- Location
- Cyberspace
They're Ling Qi's backup chorus. Everyone needs a set of toothy worms singing barbershop in hats and bowties behind them; they just don't know it yet.
(just imagine them to be worms rather than barbershop poles)
Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
They're Ling Qi's backup chorus. Everyone needs a set of toothy worms singing barbershop in hats and bowties behind them; they just don't know it yet.
(just imagine them to be worms rather than barbershop poles)
I'd like to point out something I've only seen mentioned a bit and not discussed. This is very much an Externalize vs Internalize choice. We know that domains can be used two ways, they can project the cultivator's self into the world, like spirits do/are, or they can be turned inwards to strengthen the cultivator themselves, which is more akin to a spirit beast. An example of a cultivator who went far into the externalize choices would be Elder Jiao. An example of the internalize would be Elder Zhou.
That exactly follows the choice we're offered. We can externalize this realization, turn it into part of the self we project into the world, or we can internalize it, turn it inwards, strengthen the self we keep within. Spirit or Spirit Beast. Jiao or Zhou.
The problem is that if you look at our arts, we're going very strong for externalize. Our arts are all about projecting our qi outwards, of changing the world by imposing our self on it, whether it's to someone's benefit or detriment. Music is that almost by definition. We picked a domain choice that projected ourselves outward by default. I do not think it is viable to straddle these two, and in any event we don't have the arts needed to maintain a balance. Perhaps a dedicated disciple of the Argent Way could do so. We are not that. Perhaps if we had picked up a green stealth art or FSA+. We did not.
Since we are almost certainly on the spirit path, I feel it is a mistake to choose the other choice, even now. It will weaken us almost certainly.
Frankly, I would almost rather Yrs have had us just vote for [ ] Internalize This Realization or [ ] Externalize This Realization (or [ ] Discard This Realization I guess), without any mechanical guidance. After all, the mechanics are taking a backseat after the tournament anyway. But that this choice is strongly internalizing vs externalizing is very clear, both from the choice itself, from the art its based upon, and from how domains work in general.
I have other things to say about the narrative arguments, but that'll require a much longer post.
That exactly follows the choice we're offered. We can externalize this realization, turn it into part of the self we project into the world, or we can internalize it, turn it inwards, strengthen the self we keep within. Spirit or Spirit Beast. Jiao or Zhou.
The problem is that if you look at our arts, we're going very strong for externalize. Our arts are all about projecting our qi outwards, of changing the world by imposing our self on it, whether it's to someone's benefit or detriment. Music is that almost by definition. We picked a domain choice that projected ourselves outward by default. I do not think it is viable to straddle these two, and in any event we don't have the arts needed to maintain a balance. Perhaps a dedicated disciple of the Argent Way could do so. We are not that. Perhaps if we had picked up a green stealth art or FSA+. We did not.
Since we are almost certainly on the spirit path, I feel it is a mistake to choose the other choice, even now. It will weaken us almost certainly.
Frankly, I would almost rather Yrs have had us just vote for [ ] Internalize This Realization or [ ] Externalize This Realization (or [ ] Discard This Realization I guess), without any mechanical guidance. After all, the mechanics are taking a backseat after the tournament anyway. But that this choice is strongly internalizing vs externalizing is very clear, both from the choice itself, from the art its based upon, and from how domains work in general.
I have other things to say about the narrative arguments, but that'll require a much longer post.
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Eh, I don't like this choice as a whole, but reducing it to spirit vs beast path / external vs internal is too simplistic. Do we think Jiao is less personally capable for being a zone of eye-filled darkness masquerading as a human body as convenient? Do we know that Elder Ying's area defence and perception focus means she's actually a, I don't know, field of abstract weightiness? We don't. Just the same as everyone has their own Balance of Yin and Yang, so to will cultivators balance their internal vs external and physical and spiritual aspects. Jumping to claims of weakness is inconsistent with what we have learned so far.
