Voting is open
[x] Plan Hold the Course
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Wait to blow the bridge until Victorians are in sight of it.
-[X] The Navy will withdraw from Monroe; you don't think you need them. Instead, they will go to that grounded laker ship and have their marine complements board it, clearing out the Victorian soldiers and making it so civilian vessels from Detroit can begin looting the vessel.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.

The river gives the first line of defenders some cushion room as far as weathering a breakthrough is concerned, so we can afford to conserve the strength of the BRO. Using the bridge as bait to lure more Viks into a killzone without the risks associated with using it as an IED by waiting for them to actually be on it. Also, the possibility of being able to instantly arm multiple new divisions is tantalizing, and worth the delay in naval fire support. I think we're all unanimous on the question of the journalists/observers.

[X] Plan Yummy Loot
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Retreat across the river and blow it now. Clever tactics are not worth the risk of the Victorians managing to seize and hold the bridge.
-[X] The Navy will withdraw from Monroe; you don't think you need them. Instead, they will go to that grounded laker ship and have their marine complements board it, clearing out the Victorian soldiers and making it so civilian vessels from Detroit can begin looting the vessel.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.

On the other hand, I'm not too busted up about it if we don't even want to risk making the approach to the bridge a bait-and-switch. Also, isn't Yummy Loot identical to Plan Random?
 
...Wait. The fuck. Plan Hold the Course I put up before voting started had blowing up the bridge immediately as part of it.

@Rockeye don't go appropriating others' plan names please. :(

[X] Plan Yummy Loot
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Retreat across the river and blow it now. Clever tactics are not worth the risk of the Victorians managing to seize and hold the bridge.
-[X] The Navy will withdraw from Monroe; you don't think you need them. Instead, they will go to that grounded laker ship and have their marine complements board it, clearing out the Victorian soldiers and making it so civilian vessels from Detroit can begin looting the vessel.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.

[X] Plan "Show the world that Americans can defeat Victoria"
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Retreat across the river and blow it now. Clever tactics are not worth the risk of the Victorians managing to seize and hold the bridge.
-[X] The Navy will remain, and continue to provide artillery cover over Monroe. You could use it to slow down the Vicks.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.
 
So, the real military anvil being dropped in the book in terms of leadership and officers for 4th-Gen War is: "general staff planning is bad, unless it's me doing it, in which case it should be done as much as possible."?
Nothing even so coherent. It's more that he insists the first thing is what he's doing, and then completely fails to demonstrate that in the text.
 
The book largely supports this; while there are a few instances where Lind makes a point of praising extremely minor commanders for saying, "fuck the plan," and having a disproportionate impact, overall it reads like Rumford's beautiful setpiece engagements being executed par excellence.
Well, there are two explanations for that in the context of Victoria being a budding totalitarian dictatorship that was steadily consolidating under Rumford's radical faction at the time he took charge.

One explanation is that Rumford had the charisma to keep most of his subcommands following the plan most of the time, or at least clearly consenting to Rumford's objectives FOR the plan. This would actually make Victorian doctrine more capable of sticking to plans and holding to a stable course of action. Like a stereotypical 'barbarian horde,' it works better if the leader figure is capable of 'uniting the tribes' rather than having leadership dispersed among a bunch of bickering chieftains.

The other explanation is that Rumford, leader of the extremist Christian Marine faction, systematically wrote OUT of his memoirs any Victorian commanders who didn't follow his plans and ideas, choosing to pretend that everything was a product of his own masterful genius. The version of history we read in Victoria's memoirs is very much the CMC-approved version of events. It's entirely possible that there were other commanders fighting for the Northern Confederation who adopted tactics different from Victoria's, or who dissented from some of Rumford's ideas, or who were personal rivals of Rumford's. But just as Stalin systematically did everything in his power to go all The Commissar Vanishes on pictures previously taken of him with those he later "un-personed" and purged, Rumford may well have been trying to write all his defeated political enemies out of the history books.

...

In the latter case, it would actually explain why there's such a disconnect between what is told and what is shown in the text. In reality, a generation of Victorian military leaders (many of whom were alt-righters with prior US military training) were actually rather effective at independent use of the initiative, because they knew what they were doing. Even if they evolved a military subculture far inferior to the greater military out of whose corpse they sprouted, they had at some point drunk some nutritious thing, not just a steady diet of retroculture and 4GW Kool-Aid.

