Forge of Destiny(Xianxia Quest)

[X] Remain silent, thank her sincerely for her trust.

So, I'm not overly concerned about Cai consequences tbh. Like, we could lose access to the White Room, and a month, and still be a monster come the tournament. We're really goddamn strong. And my feelings are that if we own our actions and are willing to pay penance for them, Cai will be happy to move on.

I'm concerned about all the other consequences. The consequences of pissing off Fu Xiang when we're already dealing with Renshu. The consequences of how much this could undermine Cai's order if this gets out. The potential consequences to Cai's council. All of these reasons are, I would say, much better reasons for not wanting to cause massive problems for all of us.

Hrrm... Tough choices.

First off, I would rather we didn't get worked into a frenzy here and act like this might ruin the rest of the quest or that the worst possible outcome is inevitable. I don't think that imprisonment is likely, at all.

Cai imprisoning us would be torpedoing her relationship with Meizhen and us, 2/3 of her top supporters. Furthermore, Cai knows that there is a chance that we will actually refuse imprisonment, and if we don't want to be caught, it will be very hard to catch us. She knows it, Ling Qi knows it. Furthermore, imprisonment is public, which would be Cai admittedly publicly that she can't control her supporters, the council may well fall apart, and basically, all of her work would be for naught. Ling Qi is a linchpin to the council and imprisoning us sends terrible signals to all the other council members.

Cai is politically smart enough to know that this would be a disaster.

The next punishment that she could levy would be fines of various amounts. This also runs into a severe problem, a problem that applies to Cai's imprisonment option above. It would be extremely hypocritical of Lady Cai to punish us for this crime and not punish us for the crime of breaking into Yan Renshu's base and looting it to the ground, twice. Or breaking into Sun Liling's base and taking some arrows. Both of those were illegal acts, the first one also destroyed a person's reputation and ruined years of work, but we didn't get punished for it. So if we do crimes that benefit Cai we don't get punished for it, but if we do crimes that don't benefit Cai we get punished for it? I think that Lady Cai is also smart enough to see that connection.

Absolute justice doesn't care about the reasons or goals of a crime, all it cares about is the crime. Lady Cai has already demonstrated that she doesn't follow the thoughts of Absolute justice and that she is more flexible with how she approaches her goals. She may be a monster, but a monster who wants to be as true to her self as possible.

Quite honestly, if we admit it we will place Cai in an extremely awkward spot with how she deals with it. Due to the above reasons, I don't think that she will imprison us, but if she fines us that will be revealing as well. Either way, an extremely uncomfortable position. Extremely uncomfortable for the both of us. At this point, I am more inclined to let the polite fiction lie.

The other side of it is that she already knows we framed the guy and this is a test of moral character as well. If she knows, and we don't fess up, then it will demonstrate to her that she can't really trust us to tell her what secret things we are doing behind her back. Sticky situation for her as well as for us.

So, in the interest of avoiding an extremely uncomfortable situation and taking my chances that Cai does not know everything and has little reason to believe that Fu Xiang is rigging the investigation I feel that I have to vote for.

[X] Remain silent, thank her sincerely for her trust.

[X] Admit to the deception about the market, apologize.

We are at the very least blackmailable by not!Kabuto, should we not admit it.
The surest way not to be blackmailable is to come clean ourselves.

Just getting a tally real quick

Thor's Twin said:

The next punishment that she could levy would be fines of various amounts. This also runs into a severe problem, a problem that applies to Cai's imprisonment option above. It would be extremely hypocritical of Lady Cai to punish us for this crime and not punish us for the crime of breaking into Yan Renshu's base and looting it to the ground, twice. Or breaking into Sun Liling's base and taking some arrows. Both of those were illegal acts, the first one also destroyed a person's reputation and ruined years of work, but we didn't get punished for it. So if we do crimes that benefit Cai we don't get punished for it, but if we do crimes that don't benefit Cai we get punished for it? I think that Lady Cai is also smart enough to see that connection.

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Whoa there.

