Nod has naver cared if it has happened or not they probably been accusing Gdi of doing stuff like that ever since the first shots of the first tiberium war.
So? Doesn't mean we make shit easy for them.
For that matter, doesn't mean we want to actually do it. Frankly I'd prefer us not to use any incendiaries. I'm not getting that so I'm opposing the one I can oppose.

This is all on top of the fact that I consider it to be a relatively inefficent use of a Mil dice when we have so many game changer projects available
 
The former sounds like a giant rolling bomb, since it would need to contain sizeable amounts of liquid tiberium at any time. Better to just try and find a more compact way to refine solid tiberium; "ability to store the tiberium" is not the bottleneck here, and we already have Visitortech harvester tendrils which have some of the advantages you seem to attribute to liquefaction.

The latter sounds like a great idea, but something very close to what we already have- again, the problem is that the mining process itself can set off liquid tiberium deposits inside other tiberium, so that by the time we even know it's there, it's already gone off like a kiloton bomb.
For the MARV equivalent i mean it would have the ability to process/refine the Liquid-T on the go, reducing the danger somewhat (limited by metal/STU storage and either requiring it to head back to base or a supply chain to free up space once it's full).

As for the latter the main thing i'm thinking is that the more Liquid-T/Tib interacting techs we have (like Liquid-T Refining, Tib growth enhancers etc) the more options we'll get for dealing with it over time, as our people get used to the idea that Tiberium can be controlled to a degree (also makes Kane's TCN seem more feasible, reducing skepticism when he shows up with his offer and allows us to negotiate better due to having more of an idea of what it might entail) and start investing in developing tools to interact with it that aren't just some variant of 'Send Harvesters' or 'smash it with sonics'.

The more we know about it the more we can improve abatement and removal efforts, with Liquid-T being one of the most important concerns for figuring out a way to deal with due to all the underground deposits that are forming.
 
That's not true, or at least, while a laser diffusing enough can stop an eye from blinding, actual usable laser guns are banned because they would cause blindness and we know this to be true because laser guns have been made and there are people who have been blinded by them. But also, a beam could diffuse enough to cover someone's entire body, but if there was sufficient energy in the beam it would still blind them.

They fall under the same category of using them is a war crime, when the reason Inferno Gel is bad is because its a war crime the why they are war crimes are secondary. GDI's Ion Cannons being impossible to make with current technology is in no way a rebuttal to the fact that laser guns are. The fact that lasers are used to flash/burn out sensitive sensors and trick missiles does not mean anything when the topic is focused on lasers strong enough to kill someone as if it was a normal weapon which is what I am referring to. It's like comparing 9mm to a Tank Shell, you are either being willfully obtuse or not understanding me properly.

If a laser strong enough to blind someone is intentionally used when people could be blinded, it is a war crime. They exist IRL, they are easy enough to make that normal people who know how to solder can make them, they are not magical macguffins like the Ion Cannon is and even if they can't burn through tanks they are banned so it being stronger and more harmful of a weapon does not matter when weaker IRL versions have already been determined as too much. SO when someone says Inferno Gel is a war crime and shouldn't be developed because of it but are fine with Lasers and other weapons whose use would be a war crime being developed I have to ask what the difference is. I understand not everyone wants to avoid Inferno Gel for that reason but for the people that do I have to ask what is the difference between developing one weapon whose usage would be a war crime and another weapon whose usage would be a war crime. Because unless the answer is "I am abritarly deciding that this kind of war crime is bad while this other kind is okay" then they are lying to themselves.
At this point, I'm beginning to get the sense that you're just going to keep sort of treating everything I say as an irrelevant diversion from "but lasers blind people in real life, and you have voted for laser weapons, so why don't you just believe everything is permitted?"

Bluntly, I have answered your questions. You just keep re-asking them.

There are very specific reasons why I see inferno gel as a problem and do not see laser weapons as they exist in the context of this game as a problem. I have already explained those reasons. Twice. Goodbye.

For the MARV equivalent i mean it would have the ability to process/refine the Liquid-T on the go, reducing the danger somewhat (limited by metal/STU storage and either requiring it to head back to base or a supply chain to free up space once it's full).
Honestly, I think that just including liquid tiberium as a step in the refining process at all is a terrible mistake, because it's never a good thing to have around, and it's by far the most dangerous and volatile substance so far known to exist in the entire franchise. I would be very hard pressed to imagine any good application for it that is not better served by other technologies.

