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First of all, we are commisioning general protection. Getting dedicated antimagic item optimized for mages (short range, working only for a moment) would likely not require Kragg. Less functionality to include.
We are commissioning general protection with 10+ favours and the personal attention of the oldest Runelord alive.

The kind of thing that produces is just... not mass-producible. At all. Like, magic items in general are not mass producible, but this even less so.

For that matter, this is not nearly as revolutionary as you seem to think. Magic items to make wizards safer are already available to multiple armies; the Empire, Bretonnia, High Elves, Wood Elves... Probably more, I didn't check every army book, but basically every army that doesn't have "especially volatile magic" as one of their shticks probably has at least one item able to cancel, mitigate, or make miscasts less likely - heck, even dark elves had one back in 6th edition, and widespread Dhar use is one of their iconic traits. 8th edition added one to the list of common magic items available to everybody. "Antimagic" is not some special, unheard of thing, and these items aren't even usually that expensive, they're simply uncommon, because magic items are inherently too rare to hand out to everybody, even among a small subset of the army like Magisters.
 
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[X] No
[X] For the sake of your curiousity, sit in on some of the meetings between the two Kings.
[X] Barak Varr is one of the greatest centers of trade in the world. Spend some time browsing to see if you find anything interesting.
[X] Test their skills in battle by sparring with them.
[X] Many mercenaries look for work at Barak Varr among trades looking to make the long and dangerous trip to the east. See if any can be convinced to join the Expedition instead.
[X] Marksman Codrin Petrescu
 
We are commissioning general protection with 10+ favours and the personal attention of the oldest Runelord alive.

The kind of thing that produces is just... not mass-producible. At all. Like, magic items in general are not mass producible, but this even less so.

For that matter, this is not nearly as revolutionary as you seem to think. Magic items to make wizards safer are already available to multiple armies;
Whom we are commissioning item from have little bearing on to what is required to make dedicated antimagic item.

What we are doing is getting best of the best runelord in the whole world to try his best effort to create unique legendary-tier item. But this is what Mathilde is doing. It is not what is needed to get limited antimagic item. Antimagic is known to dwarves in general, and they are good at it.

Item optimized for mage would be:
- Short ranged. There is no need to destroy spell formed by enemy. Only a spell being formed by mage.
- Pulse. Not a constant effect. Not even short duration effect. It only need to work for an instant.
- Limited use. It would be sufficient if it worked once per day. Or even once per week. Or even had some additional recharge conditions.

There is no 'pattern' for it, but after stripping all non-critical elements and optimizing it for mages, it should be possible to create such item for equivalent of 2-4 favours (please note, not now, but in future). Whether it would be sifficient to affect miscasted battle magic is another matter - but something like 2-4 favours should be able to deal with spells weaker than that.


As for items that makes mages safer available to armies... I am not so certain. Mages can do dispel. They can do shields. They can have tools to help with magic. But antimagic? As far as I know, it's a thing exclusive to dwarves. It is their speciality, the advantage they have in exchange for being unable to cast magic human way. They are people of stone. Strong, unyielding and down to earth.

So sure, there may be items that helps - but as far as I know, there is none that can deal with miscasts.
 
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Something I think is worth keeping in mind is that Mathilde is rather an exception to the norm, as far as magic items go. Like, this is not D&D, where past a certain level it's simply assumed that any important equipment is to some degree enchanted. No, this is Warhammer. It is a grim, gritty setting where magic is rare, dangerous, and frightening. Felix Jaeger, famed and experienced adventurer that he is, has one magic item. Abelheim, an experienced Witch Hunter, seemed to have none prior to his appointment as Elector Count of Stirland. Karl Franz, modern-day Emperor of Man with all of the Imperial Vaults to call upon, has two magic items. Powerful items, yes! But still, two.

By Warhammer standards, Mathilde is already caked in magic bling. Seriously, she has magically armoured robes, a magic torc to make her a vision of terror, and a resurrection seed nestling inside her. If we were going by tabletop rules (I recognise we aren't, this is simply to illustrate the point) she would already have spent half again to twice her magic item allowance - and the way this vote is going, we're soon going to have a masterpiece dwarfish talisman of protection that would probably be worth that much again all by itself. There are plenty of seasoned Magisters who would count themselves lucky to have even one such artifact.