The personal bonus is still stinky butts that doesn't form as coherent a whole with the aspects of our other Arts of course, but not for it's internal aspect. It's because there isn't any clear overlap, instead of some. Optimal move is discarding this revelation, at least given the appearance of our current long-term path. Picking it up now means making alterations I'm sure people aren't anticipating.
Edit: Honestly, having two options to choose from for the internalization is frustrating because it makes the process all the more ambiguous.
Edit2: For an example of an internally focused Art that has thematic overlap with other Arts, take SCS. There's stealth/obscuring/hiding aspects to FVM and PLR as well. As well as lunar evasive links between PLR and SCS. There's a common enough theme of evading danger through misdirection and grace.
Avoiding danger through awareness of danger is much less prominent in our Art set, and personally not something I'm particularly excited to put into our Domain. I much prefer the stealthier approach thematically.
The personal bonus is still stinky butts that doesn't form as coherent a whole with the aspects of our other Arts of course, but not for it's internal aspect. It's because there isn't any clear overlap, instead of some. Optimal move is discarding this revelation, at least given the appearance of our current long-term path. Picking it up now means making alterations I'm sure people aren't anticipating.
Edit: Honestly, having two options to choose from for the internalization is frustrating because it makes the process all the more ambiguous.
Edit2: For an example of an internally focused Art that has thematic overlap with other Arts, take SCS. There's stealth/obscuring/hiding aspects to FVM and PLR as well. As well as lunar evasive links between PLR and SCS. There's a common enough theme of evading danger through misdirection and grace.
Avoiding danger through awareness of danger is much less prominent in our Art set, and personally not something I'm particularly excited to put into our Domain. I much prefer the stealthier approach thematically.
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DeAnno
Sometimes words have two meanings
I barely even have a horse in this race, but I feel like I want to claim that this is very much an oversimplification. You're seeing the distinction through the lens of Jiao and Zhou, but those are not the only paths, and in truth there are probably as many different paths as grains of sand on a beach or colors in a rainbow.
Sure, for Jiao and Zhou, the dichotomy of Internalization vs. Externalization may be of paramount importance, but I think it is folly to believe that applies to everyone. There are endless dichotomies we could split domain powers on: offense vs. defense, yin vs yang, prime numbers of characters vs composite numbers of characters, every cultivator probably has a method to their madness that works for them.
Ling Qi has barely defined any of that yet. She's got one domain power before this, an idea of "home", and a vague idea to focus on Music and some various elements. You could just as easily say that Ling Qi's initial domain power is about favoring the Spiritual World and mind-affecting threats over the Physical one and more direct dangers, and that the AM power to pierce lies and detect illusions fits far better with that than a much more mundane ability improving her spot checks.
If people think a unifying theme of externalization is what they actually want, then sure, that's fine, but external/internal definitely isn't the only way to slice the pie, especially with mechanics becoming more narrative after this year.
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Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Ehh...
I don't feel that simplifying the question would help, because this debate is almost 100% subjective with the most vocal posters having decided their own version of the One True Way long before we mastered this, and the votes based on how closely each choice maps with their personal interpretation.
The debate here is mostly for the sake of the audience at this point, in hopes that enough fence sitters will agree with your particular interpretation to win.
I don't feel that simplifying the question would help, because this debate is almost 100% subjective with the most vocal posters having decided their own version of the One True Way long before we mastered this, and the votes based on how closely each choice maps with their personal interpretation.
The debate here is mostly for the sake of the audience at this point, in hopes that enough fence sitters will agree with your particular interpretation to win.
We have been told by Yrs (I think on discord) that one could either ascend like a spirit or like a spirit beast (respectively physical and spiritual).
So there is not a thousand choice here. Internalisation or externalisation are the only possible choice for us (we won't ever be balanced).
So there is not a thousand choice here. Internalisation or externalisation are the only possible choice for us (we won't ever be balanced).
