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Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

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[x] Set up and Stick in

[X] Turtle Fortress: Express Zhengui and work together to reinforce your position, stacking defenses and area-of-effect debuffs to make ourselves unassailable. If we can sustain an inviolable core, Chu Song will only weaken over time, letting us take her down at our leisure.
 
Humbaba said:
Can someone opposing shadows explain why they feel Qi is a concern?

With our equipment literally the most we'll pay is 2 Qi on turn one and 1 per turn thereafter to reduce the light levels. and given we'll start setting up the most for attacking I don't really see that being a long term problem.
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Well, I personally believe that while Qi is not a concern per se (we probably outclass Chu Song enough to win even with a bad strategy, though it worries me) it's still inefficient. @yrsillar, you would have told us if Ling Qi noticed Chu Song was appraisal right?

Beginning on the fist turn with OwS+GCD+OtW+Twilight Beauty Means using 4+3+4+1 Qi in the first turn (12Qi) while disengaging from combat, meaning we probably won't get Qi regain. From then on, there is the choice between using all our instant defensives techs while trying to stay stealth far enough we can set up either an ambush or a perimeter (the actual vote is not actually setting up our perimtre, just an ambush) and not doing so.

If we do set up our defensive techs, this probably means having to use 2-3Qi/turns (depending on whether we need to continue using Twilight Beauty), but if we don't, it means that we can get a Chu Song in our face bashing our head in at any time.

So basically, shadow plan more or less either decide to gamble Chu Song can't bash our head in while we don't have most of our defensive suit, or else decide to begin our 'ambush' when we are ourself maybe at half Qi.

Considering we don't actually gain anything by doing said ambush combat-wise, this is more or less deciding to throw away half our Qi for no reason.

EDIT: Oooor... we could use a pill before the ambush. Still need us to actually never get seen and be able to have enough time to set up said ambush, so a gamble that doesn't give us anything, but at least there is an 'out' for the Qi.
 
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Humbaba said:
Can someone opposing shadows explain why they feel Qi is a concern?

With our equipment literally the most we'll pay is 2 Qi on turn one and 1 per turn thereafter to reduce the light levels. and given we'll start setting up the most for attacking I don't really see that being a long term problem.

Edit. Oh wait OWS. So 3 Qi.
Oh and forgot to vote.

[X] Alectai
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If she is a peer that qi and those actions are going to count. If she is not, simply throwing FVM will ensure our victory and we are throwing away time and qi for no reason.
 
[X] Turtle Fortress: Express Zhengui and work together to reinforce your position, stacking defenses and area-of-effect debuffs to make ourselves unassailable. If we can sustain an inviolable core, Chu Song will only weaken over time, letting us take her down at our leisure.

[X] Set up and Stick in
 
Tarroyn said:
Yanmei reached Cyan by 22. We are projected to reach Cyan by 20 or so. By our estimates Ji Rong should be more talented than Yanmei. He'd likely be considered more genius were he not both in our year and an enemy of Cai's order, which set him back a few times.
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I'm pretty sure yrsillar said we won't reach Cyan before 20, not that we'll get there by 20. We have no reason to believe ourselves, or Ji Rong, more talented than Yanmei.

I'd also say that Ducal families don't particularly care about those on our level. Any interest Shenhua shows in us is because Renxiang has to prove herself by forming a stable faction. The uniqueness of this position and opportunity was the driving force for joining up with Cai, now.