But many of those military leaders clashed with Rumford and so were erased from history after the CMC purges.

So Rumford accurately tells us something consistent with the first-generation Victorian army field manuals: "initiative uber alley." But then he shows something different, because what he shows us is heavily falsified and retconned, a version of events calculated to make Rumford look like a military super-genius and anyone else who ever argued with him look like literally nothing and nobody.

...

One of the advantages of retroculture for a totalitarian state is that without Internet, it's easier to make sure you've edited all the copies of any given picture or text. Or to take 2030s-vintage originals (very probably taken on digital cameras and such, even among retroculturists) and systematically edit people out of them, then destroy the originals as "forbidden technology" and force everyone to use the doctored printouts.

The river gives the first line of defenders some cushion room as far as weathering a breakthrough is concerned, so we can afford to conserve the strength of the BRO. Using the bridge as bait to lure more Viks into a killzone without the risks associated with using it as an IED by waiting for them to actually be on it. Also, the possibility of being able to instantly arm multiple new divisions is tantalizing, and worth the delay in naval fire support. I think we're all unanimous on the question of the journalists/observers.
The problem is that it's quite possible that the CMC will do something Victorian like plan an attack where most of their amphibious IFVs try to force a crossing ten or twenty miles upriver from Monroe in an attempt to draw off our reserves, while a good-sized force in small boats gathered from Toledo and the surrounding area lands them ashore close to the north side of the I-75 bridge, in an attempt to secure it before it can be blown.

Then they rationalize this as 'feinting' with their 'clumsy armor' while the real heroes seize the bridge and let the bulk of the army across of course.

As long as the bridge stands, the Victorians have at least a slim chance of using their initiative to force a sudden change of situation on us. I'd want the Navy around to react to such a change of situation. Conversely, if we're sending the Navy away, I'd rather just blow up the bridge entirely and force the Victorians to find another way across.

On the other hand, I'm not too busted up about it if we don't even want to risk making the approach to the bridge a bait-and-switch. Also, isn't Yummy Loot identical to Plan Random?
Yeah but I thought of it first so :p

[Seriously yes, @Random Member did come up with an identical plan I think, or at least identical except for the reporter vote that wasn't available when I crafted the plan ]
 
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Hey guys, remember when we were talking about the possibility of the Victorians trying to resupply the Leamington landing force by the land route?

Well, some info on that from Discord:
The supply convoy actually set out today. The Vicks went with the, "bankrupt Buffalo," route. The militia is currently setting off, overland, through terrain that is getting increasingly-plausible reports of five full Victorian divisions being fucking annihilated on the outskirts of Detroit.

Oh, and they're towing a massive supply train which is going to put Buffalo's economy into a death spiral.

They're using whatever transportation they could requisition, which makes the regular army's stuff look standardized.

The locals are all pretty heavily armed on an individual basis. Everybody fields a militia. There are even some polities that have regular forces. Getting past Toronto's going to be fun.
 
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Hey guys, remember when we were talking about the possibility of the Victorians trying to resupply the Leamington landing force by the land route?

Well, some info on that from Discord:
Interesting.

Of course, the Victorians may well turn that relief column right around rather than try to keep pushing it overland, once they realize that the army they're trying to rescue no longer exists. :p
 
Oh wow, the Vics are going to lose shitloads of that attempted resupply. If not outright be forced to turn back after receiving a death of a thousand cuts.
 
...Wait. The fuck. Plan Hold the Course I put up before voting started had blowing up the bridge immediately as part of it.

@Rockeye don't go appropriating others' plan names please. :(
Wops. So what happened is, I copied your plan into my draft window, got distracted by something else for a while, then came back and read the accepted write-in of blowing the bridge when the Victorians are in sight of it, changed the plan in my draft window (which I had completely forgotten was not mine made from scratch) to reflect that, and posted.

Probably more trouble than it's worth to try and change plan hold the course's name now, tho.
 
Oh wow, the Vics are going to lose shitloads of that attempted resupply. If not outright be forced to turn back after receiving a death of a thousand cuts.
Or. Or.

Just to bear in mind.

They might not do the stupidest possible thing.

They might use their aircraft (maybe even operating out of Buffalo) to do overflights of Essex County. Then they realize that not only are they unable to raise radio contact with their eastern army, but that it's gone. It's been freaking deleted. There are now no signs of any significant military forces being in action in the theater anywhere near the towns of Leamington or Essex, and the only thing that happens when you poke around with a plane near Windsor is that some fucker in the city takes a pot-shot at you with a missile launcher.