They are not remotely the same. We were at war with Sun and Renshu. They were not under the aegis of Cai's order. Sabotage is perfectly legitimate then. Indeed, one might argue that fighting against them like that is justice.

The problem here is committing a crime against Cai's order, and then corrupting her justice to cover our tracks.

[X] Admit to the deception about the market, apologize.

Cai said it herself, this place is private. This is the best possible chance to admit this thing and work something out and Cai herself just admitted something we know OOC to be super duper important, and not only revealed her mothers mind but her own.
She qualifies for me now.

Don't fool yourselves, Cai intends to have us do much the same thing we just did for Fu Xiang in her service, it would be crazy for her to actually punish us for this.
However us admitting it lets her act upon the information in a way she might not have been able to before. Its unlikely that she will punish Fu Xiang for this but she'll probably exact a price from him for it. Privately.
Thats supporting our new 'lord', if we intend to go down this route fully with Cai this is the action we need to take right now.


Edit: I'll also say that im of the opinion that Cai already knows about this(we just got a ton of reminders that she has a big information network) and was just asking to see how we'd respond. I'd much rather have the air clear anyway because It puts us under Cai's leverage rather than Fu Xiang's and I really don't trust that dude even a quarter inch.

Even if she doesn't know putting Cai in the stronger position in the infowar is pretty much nothing but good for us compared to leaving it a Fu Xiang exclusive, EVEN IF we don't intend to accept her offer.

Cai isn't above backroom deals and she should realize that the best way to secure us with this information would simply be to back us up and set up a counterframe to point at Fu Xiang if needs be. This isn't enough leverage to force us to join her cause, but it is enough for a gesture of goodwill towards a prized target.

What does confessing gain Ling Qi? Anyone else, even?

It saves the guy about to be framed. It... Doesn't actually absolve Ling Qi of her guilt over the sabotage; the two still are unlikely to make it in to the inner sect.

It causes Cai Renxiang to choose between her ideals and her gain of a strong follower. It upsets Li Suyin, I would guess. It upsets Bai Meizhen, who's going to think Ling Qi is the stupidest cultivator ever, I would wager.

It'll almost certainly hurt Ling Qi's own path towards the inner sect.

It might lead to a rift between Cai and Bai, which won't help either's fight against Sun Liling.

Fu will be damaged, and will blame Ling Qi; possibly to the extent of helping Yan Renshu, possibly just to the extent of closing his door right after he was paid to get info on Yan Renshu.

Now, these certainly aren't guaranteed, although there's definitely going to be some of the above to some extent. But these seem pretty plausible to me.

So what is the benefit here? Specifically. Assuaging a pang of guilt and uneasiness over lying? A desire to test Cai Renxiang?

It puts Cai in a very difficult position. Like, to turn things around, what kind of friend puts their friend in that position just to awkwardly salve their conscience? Isn't that incredibly selfish?

Falconis said:

Don't fool yourselves, Cai intends to have us do much the same thing we just did for Fu Xiang in her service, it would be crazy for her to actually punish us for this.
However us admitting it lets her act upon the information in a way she might not have been able to before. Its unlikely that she will punish Fu Xiang for this but she'll probably exact a price from him for it. Privately.

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Yeah, I disagree (though it would be nice to know more there). There is no end of things that our skillset is useful for that doesn't require us to trample all over Cai's justice and order.

To be fair. "In private" is absolutely the best time to figure something like this out. But yeah, I admit, I'm on the fence here. This could go very badly regardless of which option we pick.

Alectai said:

To be fair. "In private" is absolutely the best time to figure something like this out. But yeah, I admit, I'm on the fence here. This could go very badly regardless of which option we pick.

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How might it go badly with staying silent?

EDIT: Ah, if it's a test by Cai? That seems a bit unlikely to me, to be honest.

CircleTheSkies said:

What does confessing gain Ling Qi? Anyone else, even?

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yrsillar said:

"Why then?" Ling Qi asked warily, hands resting on the table, her tea forgotten. There wasn't much point in denying it when the other girl so clearly believed it.