It is true that a cultivator ascending is mutually exclusive for spiritual, and physical cultivation. Yet as noted by Zeqing domain cultivation is similar to spirits (external), spirit beasts (internal), or somewhere between the two (where most cultivators are as humanities advantage is versatility alongside your Way being Unique).
To be fair, we know a grand total of diddly squat about what the process of going past White/Divine IC. As far as I'm aware we don't even know all that much OOC either, just that it involves becoming some form of spirit.
I think that's probably a mis-interpretation of this quote:
Which is specifically about domains, rather than ascension, and demonstrates the difference between inward-focused and outward-focused domains. However, it is not about making the same choice every time, but about degree of focus in general.
Which is specifically about domains, rather than ascension, and demonstrates the difference between inward-focused and outward-focused domains. However, it is not about making the same choice every time, but about degree of focus in general.
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
It's not a weak theme at all lol. Being able to see lies and illusion ourselves doesn't make it harder to 'enter our home', it makes it easier to intrude in other people's home. It is "I want to be this strong so I can defend my people", NOT "I want my home to be this strong". People can lie to our guards to get into our home. They can lie to our family. This doesn't help them, it helps us.
The reroll for Ling Qi and allies, however, means that people can't lie to anyone in our home, not just to us. It means people in our home can't be ambushed, and will find things more easily. It is about reinforcing the home itself, not about saying that only Ling Qi matters to make the home good.
I guess I need to vote strategically, urgh.
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi and Allies of at least four dots positive relation within one hundred meters may reroll a failed perception test once per combat or scene.
Both do.
- Location
- somewhere over there.
- Pronouns
- They/It
If you're trying to get the "deny" vote, you should know that this won't help. Accept or deny are counted, and then the subvotes are counted after if all the accept votes win. If that's not what you're trying to do...I honestly have no idea what you mean by "strategically".
Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
Voting strategically means voting for the second worst choice, not the worst one, because the best choice has 0 chance of winning.
- Location
- New Zealand
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi and Allies of at least four dots positive relation within one hundred meters may reroll a failed perception test once per combat or scene.
-[X] Ling Qi and Allies of at least four dots positive relation within one hundred meters may reroll a failed perception test once per combat or scene.
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi and Allies of at least four dots positive relation within one hundred meters may reroll a failed perception test once per combat or scene.
Edit: you know, I honestly feel that these mechanical descriptions were a mistake. There are good odds that we will never make another perception roll this year.
In that case, the mechanical details are a complete distraction that gets in the way of the real question: what is the narrative effect going to be next year? It would arguably be better if the mechanics weren't even given.
-[X] Ling Qi and Allies of at least four dots positive relation within one hundred meters may reroll a failed perception test once per combat or scene.
Edit: you know, I honestly feel that these mechanical descriptions were a mistake. There are good odds that we will never make another perception roll this year.
In that case, the mechanical details are a complete distraction that gets in the way of the real question: what is the narrative effect going to be next year? It would arguably be better if the mechanics weren't even given.
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DeAnno
Sometimes words have two meanings
Like some others, I can certainly see the writing on the wall and am ready for a strategic vote. To tell it true, I'm not overmuch disappointed in this outcome; we do have quite a lot of domain space right now to utilize, and it will be quite some time before it begins to fill up and make us regret our hasty grab for power.
Let's look at Ling Qi's foundation Domain slot right now:
A lot of people are focusing on the ally-buffing part, but I see two other big things. First, the most significant mechanical bonus is spiritual defense, and second, there is an additional bonus that can assist in both social situations and against certain types of checks. Granted, perception checks are included in that.
But one thing that strikes me is that Ling Qi has made a habit of dealing with Spirits quite a bit. I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to say she's had the most dealings with Spirits of anyone in the first year, including the monsters. She has patrons like Zeqing and Xin, she bound Sixiang, and even many of the jobs she took involved interacting with spirits and pacifying them. CRX hired us to be her Spymaster, but Ling Qi has developed this relationship with Spirits all on her own.
