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Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

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Nemonowan said:
Well, as far as the mass-combat round goes, I'd say to throw up :
-Mist of the Vale + Dissonance of Night's Terror (instant) + Springs End Aria (instant)
-Followed by Winter Eternal Cadenza to recover all the qi spend
-And then we can cut loose with Illustrious Phantasmal Festival or Breath of Stygian Depths and their followup techs depending on how the tougher oppenents are doing.
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Can we throw up two instants and a normal cast? I thought at most we could do that if one of the instants is a reaction to an attack.

Also, considering all of this and how Ling Qi is accidentally into min-max, I don't get how people still believe we don't even have a shot at the stronger contenders. If we get the pain train going, not much is going to stop it besides some horrendously expensive 'dispel everything" talisman, and at that point we might as well count it as a win.
 
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TehChron said:
Well, yes.

It's...obvious? Sun Liling publicly declared that she wasn't allied with him, poached his victims for her own faction, and didn't even bring him along for her surrender.

There's no reason to assume they're associated unless you're overthinking it, and poorly at that.

Ling Qi's too absentminded for that kind of hypochondriac-like speculation.
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Not necessarily that obvious. I think it would depend on how peaceful the outer sect has been, overall, after Sun's surrender.
We haven't heard anything about it but that can be because Yrs didn't consider relevant enough to mention, so it could be either way: if there has been complete peace with everybody in closed cultivation preparing for the tournament, then Ling Qi should be wary of breaking the peace. If on the other hand the usual challenges and trophy claiming have kept going on, then a covert strike on a remote facility becomes perfectly reasonable.
 
Erebeal said:
Seriously though. For everyone who wants to leave things be, this is the best way to do that. We have the jade slip containing his core art. If someone had our moon slip, would we stop at anything to get it back?

If we want to move on, we have to genuinely try here. Not just go "whatever" and ignore him.

Besides, think about it: is not the idea of us going "you know what? I don't really like this art anyway. I'mma give it back because I'm a nice person" the most Ling Qi thing ever? Imagine Meizhen's face if she found out about it!

[x] Let it go. Remain on guard, but leave it be
-[x] return his jade slip as a peace offering
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Hmmm doesn't seem like a good idea to me because it seems mocking. If I was Renshu I'd beat the shit out of Ling Qi anyway for it. Maybe look at it from the perspective of if such a thing happened to us in a quest on here or SB?
 
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[X] It's time to finish this, one way or the other, infiltrate Yan Renshu's base and break the back of his operation for good.
-[X] Invite Meizhen along
 
[X] It's time to finish this, one way or the other, infiltrate Yan Renshu's base and break the back of his operation for good.
-[X] Invite Meizhen along

C'mon SV let us crush this worm into nothingness
 
PrimalShadow said:
A turn is one Main Action, one Instant, and one Instant Reaction at most. Neither Dissonance of Night's Terror not Springs End Aria are reactions, so that is a no-go.

We could do SEA + WEC as our second turn, however.
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Pity. Still it is a potent combo, ideal to fight when on a field of qi batteries mooks.
There is an interesting synergy with Fleeting Zephyr too as Thor's Twin mentioned.

Another possibility would be use One with Shadows to hide in a random mook's shadow before using SEA, to increase our chance to throw up all our effects undisturbed

I wonder, do MOTV and BOSD together cause complete darkness, since each of which reduces their area to low light?
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
Also, considering all of this and how Ling Qi is accidentally into min-max, I don't get how people still believe we don't even have a shot at the stronger contenders. If we get the pain train going, not much is going to stop it besides some horrendously expensive 'dispel everything" talisman, and at that point we might as well count it as a win.
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We've min-maxed into an army-killer build, not a hero-killer build. Our arts are absolutely phenomenal for taking down a large number of weaker enemies. Between our solid defenses and our ability to Qi-drain, we can absolutely rock it in an endurance battle when we have to slog through a horde of small fries. But none of that puts is into a position to dominate 1v1 combat. To win, we would have to get our debuff chain off the ground, AND keep adding to it faster than our opponent can dispel or apply their own debuffs to us*, AND get them down to magicarp levels before they kill us.

*Note that single-target debuff-on-hit is not a support ability; even FSA, a pure arm art, tends to apply debuffs on hit


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Also. You don't get to "count it as a win" if someone uses a dispel talisman. No moving the goalposts! If your objective is to have a good showing, fine - forcing them to resort to consumables counts. If your objective is to WIN, then you've got to win despite whatever trump cards the opponent pulls out.
 