Again, Mathilde Weber: caked in magic bling.

This is not a complaint, I should point out. Mathilde is an enchanter, who was appointed to high office by politics, and then presided over a major campaign. It is entirely fitting, and she has earned the right, that she is exceptional in this way.

But she is exceptional.
Whom we are commissioning item from have little bearing on to what is required to make dedicated antimagic item.
That's nonsense. Making magic items is artisanal work. The skill of the artisan absolutely has bearing on what's possible and how easily it can be done - it's probably the single most important factor.
As for items that makes mages safer available to armies... I am not so certain. Mages can do dispel. They can do shields. They can have tools to help with magic. But antimagic? As far as I know, it's a thing exclusive to dwarves. It is their speciality, the advantage they have in exchange for being unable to cast magic human way. They are people of stone. Strong, unyielding and down to earth.

So sure, there may be items that helps - but as far as I know, there is none that can deal with miscasts.
You are wrong. I cracked open my books and checked before writing the previous post. They exist and they are common, insofar as any magic item is common (again, they aren't); they're generally in the 20-25 points range. Like, do you want me to quote the item blocks for you? 'Cause, I can do that.

Again, 'antimagic', insofar as that's a thing, is not unknown. Knowing how to dispel and ground hostile magic, whether your own or that of your enemies, is just part of being a spellcaster. Heck, dwarfs aren't even that resistant to magic (it's just +10 on checks in the RPG, and zilch on the tabletop), they've just got Runesmiths who learn to be especially good at dispelling magic.
 
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Judging by how the vote is going, I'm wouldn't be surprised if @BoneyM included Antimagic as a consideration when this item is crafted. It's not like "Protection from Magic" isn't already an aspect of "Protection".
 
Something I think is worth keeping in mind is that Mathilde is something of an exception to the norm, as far as magic items go. Like, this is not D&D, where past a certain level it's simply assumed that any important equipment is to some degree enchanted. No, this is Warhammer. It is a grim, gritty setting where magic is rare, dangerous, and frightening. Felix Jaeger, famed and experienced adventurer that he is, has one magic item. Karl Franz, modern-day Emperor of Man with all of the Imperial Vaults to call upon, has two magic items. Powerful items, yes! But still, two.

By Warhammer standards, Mathilde is already caked in magic bling. Seriously, she has magically armoured robes, a magic torc to make her a vision of terror, and a resurrection seed nestling inside her. If we were going by tabletop rules (I recognise we aren't, this is simply to illustrate the point) she would already have spent half again to twice her magic item allowance - and the way this vote is going, we're soon going to have a masterpiece dwarfish talisman of protection that would probably be worth that much again all by itself. There are plenty of seasoned Magisters who would count themselves lucky to have even one such artifact.

Again, Mathilde Weber: caked in magic bling.

This is not a complaint, I should point out. Mathilde is an enchanter, who was appointed to high office by politics, and then presided over a major campaign. It is entirely fitting, and she has earned the right, that she is exceptional in this way.

I'm also fairly sure that Boney pointed out earlier in the thread that one of the reasons people don't go running around with a lot of magic and rare artifacts is because there are many who would target people just to get one minor artifact. Cults, Skaven, Chaos, to just name a few, and that's not even touching on the regular humans who would gladly kill a single wizard, even a magister, to get a dwarf talisman that lets them tank cannonballs and lightning. It might be fine for this or future major campaigns, but...I'm just worried getting all this magical loot might come back and bite us in the ass.
 
Any chance that some of the people voting for 'antimagic' or 'x/antimagic' can be convinced to approval vote for the other options containing antimagic as well? I can't imagine that most of the pure 'antimagic' guys would rather have pure 'protection' instead of a compromise for instance.

In general it seems that most people for some reason avoid approval voting, even though if you consider it fully, it is a much fairer and effective style of voting since it doesn't fall prey to the spoiler effect. I mean right now people wanting pure protection outnumber people wanting some flavor of antimagic only by three votes, yet the difference between the first and the second place is 22.

Also, could some of the pure protection guys chime in to explain their opinion as to why adding something else seems like a bad idea to them? I get that the QM said that too specific things will make the creation harder to achieve and stifle both IC and real world creativity, but going a single step more specific than generic protection on a whopping 15 rep points really shouldn't worry us.
 