When dealing with Spirits, obviously one wants spiritual defense. When dealing with Spirits, often there's an opportunity for discussion before things come to violence, even if the situation is scary. After all, Zeqing is a terrifying blizzard spirit, but due to Ling Qi's diplomacy and tact in her interaction with Hanyi Zeqing has invited her into her own home and even shared her potent offerings with her.
Now let's look at the option I'm voting for:
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi receives a four die bonus when attempting to discern lies or see through illusions.
I think this actually shares a lot of properties with that. Illusions seem like a thing to commonly watch out for with Spirits, and such alien creatures often have inscrutable motives, so knowing truth from lies (even lies they tell themselves...) can be especially important.
Ling Qi seems willing to welcome Spirits into her home, as they have welcomed her into theirs. Perhaps she will become the girl who strides the gulf between the world of Spirits and the world of people, with a little of herself making a home in both, or even with her home striding that gulf as well, with all the necessary safeguards and accoutrements to make it so. A girl who deals with the mystical and alien as if it was commonplace, and who becomes a bit mystical and alien herself in the doing.
My future domain leanings will probably continue along this path, emphasizing the Spiritual world, spooky things beyond the ken of humans, relations with the alien, and so on and so on.
Let's look at Ling Qi's foundation Domain slot right now:
A lot of people are focusing on the ally-buffing part, but I see two other big things. First, the most significant mechanical bonus is spiritual defense, and second, there is an additional bonus that can assist in both social situations and against certain types of checks. Granted, perception checks are included in that.
But one thing that strikes me is that Ling Qi has made a habit of dealing with Spirits quite a bit. I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to say she's had the most dealings with Spirits of anyone in the first year, including the monsters. She has patrons like Zeqing and Xin, she bound Sixiang, and even many of the jobs she took involved interacting with spirits and pacifying them. CRX hired us to be her Spymaster, but Ling Qi has developed this relationship with Spirits all on her own.
When dealing with Spirits, obviously one wants spiritual defense. When dealing with Spirits, often there's an opportunity for discussion before things come to violence, even if the situation is scary. After all, Zeqing is a terrifying blizzard spirit, but due to Ling Qi's diplomacy and tact in her interaction with Hanyi Zeqing has invited her into her own home and even shared her potent offerings with her.
Now let's look at the option I'm voting for:
[X] Internalize Argent Mirror
-[X] Ling Qi receives a four die bonus when attempting to discern lies or see through illusions.
I think this actually shares a lot of properties with that. Illusions seem like a thing to commonly watch out for with Spirits, and such alien creatures often have inscrutable motives, so knowing truth from lies (even lies they tell themselves...) can be especially important.
Ling Qi seems willing to welcome Spirits into her home, as they have welcomed her into theirs. Perhaps she will become the girl who strides the gulf between the world of Spirits and the world of people, with a little of herself making a home in both, or even with her home striding that gulf as well, with all the necessary safeguards and accoutrements to make it so. A girl who deals with the mystical and alien as if it was commonplace, and who becomes a bit mystical and alien herself in the doing.
My future domain leanings will probably continue along this path, emphasizing the Spiritual world, spooky things beyond the ken of humans, relations with the alien, and so on and so on.
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Arkeus
Crazy cat guy
- Location
- France
If your argument is that we might be inviting spirits within our home, then I would say the other bonus is better for it? Not only does it mean that our loved ones would be able to see through the spirit's lies more easily, but it also means the spirits themselves will be more aware of when they do lie if they are truly invited into our home.
The perception lie bonus helps for when we are away from home, when we are building relationships with enemies and so on. Not when it comes to inviting said people in our home.
I'm also not sure where this belief spirits are focusing on illusions come from. I guess because of Sixiang?