Liling isn't being tested in the same way, as far as we can see, and the Sun already have loyal and powerful subordinates. They have no reason to scout children who haven't proven they can maintain their relevance without burning out. We have no reason to call Ji Rong a vassal when he could still end up staying with the Sect.
 
veekie said:
-Cai Shenhua(and anyone who isn't blind) figures out that Sun Shao and the Sect skewed the match more than is reasonable to eliminate Gan.
--This is a great time to both get an ally which complements the Cai weaknesses as a new Duke by allying with the oldest Ducal clan.
--This is a great time to flip Sun Shao the bird for the insult he had shown her by dunking so hard on the Cai vassals in the prelims.
--This is a great time to slap the Sect on the wrist by denying them their big exhibition match that'd overawe the rest of the tournament.
--This is a great time to show people why you shouldn't cross a White in her own damned territory.
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I am exceedingly doubtful that the Cai-Bai alliance was in ANY WAY motivated by something happening to Gan. The scopes just don't line up. Such an alliance carries massive cost and equally massive benefits; a schoolhouse tussle wasn't going to be enough to budge the scales at all from whichever way the Dutchess decided they leaned.

On the other hand, it is reasonable to suspect that the manner and style of the reveal was done in a way that also struck back against the slight slight that e matchups presented. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the Dutchess set things up with the INTENT to be slighted so she could respond with overwhelming force by revealing the alliance which she had long decided on.
 
[X] Turtle Fortress: Express Zhengui and work together to reinforce your position, stacking defenses and area-of-effect debuffs to make ourselves unassailable. If we can sustain an inviolable core, Chu Song will only weaken over time, letting us take her down at our leisure.

[x] Set up and Stick in
 
Personally, I feel that the workings of the Cai and Bai alliance started over a year ago. I mean, the niece of the heir of the Bai and the daughter of Duchess Cai go to the same sect which provides the perfect excuse for both Cai and Bai to be in the same place at the same time to finalize the beginnings of an alliance. I believe that this has been going on for a while now and the fruits are just beginning to be publically revealed.
 
[X] Turtle Fortress: Express Zhengui and work together to reinforce your position, stacking defenses and area-of-effect debuffs to make ourselves unassailable. If we can sustain an inviolable core, Chu Song will only weaken over time, letting us take her down at our leisure.

[x] Set up and Stick in
 
Thor's Twin said:
Personally, I feel that the workings of the Cai and Bai alliance started over a year ago. I mean, the niece of the heir of the Bai and the daughter of Duchess Cai go to the same sect which provides the perfect excuse for both Cai and Bai to be in the same place at the same time to finalize the beginnings of an alliance. I believe that this has been going on for a while now and the fruits are just beginning to be publically revealed.
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this would also give @yrsillar an out as to the explanation on why these prestegious daughters (sun included) were in the same sect.

A supposedly secret start to talks of alliance was overheard by the Suns, and they decided to also send a contender to, if not stop the alliance, then show the superiority of the Suns (which is failing).
 
Hrm.

I still haven't really gotten a good reason for "Tank Chu Song with your face because she can't hurt us and do whatever we want" as being a desirable state of mind. I will admit that I can recognize "We might not get a good ambush" as a concern, but Shadows does fail gracefully into effectively what the other plans are.

For the most part, the arguments seem to be "The entire plan doesn't revolve around Zhengui, and thus it's the worst plan". When the only thing we saw was that we actually use him, not that we have to make him the centerpiece of the battle, and Shadows brings him in with the actual engagement--just that we attempt to get some distance to set up a perfect battlespace first, rather than have to set up our battlespace while she's in our face.

I mean, she's far more likely to be threatening to us if we effectively just stand in front of her and ignore her attempts to hurt us then trying to fish for a backstab opener, but I don't see people being worried she might actually have some nasty tricks if we let her stay in melee?
 
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[X] Turtle Fortress: Express Zhengui and work together to reinforce your position, stacking defenses and area-of-effect debuffs to make ourselves unassailable. If we can sustain an inviolable core, Chu Song will only weaken over time, letting us take her down at our leisure.

[x] Set up and Stick in
 
[X] Turtle Fortress: Express Zhengui and work together to reinforce your position, stacking defenses and area-of-effect debuffs to make ourselves unassailable. If we can sustain an inviolable core, Chu Song will only weaken over time, letting us take her down at our leisure.
[x] Set up and Stick in
 
Alectai said:
I still haven't really gotten a good reason for "Tank Chu Song with your face because she can't hurt us and do whatever we want" as being a desirable state of mind. I will admit that I can recognize "We might not get a good ambush" as a concern, but Shadows does fail gracefully into effectively what the other plans are.
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Shadows fails with us being at least a turn behind in combat prep, possibly more. And we saw in the Ji Rong ambush just how devestating that single turn off prep can be.
 