As to "why is learning more about liquid tiberium a good idea," you don't actually have to convince me. I'd be delighted to learn more about liquid tiberium. I just don't think it's specifically a good idea to overkill liquid tiberium refining with three dice in the same turn that we overkill xenotech solid tiberium refining with three dice.

These are very important technologies to learn and I treasure them, but so to speak, "where's the fire?" It's okay if it takes two turns to unlock these secrets. There are so many other precious things in Tiberium that have gone neglected, such as Forgotten Research (ironically).
 
For the MARV equivalent i mean it would have the ability to process/refine the Liquid-T on the go, reducing the danger somewhat (limited by metal/STU storage and either requiring it to head back to base or a supply chain to free up space once it's full).
Oh hell to the nah nah nah my guy. Liquid Tiberium is the most unstable substance in the game. It's like Cesium except with all the steroids and working out unhealthily and ready to explode with the full power of an angsty incel teen...analogy aside do not put that in a MARV. That's like Death Star Core levels of bad idea

Liquid T Refining has its uses because it's a byproduct of our shit and we only use it for power...also makes said power safer I think

Edit: Like I recall the QM saying that it is possible to exploit LTib veins but also...well as with that Nat 1 on Vein Mines...you can see why that would be a risky idea
 
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Any plan that involves there being more liquid tiberium is a bad plan. I would like to keep GDI on a "subtraction only" basis for this horrible, horrible, hilariously destructive substance.

Like seriously, the Occult Studies project tried to call up the ghost of Derek Lowe to write the "things I refuse to work with" article on liquid tiberium and even his immaterial shade took one look at the stuff and NOPED right out of this entire plane of reality.
 
Liquid tib is a reality of tib, and it's here to stay. With all the other radical forces we're harnessing, we don't have much cause to ignore liquid tib.

The Visitors managed it somehow...and now we've got their stasis boxes. Liquid tib isn't so scary when only the smallest fraction of it is left out of stasis at a time.
 
Learning how to use the liquid tiberium that's gathering up underneat the mantle as a giant time bomb, isn't a bad idea. assuming the TNC doesn't fall into our laps we do need to learn how to deal with that, assuming we want there to be a Earth in the future. At the same time, actively creating more liquid tiberium is most likely a bad idea.
 
*Sigh*

I can agree with and understand your position on the second point, but all the first one does is explain why Incendiary weapons are banned IRL, but the Ion Cannons and Lasers we use in quest are also banned IRL. So saying Inferno Gel is problematic is a non-answer to my question because so are the Ion Cannons and Laser Weapons GDI uses. Like, I don't deny that getting killed by Inferno Gel is a terrible way to go but decrying Inferno Gel for it while ignoring all the other ways we horribly kill people in quest is just strange.

It's just, near every time Inferno Gel comes up there is someone who says it's bad and we shouldn't use because of X, and I'm like "Y and Z are just as bad and their fine with them, so why single out Inferno Gel?"

First of all incendiary weapons are not banned. They are banned from being used on civilians and you can't drop incendiary bombs on a location with a concentration of civilians.

No, it explains why there is a difference that is relevant in-quest.

IRL, directed energy weapons are subjected to bans no one bothers to contest because nobody's ready to deploy them anyway. It's like banning the use of unicorn cavalry in warfare; nobody cares enough to push back against it.

In quest, things are more complex. So the question becomes "okay, laser/ion/plasma/particle weapons have the potential to start fires, so why wouldn't they be just as banned/acceptable as inferno gel or other lesser incendiaries, no more and no less?"

And my response to that question was:

"Because there's a difference in how a chemical incendiary you load in a bomb or missile is used, and how a laser cannon is used. The laser is used in direct fire against targets that are, necessarily, in line of sight. As such, it is generally possible for a laser to be used discriminately against active enemy forces, taking various precautions to avoid harming civilians. It is much harder to do this with an incendiary bomb or warhead, which is often going to be thrown at targets well behind the lines or not in direct observation. This distinction may not seem relevant in IRL international law, but there is in practice a difference here."

What bans? The Stasi used Decomposition/Zersetzung, which was some form of X-Ray Laser, the Star Wars Program was ongoing until at least until 2010 in the US, The US deployed microwave weapons in the second invasion of Iraq, the Soviets put ruby and carbon-dioxide lasers as anti-ballistic and anti-satellite measures and sonic weapons in the form LRADs are used by law enforcement around the world.

