Mechanically, illusions detections are a perception test. So for your avowed goal, the reroll is simply better.
Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
Mechanically, illusions detections are a perception test. So for your avowed goal, the reroll is simply better.
DeAnno
Sometimes words have two meanings
I am not particularly enamored of the argument that everything we do must tie in with 110% allegiance to the home concept, to the point that we pick things just because they give an ally buff without much thinking about what it is they do. The idea of Illusions being connected to Spirits is an aesthetic one, partially based on Spirits not having physical form. The Spooky extra-mystical feel of illusions also contributes to my thoughts there.
Also, I am not really swayed by various mechanical arguments about the reroll being better. I think the aesthetics of the thing are much more important, considering that the mechanics will be toned down in the future. Also, one could argue that if die bonuses scale, number of rerolls should not, since they already scale automatically with dice pools.
I am much more swayed by the idea of a unified domain of perception, though I would argue either AM ability fits that fairly well (though the other one of course does it better.) I may yet change my mind based on this logic, but I don't think either choice bars this path.
Also, I am not really swayed by various mechanical arguments about the reroll being better. I think the aesthetics of the thing are much more important, considering that the mechanics will be toned down in the future. Also, one could argue that if die bonuses scale, number of rerolls should not, since they already scale automatically with dice pools.
I am much more swayed by the idea of a unified domain of perception, though I would argue either AM ability fits that fairly well (though the other one of course does it better.) I may yet change my mind based on this logic, but I don't think either choice bars this path.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Frankly.
Our Domain is too young for us to be able to pigeonhole it into One True Form or not. It gains definition as we add to it--and we haven't even gotten to the three "Definite Yes" that we plan to slot in--and won't until the reworking anyway.
The Lesson of the Argent Mirror is a good one, that helps no matter what you're trying to do (At least barring a Domain that's all about self deception and changing yourself s needed at all costs.). The specific manifestation probably is less important than the lesson.
Which is probably why "Yes" and "No" are the two actual questions here. If the specific manifestation of the Lesson of the Argent Mirror had a major impact on the Domain's progression, I suspect that they would actually be considered two separate choices.
Our Domain is too young for us to be able to pigeonhole it into One True Form or not. It gains definition as we add to it--and we haven't even gotten to the three "Definite Yes" that we plan to slot in--and won't until the reworking anyway.
The Lesson of the Argent Mirror is a good one, that helps no matter what you're trying to do (At least barring a Domain that's all about self deception and changing yourself s needed at all costs.). The specific manifestation probably is less important than the lesson.
Which is probably why "Yes" and "No" are the two actual questions here. If the specific manifestation of the Lesson of the Argent Mirror had a major impact on the Domain's progression, I suspect that they would actually be considered two separate choices.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
I do agree we shouldn't be putting AM in the domain because, well, it doesn't fit us at all, and it might force us to improve our domain in ways that are unhealthy for Ling Qi.
However, I would like a clarification here. You say you aren't a fan of picking things without much thinking about what they do but you also don't want to think about the mechanics being important. So you apparently don't want to strategically choose the one that helps allies over the one that helps the self only because you dislike the idea of prioritising narrative over mechanics and you dislike helping allies seeing through things, but you also want to ignore the mechanic implication of the vote?
Am I missing something, or are you just saying "I don't want to consider any of the things that makes this option look better because the option is not what I consider cool?"
Also "unified domain of perception" is really not what Ling Qi is about. Suyin is about perception. Su Ling is about perception. Ling Qi... isn't. You might make an argument that she might be about clouding other people's perception, but that has nothing to do with personal perception, no matter the extreme leaps of logic one might want to do.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
You're doing that infuriating thing you do where you assume that you know the character better than everyone else.
Please don't do that anymore.
"I don't agree we should be putting AM in the domain as I don't like the lesson it's trying to teach" would be fine, everyone's entitled to their own belief--and this is a subjective vote here. "It doesn't fit us at all and it might force us to fuck our domain" is you assuming that your own opinion on a subjective choice is objectively correct and that if people don't heed your advice, it'll lead to DOOM.
Like, you're not even having the decency to qualify it with "I think this doesn't fit us at all". You're treating "It doesn't fit us at all" as a fact rather than your personal opinion, and leading the rest from there.
The very fact that plenty of people here have quantified why they believe it actually does fit sort of already puts the lie to your statement of "This doesn't fit us at all." Plenty of people disagree and have explained why they think it fits.