"Because what loyalty you have is beyond reproach," Cai Renxiang said without hesitation. "That is a trait which is difficult to find in retainers, your other abilities aside," she continued, leaning forward. "I am capable of earning such loyalty with time, if you would grant me the opportunity," she spoke with absolute conviction.

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Erebeal said:

It puts Cai in a very difficult position. Like, to turn things around, what kind of friend puts their friend in that position just to awkwardly salve their conscience? Isn't that incredibly selfish?



Yeah, I disagree (though it would be nice to know more there). There is no end of things that our skillset is useful for that doesn't require us to trample all over Cai's justice and order.

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yrsillar said:

Cai Renxiang took her question seriously though. "You would of course retain all privileges of a normal vassal, though in the interest of development, I would likely waive any taxes until you have become established," she paused here. "Primarily though… you would be among those who attend to me when I must visit the capital, or other similar functions," left unsaid was what sorts of things she'd probably be asked to do there. Ling Qi knew what talents she was valued for.

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Erebeal said:

It puts Cai in a very difficult position. Like, to turn things around, what kind of friend puts their friend in that position just to awkwardly salve their conscience? Isn't that incredibly selfish?



Yeah, I disagree (though it would be nice to know more there). There is no end of things that our skillset is useful for that doesn't require us to trample all over Cai's justice and order.

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Ling Qi is super selfish. And cruel sometimes. It's half of why Snow Helicopter Mom likes us so much.

Erebeal said:

Whoa there.

They are not remotely the same. We were at war with Sun and Renshu. They were not under the aegis of Cai's order. Sabotage is perfectly legitimate then. Indeed, one might argue that fighting against them like that is justice.

The problem here is committing a crime against Cai's order, and then corrupting her justice to cover our tracks.

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And I disagree.

We were engaged in a war game with Sun and Renshu, not a war. Cai believed it to be a war game, Sun believed it to be a war game, and Meizhen believed it to be a war game. This was not a position where it was killed or be killed, this was a fight for political superiority. So, hypothetically, after the sect, we join Cai, and Cai sends us off to gather information and sabotage one of her detractors. We do so, will we be punished? No, even if it was a crime and we stole extremely valuable resources, ruined his reputation, and destroyed his political capital, Cai would probably reward us. After all, that would have been our job.

At that point, she would be "corrupting" her own justice. Cai and her detractor wouldn't have been at war. There wouldn't have even been a semblance of a war game. But it would still have been all about jockeying for political superiority. However, we committed a crime and used Cai and her power to cover it up so that she wouldn't be implicated. In this way, we would have followed her directives and subverted the order she so desperately craves.

In the present case, we did our own thing and subverted the order she so desperately craves.

This difference, then, appears that if we follow Cai's directives we get rewarded, but if we do our own thing we get punished. Both instances for committing crimes and subverting the order that Cai so desperately craves.

If both the crimes against Yan Renshu and the crimes we would do under Cai's employ are jockeying for political superiority, then in that sense they are extremely similar, no? In both cases we got rewarded.

Back to connecting Yan Renshu and the crime we did currently. The distinction you made is that Yan Renshu wasn't under Cai's "order" and because of that crime against them are perfectly allowable and fair. That is an interesting distinction when the war games were to pull people into Cai's order and force them to obey it. In that sense, it would seem that Cai had already declared them to be under her order, and they were rebelling against that. In which case, crimes against them would still have been against people under her order.

I'd like to reciprocate her trust, but confessing doesn't benefit anyone, really, least of all us. She almost certainly suspects our involvement, but I doubt she is sure, unless Fu Xiang is playing some kind of game. I think we should cover this up and do our best to avoid indebting ourselves to anymore shady types.

[X] Remain silent, thank her sincerely for her trust.

Just in case what I was going for there wasn't clear, having Cai Renxiang find out about this ON HER OWN, after going through this heart to heart about trust and duplicity would just be bad for everyone involved.

CircleTheSkies said:

How might it go badly with staying silent?

EDIT: Ah, if it's a test by Cai? That seems a bit unlikely to me, to be honest.