Nemonowan said:
Not necessarily that obvious. I think it would depend on how peaceful the outer sect has been, overall, after Sun's surrender.
We haven't heard anything about it but that can be because Yrs didn't consider relevant enough to mention, so it could be either way: if there has been complete peace with everybody in closed cultivation preparing for the tournament, then Ling Qi should be wary of breaking the peace. If on the other hand the usual challenges and trophy claiming have kept going on, then a covert strike on a remote facility becomes perfectly reasonable.
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Yeah but Ling Qi's thought process would take some seriously belabored effort to even get to that point.

And half the point of the Yan Renshu problem even getting to this point is because Ling Qi just...flat out doesn't do that kind of thing.

She's the type that responds to the Gordion Knot with "Just cut the damn thing if it's in the way"
 
[X] It's time to finish this, one way or the other, infiltrate Yan Renshu's base and break the back of his operation for good.
-[X] Invite Meizhen along
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Grigori on Apr 29, 2018 at 8:06 PM, finished with 129 posts and 49 votes.
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PrimalShadow said:
Also. You don't get to "count it as a win" if someone uses a dispel talisman. No moving the goalposts! If your objective is to have a good showing, fine - forcing them to resort to consumables counts. If your objective is to WIN, then you've got to win despite whatever trump cards the opponent pulls out.
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Depends, if they have to use their 1/Tournament grade stuff, then yeah, I'd count it as a win. Not the win, but even that might not guarantee their out from a death spiral.

But talk of "we are little more than an annoying speedbump" sounds grating and ridiculous. Unless they are somehow sporting 50-60 dice as matter of fact, a single lucky break could get the debuff train going. And not 1-in-100 luck, but rolling a bit above average while they roll a bit below average.

Remember that we have almost Bai-level defenses. That our stealth is the best, bar-none. That we were going first when we were Mid-Yellow and Liling Green/Bronze.

You know what, let's ask: @yrsillar when we spar with Meizhen, while she obviously holds the upper hand, do we occasionally win? Or do we never use our full suite due to focusing on training a single art each?
 
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Erebeal said:
Crazy? Or crazy enough that it could just work?
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That isn't crazy, or crazy enough to work, it is just dumb. If anyone should be paying tribute for peace it is yan reshu. I would rather let him do all his prep work and eat the attack than bribe him into submission.


[X] It's time to finish this, one way or the other, infiltrate Yan Renshu's base and break the back of his operation for good.
-[X] Invite Meizhen along
 
TehChron said:
Yeah but Ling Qi's thought process would take some seriously belabored effort to even get to that point.

And half the point of the Yan Renshu problem even getting to this point is because Ling Qi just...flat out doesn't do that kind of thing.

She's the type that responds to the Gordion Knot with "Just cut the damn thing if it's in the way"
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My concern is that that is no longer so: she has somewhat improved her political awareness, but it may be just enough to realize that she doesn't know enough, thus the consultation with Cai. If she had less she wouldn't even consider it, if she had more she should be able to realize the answer by herself
 
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Nemonowan said:
My concern is that that is no longer so: she has somewhat improved her political awareness, but it may be just enough to realize that she doesn't know enough, thus the consultation with Cai. If she had less she wouldn't even consider it, if she had more she should be able to realize the answer by herself
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That's not how thinking works.

That's how lying to yourself, rationalization works.

You know what? You're pretty clearly just trying to fearmonger at this point.

Look, if you want to get Cai's help use your actual reasons for doing so. Don't try and make a nothing argument to try and scare people into thinking we need to do so. There are good reasons for going to Cai for assistance on this, and you do those who agree with that course of action a disservice by trying to make something out of nothing to win a non-existent 'argument'.
 
TotallyNotEvil said:
But talk of "we are little more than an annoying speedbump" sounds grating and ridiculous. Unless they are somehow sporting 50-60 dice as matter of fact, a single lucky break could get the debuff train going. And not 1-in-100 luck, but rolling a bit above average while they roll a bit below average
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Wellllllll.... They could totally have 50+ dice.