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DeAnno
Sometimes words have two meanings
That is exactly what I'm saying. I chose the one I thought made for a cooler Ling Qi for almost completely aesthetic reasons. I don't particularly think AM belongs in the domain strategically or mechanically, barring a Perception Domain (that would at least fit our Arts, even if fitting our personality is more of a stretch). Lacking such motivations, I simply wanted to fold AM into the Domain encouraging it to be cool and slide into themes that I liked more.
So basically, I voted for the prettier of two choices I didn't like much. And I'm not even particularly confident in that vote, but people whining about how we need to focus everything on pure support isn't going to be what changes my mind.
We have wog that both scales.
Secondly the reroll being mechanically greater is because it's more focused. It's going to stay better against illusions regardless of how mechanics change. Because of its focus.
If you prefer, one is about seeing everything while the other is about seeing the truth.
Given that the spirits we are going to talk with are spirit of change (moon) seeing the truth is significantly less interesting than seeing everything, as what is the truth right now might not be in even a minute.
The mechanics are just a nice wrapper. But for defense against ennemy illusions, the reroll is better because it help exclusively perception. It's focused so it's stronger.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
So you are saying that... you don't agree with me? Like I don't agree that it fits Ling Qi? Gee, how dare I say that I believe it doesn't fit Ling Qi. What an horrible thing to have an opinion. I guess anyone who doesn't agree with you are DOOMSAYERS as always, huh?
Ah, fair enough. If you believe that both choices are equally bad for the domain, going for the one that sounds cooler does make sense.
We don't. We have WoG that both scales if it fits the domain that will grow as Ling Qi develops.
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- Location
- Internet, The
In addition to @Tisaku's corrections:
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi and Allies of at least four dots positive relation within one hundred meters may reroll a failed perception test once per combat or scene.
Fluffwise, I want Ling Qi's home to be somewhere where everyone can be themselves.
double "against the"
scout's
place's
cousin's
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi and Allies of at least four dots positive relation within one hundred meters may reroll a failed perception test once per combat or scene.
Fluffwise, I want Ling Qi's home to be somewhere where everyone can be themselves.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
No, I'm not saying anyone who disagrees with me is a doomsayer, I'm saying you are acting like one, and I pointed out exactly why using the post you threw out just then.
I'm perfectly fine with people disagreeing with me, especially on a subjective vote like this (And this vote is one hundred percent subjective. Full stop. Slotting AM is not something that'll impair any other plan outside of pie-in-the-sky. "I'm sure something even better that tells this lesson even better" hopes, so whether we take it or not is entirely dependent on "Do you think the Lesson of the Argent Mirror is a good one that you want to take with you into the future" or not.). I'm less fine with people standing like their opinion is actual fact, and then using that opinion to justify a remark on how going down this route might ruin our character.
Which is exactly what you said?
Arkeus said:
So please, tell me how calling you out on using a poor form of rhetoric turns into "Anyone who disagrees with me is a doomsayer!"
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Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
Like this:
I haven't talked about any doom at all. I said it didn't fit us. I have said nothing about how it would ruin our character. I said it could develop in ways that are unhealthy for Ling Qi, which is very diffferent.You are the one saying all those things.Alectai said:
You are the one who spent the last ten pages saying that anyone who considered not getting AM slotted was for "pie in the sky bonus" and using rethoric to pretend they were making arguments they weren't making.
Basically, yes, you have been using said rethoric to say that any argument against slotting AM is DOOMSAYING and insisting on framing the argument in a way to dismiss any arguments you dislike. I haven't done any of those things.
@Alectai knock it off. Saying the Art is a bad fit for Ling Qi's domain because perception/AM doesn't fit Ling Qi at all isn't any more invalid than saying it's a good fit for Ling Qi's domain because perception/AM totally fits Ling Qi. You're literally objecting to someone's subjective opinion while justifying yourself with the subjective nature of the subject matter.
Look in an Argent Mirror for a second and take a step back. Engage his points, don't just attack @Arkeus because you have a history of disagreement. Your argument boils down to "It's him saying it."
Look in an Argent Mirror for a second and take a step back. Engage his points, don't just attack @Arkeus because you have a history of disagreement. Your argument boils down to "It's him saying it."
Honestly, I don't think slotting AM is a big deal here. It's "alright", though not great. It probably won't be a problem if we have it - it also wouldn't really cost us anything if we didn't take it.
I feel that a lot of the strong feelings here are, to some degree, reflective of a deeper issue. This vote is a proxy. And to many, the question it's asking is "can the thread be trusted not to jump on the first shiny marshmellow put in front of it?"
It's not necessarily that AM is the worst thing ever - it's the fear that if the thread can't get a hold of itself and demonstrate some restraint now, the next thing you know it'll be jumping all over slotting AS into our Domain as well.