[X] Turtle Fortress: Express Zhengui and work together to reinforce your position, stacking defenses and area-of-effect debuffs to make ourselves unassailable. If we can sustain an inviolable core, Chu Song will only weaken over time, letting us take her down at our leisure.
 
PrimalShadow said:
Shadows fails with us being at least a turn behind in combat prep, possibly more. And we saw in the Ji Rong ambush just how devestating that single turn off prep can be.
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Well, yeah, but if she's passively capable of beating what we can only pull off with a technique, then she probably had to make other sacrifices to do that, in which case, at least we know this now, that she was worried enough about us trying to do a stealth run that she designed her accessory and art suite around defeating it.

Because if she concedes the cat-and-mouse duel, then she loses the match, because we can wind up our hellstorm to full potential before battle is joined, at which point she's powerless to stop it. It forces her to react to us instead of just ceding the initiative because we had the arrogance to assume she can't stop us. Even if it's true, it's a bad habit to get into, because it's the kind of thing you only need to be wrong about once.

And hell, my opener still gives us a minimum of two Perfect Defense on top of our regular defenses--if there's a full turn where she doesn't know where Ling Qi is, it gets harder and harder to find her as she gets further away, and then we win because we have enough space to wind up in peace. More likely, she brought consumables or active techniques that can help her reacquire us, which she's now used to even the odds instead of just buffing herself through the stratosphere like you fear, and those aren't the same things that buff her offense.
 
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Alectai said:
Hrm.

I still haven't really gotten a good reason for "Tank Chu Song with your face because she can't hurt us and do whatever we want" as being a desirable state of mind. I will admit that I can recognize "We might not get a good ambush" as a concern, but Shadows does fail gracefully into effectively what the other plans are.
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It's qi-inefficient, doesn't play to the terrain, doesn't play to our strengths.
 
It's amazing how excited people get about stealth in combat whenever it's time to make tactics, and how completely unexcited they were over the past three months about getting a new stealth art instead of training things like Argent Storm.
 
Katreus said:
It's qi-inefficient, doesn't play to the terrain, doesn't play to our strengths.
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Uh, I can concede "Qi-inefficient on a failure" (I won't concede Qi-Inefficient on a success, because if we succeed like that, we are now able to set up whatever territory we want free of interruption), but the other two? Really?

I mean, technically. "Ignore the beatstick while we set up our territory" is playing to our tankiness (Even if it dismisses the fact that Chu Song was still capable of damaging Meizhen, and has had half a year to sharpen her offense further after finding out that she still wasn't brute force enough), but the other options straight up ignore the fact the terrain exists and tries to replace it with our own, while assuming Chu Song can't do anything to stop us while we're right in her face. I'm literally making use of the fact we've got scattered shadows everywhere to fuel our stealth run.
 
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Arkeus said:
Well, I personally believe that while Qi is not a concern per se (we probably outclass Chu Song enough to win even with a bad strategy, though it worries me) it's still inefficient. @yrsillar, you would have told us if Ling Qi noticed Chu Song was appraisal right?

Beginning on the fist turn with OwS+GCD+OtW+Twilight Beauty Means using 4+3+4+1 Qi in the first turn (12Qi) while disengaging from combat, meaning we probably won't get Qi regain. From then on, there is the choice between using all our instant defensives techs while trying to stay stealth far enough we can set up either an ambush or a perimeter (the actual vote is not actually setting up our perimtre, just an ambush) and not doing so.

If we do set up our defensive techs, this probably means having to use 2-3Qi/turns (depending on whether we need to continue using Twilight Beauty), but if we don't, it means that we can get a Chu Song in our face bashing our head in at any time.