Again, Mathilde Weber: caked in magic bling.

This is not a complaint, I should point out. Mathilde is an enchanter, who was appointed to high office by politics, and then presided over a major campaign. It is entirely fitting, and she has earned the right, that she is exceptional in this way.

But she is exceptional.
nods Not only a major campaign; a campaign which also let the Dwarfs settle multiple centuries-old Grudges. Anyone else want a talisman like this, step right up, I daresay the Dwarfs will think it a fair exchange to lean on Kragg a few more times if the Empire is suddenly bending its heroes and resources towards "settling all the ancient Dwarf Grudges"...

No, this is Warhammer. It is a grim, gritty setting where magic is rare, dangerous, and frightening. Felix Jaeger, famed and experienced adventurer that he is, has one magic item. Karl Franz, modern-day Emperor of Man with all of the Imperial Vaults to call upon, has two magic items. Powerful items, yes! But still, two.

By Warhammer standards, Mathilde is already caked in magic bling. Seriously, she has magically armoured robes, a magic torc to make her a vision of terror, and a resurrection seed nestling inside her. If we were going by tabletop rules (I recognise we aren't, this is simply to illustrate the point) she would already have spent half again to twice her magic item allowance - and the way this vote is going, we're soon going to have a masterpiece dwarfish talisman of protection that would probably be worth that much again all by itself. There are plenty of seasoned Magisters who would count themselves lucky to have even one such artifact.
Warhammer is famously inconsistent in this as in so much else, though. Journeymen in the RPG must acquire at least two magic items as a prerequisite to advance to Magister.
 
Also, could some of the pure protection guys chime in to explain their opinion as to why adding something else seems like a bad idea to them? I get that the QM said that too specific things will make the creation harder to achieve and stifle both IC and real world creativity, but going a single step more specific than generic protection on a whopping 15 rep points really shouldn't worry us.
The word "antimagic" is vague and people arguing for it have claimed that they're interested in effects that I'm not interested in, like trying to boost Mathilde's dispel/counterspell rolls or having a "reusable dispel scroll" power. What I want is an item that protects Mathilde, and does so really, really well. Whether that's from cannonballs or miscasts I'm willing to leave up to dwarf-and-thus-GM calls, though I should note that I think Mathilde could really make good use of protections against physical threats, but I'm not interested in diluting that purpose with unrelated matters.

In particular, votes like "protection/antimagic" seem excessively likely to result in, putting things crudely, a 7.5-point protection effect and a 7.5-point antimagic effect, resolved separately and combined into a single item. I'm not interested in two weaker items that happen to be included in one item slot. People voting that might want "protection from miscasts" or similar, but that's not what the vote says.
 
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[X] No
[X] For the sake of your curiousity, sit in on some of the meetings between the two Kings.
[X] Barak Varr is one of the greatest centers of trade in the world. Spend some time browsing to see if you find anything interesting.
[X] Test their skills in battle by sparring with them.
[X] Many mercenaries look for work at Barak Varr among trades looking to make the long and dangerous trip to the east. See if any can be convinced to join the Expedition instead.
[X] Marksman Codrin Petrescu
 
That's nonsense. Making magic items is artisanal work. The skill of the artisan absolutely has bearing on what's possible and how easily it can be done - it's probably the single most important factor.
What I am stating is obvious: requirements to create an item are one thing. Mathilde actions is another.

You are wrong. I cracked open my books and checked before writing the previous post. They exist and they are common, insofar as any magic item is common (again, they aren't); they're generally in the 20-25 points range. Like, do you want me to quote the item blocks for you? 'Cause, I can do that.
If You want to - sure. Further, I am certain that based directly on what You would copy/paste You would be correct.

The important element is what version/type of WF we You speaking about, tabletop or RP - and how it related to quest. Quest is not based on any single system, but RP is closest. In fluff what dwarves does is something different than dispel done by mages.

Again, 'antimagic', insofar as that's a thing, is not unknown. Knowing how to dispel and ground hostile magic, whether your own or that of your enemies, is just part of being a spellcaster. Heck, dwarfs aren't even that resistant to magic (it's just +10 on checks in the RPG, and zilch on the tabletop), they've just got Runesmiths who learn to be especially good at dispelling magic.
Once again - You are basing it all directly on tabletop mechanics, instead of general fluff.