Honestly, the timing is mostly just annoying here. It would be much more convenient if we could put off all our Domain decisions until we've had time to do the research next year, and work out our full comprehensive Green build and where we're going.
I feel that a lot of the strong feelings here are, to some degree, reflective of a deeper issue. This vote is a proxy. And to many, the question it's asking is "can the thread be trusted not to jump on the first shiny marshmellow put in front of it?"
It's not necessarily that AM is the worst thing ever - it's the fear that if the thread can't get a hold of itself and demonstrate some restraint now, the next thing you know it'll be jumping all over slotting AS into our Domain as well.
Honestly, the timing is mostly just annoying here. It would be much more convenient if we could put off all our Domain decisions until we've had time to do the research next year, and work out our full comprehensive Green build and where we're going.
DeAnno
Sometimes words have two meanings
Let's just say that this massive tide of Yes votes is making me a little leery of finishing AC and AS before we finish FVM and SCS (happily, we can still train a whole extra level of SCS in CL 7). Maybe if there aren't as many open slots staring the thread in the face it'll be a bit more cautious...
Stab yourself in the heart for power.
The answer to wether SV will be willing to hold back on snatching defeat from the jaw of victory has been answered some times ago.
Expecting us to not jump head first on the shiny is something of a doomed proposition.
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I think that's a bit unfair. Several people in this thread had mentioned even a couple weeks ago that they would be very interested in AM, citing the appeal of self-knowlege and self-reflection, and not AC or AS.
Simply put, AM was always the least objectionable of the argent arts as far as domain slotting goes, and it being aytractive to internalize should not be a surprise.
I am a fan of argent arts in general, but despite that I certainly won't be voting for the inclusion of AC and AS.
Yes, I agree. I think (though it might just be wishful thinking), that AC and AS would get different receptions - because, as you say, of the previous discussion.
That being said, I don't think it can reasonably be argued that the thread has given much reason to believe in its ability to restrain itself, because it never has.
In a way, that's part of the concern. To a degree it feels like people are voting for AM because it was the preordained "safe Argent"/first Art up for Domain consideration, rather than a decision made after deep consideration of the presented options and the long-term ramifications inherent to any Domain art-slotting. Broad strokes plans are important, but that inevitably seems to lead to a dearth of, well, hesitation is the best word I can think of at the moment. Caution, I suppose. It's easy to be excited about an option in the abstract, but the immediate is best maneuvered with a dash of skepticism, of reflection.
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
Since it seems like AM is going to win we should start talking about what domain we can create with it. Unless we have a solid game plan moving forward we will get a confused domain.
I would argue against that. We don't know enough right now, and we don't really want to base all our future plans around this choice. AM is generically applicable enough that I doubt it's going to be a huge problem no matter what we do, and it's only one art anyway.
What we need to do next year is research how third realm and Domains work. Research what arts are available to us. Try to find successors for our favorites. And be very careful about what arts we master if we're aren't sure what we actually want.
Toying with ideas is fine, but we shouldn't overreach.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
Well, this is why it's not unfair to be worried. Having AM as the first art slotted in the domain does mean that there is a solid argument for tailoring future arts we put in the domain with AM in mind. This is doubly true with the choices we have. Some people are arguing we should have a 'gatekeeper' role where we act as the one protecting and spying on others to find out the truth, some others are saying we should instead try to have a 'home' where everyone invited in are made stronger. There are obviously other choices, too.
No matter what though, putting in AM is not 'neutral', especially as if we want AM's bonus to grow we need the rest of our domain to fit what we choose for AM. This is definitely easier if we choose the ally option as our domain naturally enhance allies, but if we are trying to make a mishmash of our domain then we might actually have to study and either chose to accept AM won't grow or chose our future arts we will slot to fit AM so that we can change what our domain is about to be a domain about AM first and foremost.
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
So the thing is that almost anything can be brought together to make a theme. It's not that hard. What I want to start talking about now is creating a plan for our domain. So we have this sort of goal to shot towards. People keep talking about a domain based on the idea of home. This idea is far to vague and doesn't help plan out a path. That is about as far as we got. What key words do we want? Meizhen went for the resolve keyword to create this amazing fear ability. Do we want to do something like that and focus on a key word? Or do we want to focus on effects like things that help the people around us? We don't even have an idea of what Ling Qi wants so of course the first thing that pops up people will take. There is no reason not to because there is no plan. This will happen every single time we finish an art unless we have something to point to. If we have a plan people can get behind these kinds of vote will be much smoother.
We should have started the plan the instant we learned about domains. Maybe we can get help in the inner sect and be lead by the hand into creating the domain. At the very least I want to present an idea for that tutor.
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