The thing is that they are really rich, and have coherent elemental suites. Focused builds can stack qi reduction and dice bonuses mich more easily, and when you can afford a full set of +4/4/4/4 gear it can get pretty ridiculous. It honestly wouldn't be hard for the monsters to have full qi reduction and be running +20 dice to both attack and defense from gear.
 
TehChron said:
That's not how thinking works.

That's how lying to yourself, rationalization works.

You know what? You're pretty clearly just trying to fearmonger at this point.

Look, if you want to get Cai's help use your actual reasons for doing so. Don't try and make a nothing argument to try and scare people into thinking we need to do so. There are good reasons for going to Cai for assistance on this, and you do those who agree with that course of action a disservice by trying to make something out of nothing to win a non-existent 'argument'.
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It isn't, oh all-knowing one? Funny, that is exactly how MY thinking works.
My thought process on this vote was:
-Gut reaction: get Meizhen and go waste Yan.
-Thinking about the options given: There may be political issues since we became Cai's retainer, acting unilaterally might be unwise, better warn her beforehand just like we did with Han Jian when we took Xiulian on a quest. Because WE do not know enough about the situation, and WE don't know whether Ling Qi does, either.
-Since what I want is to consult, not to ask for help (which might be the other meaning of that vote), I added the "Explain that you would prefer to deal with this by yourself, with the help of Meizhen who has a stake in it too. " write-in subvote.
-Given that I added a write-in, I justified my reasons for it.

You took exception with my reasoning arguing that Yan Renshu shouldn't be considered part of Sun's group, which is perfectly, but I still think that it assumes that it is actually true (we don't KNOW, you just reasoned it), that Ling Qi knows enough to realize that truth, and that there are no other considerations.
I still think that it is better safe than sorry at this point in the game, so consulting Cai would be a better move.

Can you explain how discussing this makes me a fearmonger?
 
[X] It's time to finish this, one way or the other, infiltrate Yan Renshu's base and break the back of his operation for good.
-[X] Invite Meizhen along
 
[X] It's time to finish this, one way or the other, infiltrate Yan Renshu's base and break the back of his operation for good.
-[X] Invite Meizhen along
 
Nemonowan said:
It isn't, oh all-knowing one? Funny, that is exactly how MY thinking works.
My thought process on this vote was:
-Gut reaction: get Meizhen and go waste Yan.
-Thinking about the options given: There may be political issues since we became Cai's retainer, acting unilaterally might be unwise, better warn her beforehand just like we did with Han Jian when we took Xiulian on a quest. Because WE do not know enough about the situation, and WE don't know whether Ling Qi does, either.
-Since what I want is to consult, not to ask for help (which might be the other meaning of that vote), I added the "Explain that you would prefer to deal with this by yourself, with the help of Meizhen who has a stake in it too. " write-in subvote.
-Given that I added a write-in, I justified my reasons for it.

You took exception with my reasoning arguing that Yan Renshu shouldn't be considered part of Sun's group, which is perfectly, but I still think that it assumes that it is actually true (we don't KNOW, you just reasoned it), that Ling Qi knows enough to realize that truth, and that there are no other considerations.
I still think that it is better safe than sorry at this point in the game, so consulting Cai would be a better move.

Can you explain how discussing this makes me a fearmonger?
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Because your entire argument rests upon a nothingburger that no one was discussing until you threw it out there, and for the most part you remain the only person citing that justification.

I hold no doubts that someone will say they were totally thinking it just to prove me wrong for the sake of base spite, but there's no evidence to justify your intuitive leaps.

You yourself have claimed that the only way your concern is valid is if Ling Qi expresses a train of thought that she has not yet, to date, expressed. Where she exists in some kind of nebulous space where she's too knowledgable to immediately leap to the obvious conclusion, and too ignorant realize the hilariously obvious flaw to your own reasoning.

Your argument banks on Ling Qi being ignorant.

Not being correct.

Therefore it's a character argument. As Characterization is a subjective thing, that in turn makes it reliant upon less than rational actors and arguments to bolster the directions we choose to take with it.

The arugment you are pushing is one which is reliant on the fear of the unknown, the off-chance that "Ling Qi might not know for sure tho". Thus presenting not going to Cai as having some kind of intrinsic risk that we wouldn't know the odds or potential consequences of to corral support for your argument.

You use fear of the unknown to buttress your position. Fear of consequences to attract support.

You are, by almost literal definition, fearmongering.
 
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[X] Take the matter of Yan Renshu to Cai Renxiang.
 
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