None of those weapons made it into general use for one reason or another. Some didn't work well enough for more general use, others were just closed down on because some other less high tech solution worked just as well and was more easily mass produced, in the case of Decomposition it's not clear how much it was actually the effect of the laser and how much it was psychosomatic and LRAD are the only directed energy weapons that have entered general use.

There's also the anti-drone rifles showing up on Ukrainian battlefields on both sides, but those remain to be seen if they stay in military use.

Those weapons are banned IRL because everyone decided that direct energy weapons like Laser Guns and Ion cannons (which are hit by the double whammy of being hit by the militarizing space treaties as well) are bad not just for the target but also for the potential harm to bystanders in other ways. You are mono focusing on just the fire aspect when both weapons can do a lot of harm to people not being targeted just by being near them. The fact of the matter is that all of those weapons are banned under treaties whose purpose is to limit the damage and harm that war causes. So by just saying "Inferno Gel bad" while also ignoring the others is hypocritical.

You are confusing my point of "IRL it is widely agreed that all of these weapons are unacceptable for one reason or another so why only care about Inferno Gel" with "these weapons are all bad because of the potential indiscriminate fires they could cause so why only Inferno Gel". Because, well, under current international law to use the example you brought up that Laser Cannon would still be banned and that is my point.

The only IRL reason I could find that makes such weapons unacceptable is the inability to get them enough power on the battlefield for them to be used.

What no weaponizing space treaties are you talking about? And where in them does it say that such weapons can't be fielded on Earth?

Wonder if our sonic weapons would constitute a warcrime by our irl standards

When clearing a purely military installation with no civilians in it? No they would not. When hitting a housing block? Oh yes.

The militarizing space treaties aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Folks have been trying to figure out how to practically break them since pretty much immediately after they were first signed. The main reason why they're still on the books unbroken is because nobody's really figured out a practical way to weaponize space.

As for laser weapons*, they are banned for reasons that aren't really relevant here. Laser weapons aren't banned because they inflict burns upon their targets. The ban applies to weapons more akin to laser pointers. International law bans the use of them to intentionally blind enemy combatants (the human eye is really bad at dealing with extremely bright pinpricks of light). However, if you take a laser rifle shot to the eye, blindness is the least of your problems. As such, it can be argued that the ban doesn't apply to them, as they are designed to kill, not maim. It's not all that different from a conventional ballistic firearm in that regard.


*I'm lumping ion weapons in here too since they don't work anything like their C&C equivalents in real life.

Laser weapons as far as I am aware are not banned and are more problematic because they have a shorter range than a bullet on most battlefields.

As in the moment someone starts using laser weapons smoke screens can be deployed to counter them. Hard.

As a rule, if a gun messily destroys whatever you point it at, and nothing else, it's generally not going to be banned, with certain fairly specific exceptions.

It's when your gun has the potential to messily destroy everything within a 500-meter radius of what you pointed it at by setting off an uncontrollable chain reaction as a routine side effect of firing, or the potential to kill not just the soldier himself, but the nurse who tended to the soldier's wounds a week later, that you start getting more robust bans.

Not really no. Anything short of a nuke that can kill the nurse that tended to a soldier hit with it a week later can be countered with CBRN measures and pretty well at that.

Again, people are missing the point. Laser guns would not be banned because they cause burns, they would be banned because using them at all would blind who had the beam in their sight no matter what. So unless you plan to kill literally everyone who could've saw said beam which would break other laws and also be a war crime you can't argue that said Laser guns would not be banned. Literal commercial laser pointers can cause permanent eye damage and using a weapon that is many times worse by orders of magnitudes is banned and illegal, flat out. It can not be argued otherwise, especially not by saying "It's designed to kill whoever its pointed at" since it ignores that other people that it isn't being pointed at would be blinded for the rest of their life.

We have the means and technology to develop and use Laser Guns IRL, ones that must be vehicle mounted to be practical, but it is still something that can be easily done with today's technology so the argument of "Its like banning Unicorn Caverly" doesn't work because it is something that with current technologies and industries could easily be created. People have created Laser Guns IRL that could permanently disfigure and cripple someone for life using commercial parts that can be bought by the average person and put it on Youtube. Again, saying it being banned IRL is irrelevant because it's not possible and there is no framework to develop it is just flat out wrong.