- Location
- The Star Kingdom of Manticore
So looking at the domain vote got me thinking about what domain would fit Ling Qi really well. What if we went with a domain that is based on the key word perception? I am going to be arguing for a domain that weakens other's perception and strengths our own. Much like Zhengui is both sides of the same coin our domain can be too. Now before you chew me up lets look at some points.
1.) FVM SCS PLR all have the perception key word in them. FVM and PLR together create this AMAZING effect where people have to pass a perception test to attack us from range and a perception test to move close to us. SCS allows us to do some really funny things jumping from one persons shadow to another person's shadow. However, this effect is again perception based.
2.) We know what our future job is going to be. There is no reason not to start building towards it to succeed at it. The argument could be made that one should not change your soul for a job. This is true. However,
3.) Seeing the world clearer than others is very much a part of Ling Qi. She then uses that clarity of sight to help her friends see the world clearer. Lets go through some examples.
A.)
B.)
C.)
From here on out the examples will be of how Ling Qi started to use here ability to perceive reality stronger than others to help her friends.
A.)
B.)
C.)
D.)
Finally, for the examples, we have this gem. Ling Qi sees reality and helps LanLan to see it as well and helps her with the problem she is having.
There are plenty more examples that I could find if I could afford the time to spend hours searching for them. Full disclosure, this is some pretty hard core cherry picking and interpreting things in a positive light put I wanted to start this discussion.
Now one thing I would like to point out is that almost all perception altering effects are spiritual in nature. Our first ability was spiritual defense. This would help a great deal in defending from those effects.
For these reasons I would like to see about going the Domain of Perception.
Seeing the world clearly reveals hidden truths. By using those truths we can help our family and friends meet and challenge this world. And if enemies seek our friends and family? How will they find them as their perception dims until only darkness is left?
Domain of Perception.
1.) FVM SCS PLR all have the perception key word in them. FVM and PLR together create this AMAZING effect where people have to pass a perception test to attack us from range and a perception test to move close to us. SCS allows us to do some really funny things jumping from one persons shadow to another person's shadow. However, this effect is again perception based.
2.) We know what our future job is going to be. There is no reason not to start building towards it to succeed at it. The argument could be made that one should not change your soul for a job. This is true. However,
3.) Seeing the world clearer than others is very much a part of Ling Qi. She then uses that clarity of sight to help her friends see the world clearer. Lets go through some examples.
A.)
Here a spirit known for seeing a great deal complements us on our ability to see the world.
B.)
Here Ling Qi helps her friends with some physical sight. Even helping a tracker track even though she never stepped into true wilderness before.
C.)
Here we catch sight of something not quite right. This leads to a beautiful relationship with a spirit of the blizzard.
From here on out the examples will be of how Ling Qi started to use here ability to perceive reality stronger than others to help her friends.
A.)
Here Ling Qi sees that Suyin didn't quite know what to do and tries to help her.
B.)
And here we have LakeGate. Where Ling Qi starts to help her friend see what reality is. Both that Ling Qi truly cares for her and that Ling Qi can not be what Meizhen wants her to be.
C.)
Here in dark dreams we do something amazing and manage to cloak a large group of people to safety. Stealth is after all simply the other side of a perception test.
D.)
Finally, for the examples, we have this gem. Ling Qi sees reality and helps LanLan to see it as well and helps her with the problem she is having.
There are plenty more examples that I could find if I could afford the time to spend hours searching for them. Full disclosure, this is some pretty hard core cherry picking and interpreting things in a positive light put I wanted to start this discussion.
Now one thing I would like to point out is that almost all perception altering effects are spiritual in nature. Our first ability was spiritual defense. This would help a great deal in defending from those effects.
For these reasons I would like to see about going the Domain of Perception.
Seeing the world clearly reveals hidden truths. By using those truths we can help our family and friends meet and challenge this world. And if enemies seek our friends and family? How will they find them as their perception dims until only darkness is left?
Domain of Perception.