So basically, shadow plan more or less either decide to gamble Chu Song can't bash our head in while we don't have most of our defensive suit, or else decide to begin our 'ambush' when we are ourself maybe at half Qi.

Considering we don't actually gain anything by doing said ambush combat-wise, this is more or less deciding to throw away half our Qi for no reason.

EDIT: Oooor... we could use a pill before the ambush. Still need us to actually never get seen and be able to have enough time to set up said ambush, so a gamble that doesn't give us anything, but at least there is an 'out' for the Qi.
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Your calculations seem significantly off. GCD and OWS only cost one each -3 gown -3 anchor -3 flute to a minimum of 1. (Weapon price reductions are not noted to be limited to only to attacks through them, unlike their offensive bonuses.

OTW is never even mentioned in the plan, but costs 7 -3 (gown) and possibly - another 3 (petal blades are noted as equipped, although you could argue that you can't have them and flute working simultaneously. So even with the addition of OTW we're using a maximum of 7.

We'll still be in combat time so I see no reason our flower won't work. You also seem to assume that Chu Song can catch an ungodly fast Ling Qi who is intent on disengagement whilst still able to use her full offensive techniques (I.e. not dashing).

Our stealth is good enough in low light that Chu Song would want a perception boost to reliably beat it. Then we should have a turn or two to set up our buffs andZhengu for an ambush while she searches for us.

You're acting like Chu Song is much better in every area than she should be, whilst insisting that the defensive buffs we can get up in a turn whilst remaining in range will totally beat her in her first strike speciality. It's contradictory.
 
Humbaba said:
Your calculations seem significantly off. GCD and OWS only cost one each -3 gown -3 anchor -3 flute to a minimum of 1. (Weapon price reductions are not noted to be limited to only to attacks through them, unlike their offensive bonuses.
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Your information is unfortunately outdated. There is a maximum qi reduction of 6 on any given tech.

yrsillar said:
Okay Clarifying since my statement didn't say what wanted. +4 is the maximum value you can add to a single clash with accessories. So if you have 2 +3 attack accessories, you still only get +4 on your actual clash.

I should probably cap qi reduction as well... lets say no more than -6 qi on a single tech.
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[X] Turtle Fortress: Express Zhengui and work together to reinforce your position, stacking defenses and area-of-effect debuffs to make ourselves unassailable. If we can sustain an inviolable core, Chu Song will only weaken over time, letting us take her down at our leisure.

[x] Set up and Stick in

Approval voting to try and max the chances that we don't open our fight by fleeing ineffectively from Chu freaking Song. We aren't particularly great at stealth and we don't get a huge payoff from being stealthed. We are great at tanking and we are great at trapping people in the mist and beating them down.

This is our last chance to really flaunt our tankiness. Also, I would like to make the point that if somebody stands within 100 meters of us they need to start running from our mist more than we need to start running from their fists.
 
Alectai said:
Hrm.

I still haven't really gotten a good reason for "Tank Chu Song with your face because she can't hurt us and do whatever we want" as being a desirable state of mind. I will admit that I can recognize "We might not get a good ambush" as a concern, but Shadows does fail gracefully into effectively what the other plans are.

For the most part, the arguments seem to be "The entire plan doesn't revolve around Zhengui, and thus it's the worst plan". When the only thing we saw was that we actually use him, not that we have to make him the centerpiece of the battle, and Shadows brings him in with the actual engagement--just that we attempt to get some distance to set up a perfect battlespace first, rather than have to set up our battlespace while she's in our face.

I mean, she's far more likely to be threatening to us if we effectively just stand in front of her and ignore her attempts to hurt us then trying to fish for a backstab opener, but I don't see people being worried she might actually have some nasty tricks if we let her stay in melee?
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Yes, I suppose if you ignore every other arguments, you can say that most arguments revolve around zhengui being an after tought.

Also fail gracefully ? After according to arkeus losing half our qi ?
 
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