BoneyM was underlining it several times - we cannot base things on mechanics, whether RP or tabletop. All we can judge by is fluff. And as far as I know, fluff-side dwarves dispel things in a different way. It's runes. Different, incompatible approach.

Hell, mages needs witchsight to see magic. Then needs to have active way to manipulate winds of magic. Then they need precision to damage or mess-up spell structure. Dwarves have none of that, yet they are still able to repel magic. They cannot do it the same way that mages does.

In short: rune magic is not wizard magic. Rune antimagic is not wizard dispell.
 
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[X] Yes
-[X] Talisman
-[X] Protection
-[X] 15 Favors

[X] Many mercenaries look for work at Barak Varr among trades looking to make the long and dangerous trip to the east. See if any can be convinced to join the Expedition instead.
[X] You've heard that greatswords and greataxes are very similar in the way they're used, and you happen to be surrounded by experts in the art of the axe. Learn how to use one.
[X] Barak Varr is one of the greatest centers of trade in the world. Spend some time browsing to see if you find anything interesting.
[X] Dwarf technology may be off limits, but the technology of other races are not and there could be all sorts of useful gadgets coming in from overseas. See if you can pick anything useful up with him from the vast markets of Barak Varr.
 
What I am stating is obvious: requirements to create an item are one thing. Mathilde actions is another.
No, what you said was that who we commission the item from has no bearing on what is required to make the item, and that is nonsense, because making magic items is artisanal work. The skill of the artisan is a crucial component in determining what sort of magic item is possible. If, as we are, we ask Kragg the Grim to make us an item and sink 10+ favours into it, we're going to get something that only Kragg has the skill to make. This is all but confirmed by the QM's statement that the only reason we can spend so many favours on an item is because Kragg is here.

Now, yes, it is possible to make less powerful items that help to ground dangerous magic, and several such items could be made by less experienced Runesmiths. There's just not much point in doing so when the Empire is quite capable of crafting roughly comparable items for themselves.
If You want to - sure. Further, I am certain that based directly on what You would copy/paste You would be correct.

The important element is what version/type of WF we You speaking about, tabletop or RP - and how it related to quest. Quest is not based on any single system, but RP is closest. In fluff what dwarves does is something different than dispel done by mages.
Having read the RPG and the fluff in general for more than a decade now - I don't believe you. Oh, the mechanism of dwarfish dispelling are different, a lot less actively picking apart of hostile magic and a lot more pitting stubborn will and prepared runes against a spell, but it is functionally the same thing. Again, I looked up the RPG's handling of dwarfish resistance; it's quite mild. If you're going to claim otherwise, than at this point I'm going to ask for citations.
Not that it makes much difference, but doesn't he have three. Ghal Maraz, the Reikland Ruenfang, and the Silver Seal.
Technically yes, but he doesn't carry both the Runefang and Ghal Maraz at once.
 
No, what you said was that who we commission the item from has no bearing on what is required to make the item, and that is nonsense, because making magic items is artisanal work. The skill of the artisan is a crucial component in determining what sort of magic item is possible. If, as we are, we ask Kragg the Grim to make us an item and sink 10+ favours into it, we're going to get something that only Kragg has the skill to make. This is all but confirmed by the QM's statement that the only reason we can spend so many favours on an item is because Kragg is here.

Now, yes, it is possible to make less powerful items that help to ground dangerous magic, and several such items could be made by less experienced Runesmiths. There's just not much point in doing so when the Empire is quite capable of crafting roughly comparable items for themselves.
Having read the RPG and the fluff in general for more than a decade now - I don't believe you. Oh, the mechanism of dwarfish dispelling are different, a lot less actively picking apart of hostile magic and a lot more pitting stubborn will and prepared runes against a spell, but it is functionally the same thing. Again, I looked up the RPG's handling of dwarfish resistance; it's quite mild. If you're going to claim otherwise, than at this point I'm going to ask for citations.
Technically yes, but he doesn't carry both the Runefang and Ghal Maraz at once.
Maybe we should gift him a shirt of press patch for Scale-mail Mage Armour.
You know. Because we maybe managed to assassinate his stand-in.
 