Laser pointers can't set a tank on fire. I've seen those Youtube videos where people build laser guns. They are always done inside a closed space on flammable materials. Show me a laser gun that can work trough smoke on a modern soldier's combat equipment and one that isn't simply countered by wearing fucking googles before I'll believe you that laser guns are actually a thing.

And no the fact that if you point enough laser pointers on a human they get burns doesn't count considering how much time it takes to get even to first degree burns with that.

They are though? War crimes are when international law (such as treaties) is broken during war, a weapon that by said law or treaty says is banned being used is therefore a war crime. And I admit that the discussion has gotten a little out of hand but when asked why Inferno Gel is bad and "war crime" is the answer I have to figure out why Infero Gel is bad because using it would be a war crime but other weapons we use are okay even though there use is also a war crime. (War crime under today's standard, not GDI, because if using Inferno Gel would be a war crime by GDI's standards I doubt we would get the project) And as far as I'm aware, asking them what the difference is when the use of both would be a war crime is all I can do.

War crimes usually concern themselves with civilian damage inflicted by military forces since a lot of the treaties are on either civilians being targeted or POW mistreatment.

No weapons are fully banned from being used on a battlefield, though nukes and other weapons of mass destruction are heavily disincentivized by MAD.

Fuck's sake @Simon_Jester is outright wrong in his statement that weapons that hit beyond the horizon and do unpredictable amount of damage depending on their spread are banned considering how much cluster munitions turn up in modern wars and while froned upon in some circles are still used by most sides in conflicts when they can get their hands on them.
 
Liquid tib is a reality of tib, and it's here to stay. With all the other radical forces we're harnessing, we don't have much cause to ignore liquid tib.

The Visitors managed it somehow...and now we've got their stasis boxes. Liquid tib isn't so scary when only the smallest fraction of it is left out of stasis at a time.
I don't want to ignore it. I want to be rid of it. Pursuant to that, I want to not make more of it. We already have too much.
 
My own stance on the Inferno Gel controversy is that it seems like a "kicking down" weapon meant for fighting Nod more effectively, when I'm feeling pretty confident in our ability to do that already after we won the Regency War. I'd rather throw research actions into making next-generation weapons to fight aliens (or the long-awaited GD-3?).

Can the pro-Inferno Gel crowd sell me on its effectiveness against the Visitors? I never got that far in C&C3 to see what their light/infantry type units are. Though I understand they have Buzzer Swarms of nanites as A Thing that fire would be good against.
 
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Learning how to use the liquid tiberium that's gathering up underneat the mantle as a giant time bomb, isn't a bad idea. assuming the TNC doesn't fall into our laps we do need to learn how to deal with that, assuming we want there to be a Earth in the future. At the same time, actively creating more liquid tiberium is most likely a bad idea.
Figuring out how to "burn through" the stuff could require making some ourselves just in small scientific batches for our scientists to use to actually figured out what is a effective and safe way to do it.
 
We don't know. It could just be super napalm or better missiles or maybe it gives us better understanding of chemical engineering.

All we know is it's a super potent fire weapon nod uses. And we need to research it to see what we can learn from it.
Hell it could not be a good weapon for us at all but can be made to be awesome welding fuel or something else industrial.
 
*Sigh*



First of all incendiary weapons are not banned. They are banned from being used on civilians and you can't drop incendiary bombs on a location with a concentration of civilians.



What bans? The Stasi used Decomposition/Zersetzung, which was some form of X-Ray Laser, the Star Wars Program was ongoing until at least until 2010 in the US, The US deployed microwave weapons in the second invasion of Iraq, the Soviets put ruby and carbon-dioxide lasers as anti-ballistic and anti-satellite measures and sonic weapons in the form LRADs are used by law enforcement around the world.

None of those weapons made it into general use for one reason or another. Some didn't work well enough for more general use, others were just closed down on because some other less high tech solution worked just as well and was more easily mass produced, in the case of Decomposition it's not clear how much it was actually the effect of the laser and how much it was psychosomatic and LRAD are the only directed energy weapons that have entered general use.

There's also the anti-drone rifles showing up on Ukrainian battlefields on both sides, but those remain to be seen if they stay in military use.



The only IRL reason I could find that makes such weapons unacceptable is the inability to get them enough power on the battlefield for them to be used.

What no weaponizing space treaties are you talking about? And where in them does it say that such weapons can't be fielded on Earth?