And then they might turn their relief column around rather than continue eating the expenses and troubles associated with sending a care package to an army that no longer exists. Probably while telling the troops IN the relief column "nah, it's good, we cool, we got supplies to them another way."

I'm not saying they will do the smart thing, but they could.

While it's reasonable for us to gamble on the Victorians being self-destructively stupid because of the confines of their ideology, that doesn't mean they're going to mindlessly swarm into deadly situations like savage animals. Remember that the eastern army was going to dig in at Essex and essentially leave us alone if we hadn't launched a counterattack- this is a good example. Many of us expected them to attack yet again and completely shatter themselves against the Windsor Line, but it was not to be... because while the Victorians are ideologues and ignorant, they're not fools.
 
[x] Allow them both to observe.

I think most of the military plans are ok, so I have no preference.

But allowing journalists and foreign observers could help greatly in getting rid of the bad neighbour malus, so I want a plan including it.

(though there's a risk, if we do badly military it might worsen our reputation, but I think it's worth the risk)
 
Interesting.

Of course, the Victorians may well turn that relief column right around rather than try to keep pushing it overland, once they realize that the army they're trying to rescue no longer exists. :p
Got confirmation that the Victorian convoy will probably turn back. Eventually. Might be some purging (or commanders delaying the information in fear of the purging) first, but they'll probably get word to the convoy to head back home. Though just mobilizing it will still have ruined Buffalo economically.

Also the convoy's pretty likely to turn back once they actually get word of their troops' deaths. There'll be a delay -- Victorian High Command has to know that communicating that they've outright lost five divisions is going to mean purge time -- but they'll get word eventually.
 
[x] Plan Hold the Course
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Wait to blow the bridge until Victorians are in sight of it.
-[X] The Navy will withdraw from Monroe; you don't think you need them. Instead, they will go to that grounded laker ship and have their marine complements board it, clearing out the Victorian soldiers and making it so civilian vessels from Detroit can begin looting the vessel.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.

Time to go with the nice and conservative plan, and one that gets us a good bit of loot.
 
The problem is that it's quite possible that the CMC will do something Victorian like plan an attack where most of their amphibious IFVs try to force a crossing ten or twenty miles upriver from Monroe in an attempt to draw off our reserves, while a good-sized force in small boats gathered from Toledo and the surrounding area lands them ashore close to the north side of the I-75 bridge, in an attempt to secure it before it can be blown.

Then they rationalize this as 'feinting' with their 'clumsy armor' while the real heroes seize the bridge and let the bulk of the army across of course.

As long as the bridge stands, the Victorians have at least a slim chance of using their initiative to force a sudden change of situation on us. I'd want the Navy around to react to such a change of situation. Conversely, if we're sending the Navy away, I'd rather just blow up the bridge entirely and force the Victorians to find another way across.
The idea between my write-in is that there are constant lookouts in Monroe, and if any Viks are sighted near the bridge, boom. Would require critfail on perception check for them to secure it. So, not quite a sure thing, but unlikely to fail.

Also, I was looking at the 3D view of the bridge in Google Maps, and the flat area below the bridge on the southern bank looks like it would be very lonely without a minefield. (Also, burying charges along the causeway/bridge across Tamarack Creek sounds like something an engineer corps would have a great deal of fun doing, if also a bit below the granularity of the quest.)
 
[X] Plan Yummy Loot
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Retreat across the river and blow it now. Clever tactics are not worth the risk of the Victorians managing to seize and hold the bridge.
-[X] The Navy will withdraw from Monroe; you don't think you need them. Instead, they will go to that grounded laker ship and have their marine complements board it, clearing out the Victorian soldiers and making it so civilian vessels from Detroit can begin looting the vessel.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.
 
[X] Monroe tanks, Monroe problems
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Wait to blow the bridge until Victorians are in sight of it.
-[X] The Navy will remain, and continue to provide artillery cover over Monroe. You could use it to slow down the Vicks.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.

[X] Plan "Show the world that Americans can defeat Victoria"
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Retreat across the river and blow it now. Clever tactics are not worth the risk of the Victorians managing to seize and hold the bridge.
-[X] The Navy will remain, and continue to provide artillery cover over Monroe. You could use it to slow down the Vicks.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.
 