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I could be wrong but personally, I'm working under the assumption that she knows or she has a suspicion it was Ling. In a way, the heist was too well done and considering Ling/Not!Kabuto are not finding anything considering their skill sets is odd.

Cai sure doesn't do things by half, does she.

Worth noting is that this isn't normal human behavior, and while Shenhua shaped Renxiang into a very skilled politician, CRX seems to be operating very much outside her usual programming. By asking from her a show of trust to open the door to friendship we got, well, this.

In light of that, we can either confess, with all that it's bad for everyone if Cai acts on the information, or we can stay silent and let Cai act against the justice she stand for, forever cementing the foundation of a potential friendship on a convenient lie.

Honestly when framed like that, the choice isn't too hard. If we want to stay with Cai we need to fess up. If we don't, we can stay quiet, smile, and slowly walk away from the inhuman monster with no friends.

Let's not follow Fu Xiang's example.

[X] Admit to the deception about the market, apologize.

CircleTheSkies said:

How might it go badly with staying silent?

EDIT: Ah, if it's a test by Cai? That seems a bit unlikely to me, to be honest.

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Yeah.

Like, if she already knows somehow, or suspects it. She's given us an opportunity to come clean and determine a means to make amends without us needing to be destroyed. It means that even if we go out on our own, we'll make sure she's aware of what we're doing so she doesn't get caught by surprise by it. Either a fine, or offering to reimburse them the lost stuff (And getting our 'Amends' out of the way by getting us to do the legwork for it if there's particularly rare and exotic materials involved that they couldn't normally get their hands on, but we're a combat-specced Third Realm.)

But yeah. There's ways to make amends for shit--especially things you kind of had to get your arm twisted to do--without going full on "CRUSH". Full on CRUSH is what happens when you do it publically. Or worse, someone makes it public. because in doing that, you're challenging their authority openly.

CircleTheSkies said:

How might it go badly with staying silent?

EDIT: Ah, if it's a test by Cai? That seems a bit unlikely to me, to be honest.

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It's unlikely that she knows. She's been farming out intrigue to FX, who has no reason to tell her the truth.

If she does know, it's unlikely that this is how she would test us. Ling Qi has been driving the conversation and the conversation as a whole has been about a wide ranging array of personal stuff that doesn't really have anything to do with the sabotage.

[X] Admit to the deception about the market, apologize.

I think if she does punish us it won't be a public thing. Like, she'll take away our income from the pill furnace, or give us a fine in private.

Regardless, the facepalm Bai Meizhen pulls when we tell her what happened will shake the roots of the mountain.

Now, mind you--it may be possible she doesn't actually know or suspect. But I find secrets will always out in the end, especially when you've got super intelligent, nigh-omniscient masterminds like Yan Renshu running around.

The GM has generally been merciful, and hasn't had things go the absolute worst they could have gone, so I'll console myself with that.

I'd still rather not rely on that going forward.

Also ask yourself this, if it gets sticky how long will Fu Xiang hesitate before throwing us under the bus?

"She approached me to keep this secret from you Lady Cai in order to increase her friends in the production track odds of success. I am sorry that I agreed to it now, and admit I was slightly tempted myself by the offer as I am a production disciple myself."

"What do you mean it was my idea? Please present proof that I put you up to this."

Humbaba said:

Well let's see. QM gives straightforward IQ test of either confessing to inspector Javert that they are a thief and screwing over their friends, contacts and 9 months of ingame work with the character finally climbing out of poverty and getting friends because he has a tragic backstory guys, don't you want to hug him?. Or not telling him and losing nothing. That's it, no innocent life hanging in the balance, no risk to anyone.

Stupid voters pick the first option because they're 'oh so smart' and think 'the power of friendship' is all you need. Then get mad at the TOTALLY UNFOSEEABLE consequences of screwing up 9 months of work and their relationships with all their friends.

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Mehhhhhhhh

That "analogy" was dumb, your shoddy attempt at insisting "the worst possible outcome that will ruin everything forever" will occur is noted and disregarded as irrelevant.