Alexander was convinced to swing hard into environmental solutions, largely, as ever, for self-serving reasons. India, his ally, came aboard. China was already on that path for unrelated reasons. Europe came aboard quite resentfully, but it's on. North America is out of the picture. The oil trade died in the Collapse and never really recovered anyway. Momentum took care of the rest from there. Russia, as a side effect of the colossal spending this took, is now in a moment of weakness — a good part of the reason why they lapsed in their global campaign of punching down.

Things have not deteriorated much since the modern day, but the crisis point is only a few years away. If current trends continue, the people of Earth will avert the big shift...but it is entirely possible for things to still go wrong. It all depends on if the current trends do continue.
 
This may be a bit too hopeful on China's efforts. It's true that they've invested in renewables, kinda, and plan to go back to nuclear too. But so far it has basically just offset their growth:

climateactiontracker.org

China


And China has a lot of development left to go in the interior.

Of course, not having oil kinda restrict their options, and coal is pretty inefficient.

But frankly America being out of the picture is probably the deciding factor here. It doesn't just kill America's domestic emissions, but also all the junk they purchase from the rest of the world.
 
Would be funny if a reunited USA tips the climate over the edge. Because we're probably not getting back to an industrialised nation without shittons of cheap energy, and the US has a lot of coal to burn.
 
I assume the Victorians still consider climate change as a cultural Marxist plot though.

Victoria: "if all that climate change garbage was real we'd all be underwater by now, so it's obviously fake. Checkmate, Cultural Marxists."

Every climatologist, renewable power engineer, and refugee displaced from their lowland homes: "Are we a joke to you?"
 
Victoria: "if all that climate change garbage was real we'd all be underwater by now, so it's obviously fake. Checkmate, Cultural Marxists."

Every climatologist, renewable power engineer, and refugee displaced from their lowland homes: "Are we a joke to you?"
Victoria: "It snows during winter. Checkmate, Climate Marxists!"
 
Given that IRL we're probably turboscrewed, this probably makes this quest a good timeline.

God, we're so fucked. I'm not having kids, I'll just ride out the disaster as best I can and hope it doesn't get too bad before I kick the bucket.
 
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