No, what you said was that who we commission the item from has no bearing on what is required to make the item, and that is nonsense, because making magic items is artisanal work. The skill of the artisan is a crucial component in determining what sort of magic item is possible. If, as we are, we ask Kragg the Grim to make us an item and sink 10+ favours into it, we're going to get something that only Kragg has the skill to make. This is all but confirmed by the QM's statement that the only reason we can spend so many favours on an item is because Kragg is here.
<sigh> I need to repeat: requirements needed for creation of given item are separate from Mathilde's actions.

It should be self-evident. But I'll expand. You have artisans. You have Kragg. You have desired item, and You have requirements needed to create it. An item may need normal smith to create. Item may need runelord create. Or item may need Kragg to create. What is required for creation of an item is one thing.

Now we have Mathilde's actions, and her quest. What she does, where she is and what situation she is placed in is another.

Both of those things have no bearing on one another. You can put 'mr X' in place of Mathilde and requirements wil not change. You can kill Mathilde entirely and requirements will still not change. Requirements for creation of item are entirely separate from Mathilde's actions.

That is what I am trying to say. I believe it to be self-evident.
Now, yes, it is possible to make less powerful items that help to ground dangerous magic, and several such items could be made by less experienced Runesmiths. There's just not much point in doing so when the Empire is quite capable of crafting roughly comparable items for themselves.
OK. Then kindly explain, why despite experienced enchanters in each order of magic and hundreds of years, mages are still not equipped with anti-miscast items?

Biggest threat to mages ever. Reason why they are mistrusted. Battle Mages dying from miscast. Stunted research out of fear of what may happen. Constant threat of demonic incrusion with each spell.... tell me then, why and how experienced enchanters in colleges does not produce anti-miscast items?

We are speaking about enchanters that can produce effective ressurection items. Why the hell didn't they make items that would save dozens of mages? Including battle mages? Why there are not people to specialize in anti-miscasts? Why there is no virtual factory of such items? Why are they not, at very least, widely known to all mages?

Answer it simple: they cannot. Antimagic the way dwarves does it, is simply out of reach of human mages.
Having read the RPG and the fluff in general for more than a decade now - I don't believe you. Oh, the mechanism of dwarfish dispelling are different, a lot less actively picking apart of hostile magic and a lot more pitting stubborn will and prepared runes against a spell, but it is functionally the same thing. Again, I looked up the RPG's handling of dwarfish resistance; it's quite mild. If you're going to claim otherwise, than at this point I'm going to ask for citations.
I could say something about my two and half decades of experience with setting... but let's agree to disagree. If You say that You outright don't believe me, then there is nothing I can do to change Your mind.
 
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[X] Help Seija teach Esbern to Dispel.
[X] Barak Varr is one of the greatest centers of trade in the world. Spend some time browsing to see if you find anything interesting.
[X] Dwarf technology may be off limits, but the technology of other races are not and there could be all sorts of useful gadgets coming in from overseas. See if you can pick anything useful up with him from the vast markets of Barak Varr.
 
OK. Then kindly explain, why despite experienced enchanters in each order of magic and hundreds of yeard, mages are still not equipped with anti-miscast items?

They can be. There's a 'common' magic item called an Earthing Rod that protects from Miscasts. The Empire also has another type of item called the Luck Stone which does something similar. These are one use items, so they're clearly 'mass' produced. They're not perfect, but they reduce the chance of miscasts substantially.

A version that lasts forever and doesn't crumble away after one use would be incredibly useful.
 
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In particular, votes like "protection/antimagic" seem excessively likely to result in, putting things crudely, a 7.5-point protection effect and a 7.5-point antimagic effect, resolved separately and combined into a single item.
I have to say that if you really think this you are giving BoneyM far too little credit. I'm also pretty sure that even if we vote purely for protection we will get some special flavor of protection worthy of what 15 Dwarf rep represents, not merely a huge +X to our defense. By voting protection/X I want to indicate a general direction that should take. But I'm very sure Kragg the Grim, or whoever takes the job instead, will come up with something unique and elegant, that would be very unlikely to have a "7.5/7.5" result.
@BoneyM How far off the mark am I with my above assumptions?
 
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