[X] Monroe tanks, Monroe problems
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Wait to blow the bridge until Victorians are in sight of it.
-[X] The Navy will remain, and continue to provide artillery cover over Monroe. You could use it to slow down the Vicks.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.

[X] Plan "Show the world that Americans can defeat Victoria"
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Retreat across the river and blow it now. Clever tactics are not worth the risk of the Victorians managing to seize and hold the bridge.
-[X] The Navy will remain, and continue to provide artillery cover over Monroe. You could use it to slow down the Vicks.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.
 
Basically, we dangle the bridge as bait, and we can safely rely on the Vickies' not having the restraint to not use the bridge. (BTRs are amphibious, but they're not great at it, and any river crossing against opposition is a nightmare even with nominally amphib vehicles.) Even if they somehow do refuse the bait, that leaves us no poorer but a little demo charges, and we can disarm them and use the bridge ourselves if desired in a counterattack. (If the Vickies do ignore the bridge, it will be a likely shock to them when the bridge they've labeled 'unsuable' in their heads turns out to only be so for them.)
Problem I see though is the quality of the troops who are supposed to execute this.
Our divisions, besides the Devil Brigade's 5/5, are all Quality 1/5.
The Vic regulars are Quality 2/5 across the board, and the CMC are Quality 3/5.

If our guys are fresh out of boot camp recruits, the Vics are seasoned National Guard and the CMC are Army regulars in their second term of enlistment. There's entirely too high a risk of a fumble if we make plans with tight margins.
If you wanna throw Quality 1 troops with no training in boarding operations, boat technicals as their fire support, and rowboats as their landing craft at the cargo ship, be my guest. Personally, I advise the Quality 2 marines who have years of experience in anti-piracy and boarding roles and have purpose-built landing craft, supported by twenty-two 20mm autocannons.

When I called for designs, I made sure to specify that the Des Plaines should have sealift capacity adequate for small-scale amphibious assault. It's in there; I simply imagine that the marines whose job in no way interfaces with the operation of the ship are not included in the crew count.
Fiiiiiine.
Wow, they'd have to have some courage to show up here. (Not any who've admitted it, but that's the sort of thing they'd conceal.)
Government representatives? No.
Press? Yes. Definitely. The West sent journalists into Taliban territory in both Pakistan and Afghanistan, and still does. None but the most mad dog nationstates or NGOs openly kill journalists. Restrict, expel, detain, occasionally hold indefinitely. Not kill.

Its a mark of the depths of Victoria's international rep that no international journos show up for their things.
Even for a war of this magnitude, which would make careers.

■■■■■■■■■
Anyway, vote.

[X] Plan Yummy Loot
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Retreat across the river and blow it now. Clever tactics are not worth the risk of the Victorians managing to seize and hold the bridge.
-[X] The Navy will withdraw from Monroe; you don't think you need them. Instead, they will go to that grounded laker ship and have their marine complements board it, clearing out the Victorian soldiers and making it so civilian vessels from Detroit can begin looting the vessel.
-[X] Allow them both to observe

Nice and conservative.
This is not the place to be clever. Not with Quality 1 troops against Quality 2 and 3 troops that outnumber us 2 to 1 and have two armored divisions on hand.

Plus loot. 80,000 tons of military supplies.
We have no reliable international supply of arms and ammunition. No port to the outside world yet.
So we really should steal this right now.

If we're quick we might even use their supplies against them. If not we can equip around 5 divisions out of that shit.
Professionals Study Logistics.
 
PS
Those of you who voted for multiple plans should note that the vote tally is reading your apptoval voting as as one big plan.
Maybe you didn't put enough space between your plans?
 
[X] Plan Yummy Loot
-[X] As a reaction force to counter any dangerous crossings, most especially in terms of Victorian armor.
-[X] Yes. You have confirmed some mission kills on Victorian armor, but you haven't eliminated them as a force. You needs the Abrams tanks in place.
-[X] Retreat across the river and blow it now. Clever tactics are not worth the risk of the Victorians managing to seize and hold the bridge.
-[X] The Navy will withdraw from Monroe; you don't think you need them. Instead, they will go to that grounded laker ship and have their marine complements board it, clearing out the Victorian soldiers and making it so civilian vessels from Detroit can begin looting the vessel.
-[X] Allow them both to observe.
 
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