When clearing a purely military installation with no civilians in it? No they would not. When hitting a housing block? Oh yes.



Laser weapons as far as I am aware are not banned and are more problematic because they have a shorter range than a bullet on most battlefields.

As in the moment someone starts using laser weapons smoke screens can be deployed to counter them. Hard.



Not really no. Anything short of a nuke that can kill the nurse that tended to a soldier hit with it a week later can be countered with CBRN measures and pretty well at that.





Laser pointers can't set a tank on fire. I've seen those Youtube videos where people build laser guns. They are always done inside a closed space on flammable materials. Show me a laser gun that can work trough smoke on a modern soldier's combat equipment and one that isn't simply countered by wearing fucking googles before I'll believe you that laser guns are actually a thing.

And no the fact that if you point enough laser pointers on a human they get burns doesn't count considering how much time it takes to get even to first degree burns with that.



War crimes usually concern themselves with civilian damage inflicted by military forces since a lot of the treaties are on either civilians being targeted or POW mistreatment.

No weapons are fully banned from being used on a battlefield, though nukes and other weapons of mass destruction are heavily disincentivized by MAD.

Fuck's sake @Simon_Jester is outright wrong in his statement that weapons that hit beyond the horizon and do unpredictable amount of damage depending on their spread are banned considering how much cluster munitions turn up in modern wars and while froned upon in some circles are still used by most sides in conflicts when they can get their hands on them.
1. You misunderstood a lot of my points. 2. Like, Simon, I am done with this argument
 
We don't know. It could just be super napalm or better missiles or maybe it gives us better understanding of chemical engineering.

All we know is it's a super potent fire weapon nod uses. And we need to research it to see what we can learn from it.
I quote the project description:
Derived from the Brotherhood of Nod's flamethrower systems, Inferno gel is a weapon of terror more than anything else. However, it does have its uses, and one of those is as a means of killing vehicles rapidly. By drenching a vehicle in pyroclastic gel, many of the soft systems can be destroyed, and the people inside blinded and likely immobilized.
If the project were going to give us something other than a method of using Inferno Gel as a weapon, it would say so. It will give us superior incendiary weapon capabilities.

It might lead to improvements in other similar chemicals, but we have enough projects which provide significantly more useful capabilities, with definite (rather than hypothetical) follow-on research options, that I don't think it is worth spending dice on pursuing now. And yes, I say that with the knowledge that the military is planning on pulling it from consideration in mind - if we at some point get few enough projects that it seems worthwhile to do, I expect it will be added back to the list.
 
Inferno gel is never coming back as a voting option once it is gone. It got pulled once already due to it causing too much of a shitstorm. It's being handled better this time, but it's still caused pages of debate where no one actually says anything that convinces anyone else.

I mean seriously. We just had ~20 techs dropped at once, many of which are transformative, and we're talking about this. There's been almost no discussion of the relative merits of the plans. It is intensely frustrating.
 
So here's a fun stupid idea. Our capacitors are (I think) the bulkiest part of the tank railguns that are in the actual turret. These new visitor capacitors could give us railguns that are over twice as powerful or (and this may be controversial) we can now stick twice as many barrels on the tank. A mammoth tank with 4 barrels of fun

Edit: I have just realised that we can use the STU alloy armour to significantly reduce the weight of the armour on the Mammoth without compromising the protection. This gives us a lot of spare weight that we can use to add another 2 railguns, for a total of 6
 
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So here's a fun stupid idea. Our capacitors are (I think) the bulkiest part of the tank railguns that are in the actual turret. These new visitor capacitors could give us railguns that are over twice as powerful or (and this may be controversial) we can now stick twice as many barrels on the tank. A mammoth tank with 4 barrels of fun

Twice as powerful guns may run into practical concerns like 'melting the barrels' or 'tearing the guns from their mountings' or even 'the rails are now embedded into different buildings as the force blew them apart'. Quadruple turrets may run into the issue of 'and then the turret popped off because it couldn't take the recoil'.
 
Twice as powerful guns may run into practical concerns like 'melting the barrels' or 'tearing the guns from their mountings' or even 'the rails are now embedded into different buildings as the force blew them apart'. Quadruple turrets may run into the issue of 'and then the turret popped off because it couldn't take the recoil'.
So fire them in sequence to make up for the long reload times. A constant stream of high velocity shells
 
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