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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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[X] Plan Chippin' In

Shadows said:
I dunno, I think that would need to be a thread thing. Would folks be interested in us losing ~80 progress on Gov-As this turn in favor of ~90 progress on 3 different refit projects starting next turn? I don't personally much care. I just know (most) folks are loathe to give up dice.
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I would prefer to get the refits over the Gov-A progress.
 
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Shadows said:
I dunno, I think that would need to be a thread thing. Would folks be interested in us losing ~80 progress on Gov-As this turn in favor of ~90 progress on 3 different refit projects starting next turn? I don't personally much care. I just know (most) folks are loathe to give up dice.
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Looking back, the Munitions department added 50 progress to Railgun Munitions Factories the turn it was activated, Q4 2062. So we're not losing any progress by activating the Refit department this turn.
 
LOL. Those military techs when we don't have the dice or STUs to deploy them.

Tentatively voting for this one:
[X] Plan: Physiotherapy
Don't have time to review most of the plans right now.
 
In regards to the Inferno Gel thing; AFAICT, IF went 'we want inferno gel', which made everyone worry about Initiative First wanting a Nod derived weapon that tends to be featured extensively in why Nod is terrible statements.

Open Hand asked 'against who do you want to use this thing that could be mistaken for a Nod weapon?' and did not like the answer they came up with. Political violence is nothing new to them.
 
[X] Plan New Age of Refining

[X] Plan Chippin' In

Shadows said:
I dunno, I think that would need to be a thread thing. Would folks be interested in us losing ~80 progress on Gov-As this turn in favor of ~90 progress on 3 different refit projects starting next turn? I don't personally much care. I just know (most) folks are loathe to give up dice.
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I think we're pretty much at that point.

We've got enough projects that the department would be busy for a while. Plus with all the tech projects I'm sure a couple more refits will show up.

I don't think it's a deal breaker on either side anymore. A plan with it or without it now would be fine.
 
Okay, so, it's not a deal-breaker for anyone sounds like. I'll give it til the morning and assuming nobody nay-says it I'll swap one of the Gov-A dice for the Refits department.
 
Karugus said:
his sort of moral equivocating is at best useless, and at worst liable to get your ass kicked if someone seriously argued this in character. The greatest of GDI's crimes can be attributed to neglect, arrogance, and ignorance. The greatest of NOD's crimes stem from aiding and abetting the worst mass murderer in human history. The Outback Tiberium blast, CABAL, the World Altering Missile, the Sarajevo Tiberium Blast, the Scrin, nuking GDI during the Scrin invasion etc.
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Never said that the crimes were equal. Just that both sides did some seriously bad stuff, and that Open Hand believes that people should move past it and forgive. Otherwise, the cycle of hurting continues on for generations. Can't say I disagree with them on that point.
Karugus said:
GDI doesn't want inferno gel to incinerate apartments like NOD does. It doesn't want Inferno Gel as a terror weapon. It wants Inferno Gel because incendiaries have proven incredibly effective against vehicles and material ever since the Finns fought the Soviets. Equating GDI's intended use to Blackhand shocktroops spreading terror as they march through a city is going to be incredibly offensive to the vast majority of GDI. Most of whom probably know people who've lost someone to NOD's 'cleansing fire'. Former instigators of terror preaching against it doesn't signal forgiveness even if that's the intent, it signals insincerity.
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GDI's use of Inferno Gel will be less immoral than Nod's. That's pretty much a given. However, that by no means makes it right. To say otherwise is morally dubious at best. It'd be like saying that the war crimes committed by the Allies during WW2 don't count because the Axis committed worse ones.
Karugus said:
NOD already used automated weapon carriers in the Mantis AA drone by TW3. With further drone tech development, population losses, and Scrin tech they're almost certainly going to use more automation.
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Let me rephrase, unless Nod suddenly goes for the vast majority of their tanks and other military vehicles being automated, we'll still be building weapons to (far more horrifically than usual) kill enemy soldiers.
Karugus said:
And in the scenario where a tank does get hit by incendiaries, it's more likely for them to suffocate from the air being consumed by the fire than they are to just cook. Yes, it's a poor way to go, so is radiation poisoning from braking radiation from an ion cannon going off or a plasma warhead. So is being crippled and blinded because there's so many lasers in the battle space (I'm pretty sure blinding lasers.
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The question isn't simply whether or not slowly suffocating/burning enemies to death would fit with the other horrifying fates war offers. It's also whether or not we have alternative methods of anti-tank and/or anti-material that work without the ethical issues. In my opinion, the answer to that particular question is very much "yes".
Karugus said:
Let me be fully blunt, we've taken the time after the war to develop weapons like zrbite sonic equipment, and they've tended to pivot towards biologically engineered potentially sapient slave races to fight and die for them. Every single warlord is essentially a war criminal if the highest order profiting off the industrialized misery of engineered sapients who possibly don't even have the context to conceive of freedom, peace, and a long and happy life.
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On this instance, I think that you have gone too far. We have zero evidence that the Gana are sapient. In fact I see two very solid reasons why they wouldn't be. First, from what we've seen they're extremely moral by Nod standards (fairly moral by non-Nod standards). They didn't interfere with the GDI evacuations, and treat their citizens better than just about everyone else in Nod. What's more, even if they are that morally bankrupt, I don't see why they would make sapient Gana. I'm pretty sure adding sapience would add a lot more complexity and risk of rebellion. What could sapient Gana offer over more animalistic models worth the added risks and costs?
Karugus said:
I don't care about the inferno gel on its own, I dislike the controversy blinding us to the far greater moral perils of some of our other choices, like pretty much anything we do to work with the twins. As far as I'm concerned, Open Hand deciding to make an issue out of this doesn't really speak well of this as NOD literally invents new crimes against humanity in the background.
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While I don't agree with you on how bad the twins are, I will admit that in an ideal world we probably wouldn't do business with them, given the GDI casualties inflicted by their creation. However, this is not an ideal world. The twins have massive popular support on the Indian Subcontinent, and rightly so. If we try to invade, we most certainly won't be greeted as liberators. It'd be such a bloody, horrific slog that doing so becomes wildly impractical. We can't afford to kill them, so we'll have to figure out a way to live with them. Doing business with them is part of that. The fact that "cooperation with GDI" makes an excellent wedge issue between the moderates and extremists in Nod is just an added bonus.
ninjakirito6 said:
I really don't see the point in deciding whether or not to use Inferno Gel based on whether it makes you icky or not. Because, well, what's the difference between burned to death and killed in seconds at most from the many Ion, Laser, and other Incendiary weapons we have? For all of them it kills at the same speed, the effects are similar enough if different in method, and the person they are used on is dead all the same. All of those weapons are illegal and using them a war crime in the real world (Treaties about not militarizing space and general Incendiary weapons and while lasers like NOD and GDI use aren't directly mentioned afaik would still be banned from other treaties) but because the real world doesn't have Sci-Fi laser weapons or Ion cannons using them is fine here? Why bother moralizing the Inferno Gel but not the others?
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I wouldn't lump Inferno Gel in with the laser and ion weapons just because both burn.the latter kill quickly, or at least as quickly as more conventional equivalents. Inferno Gel, however, is another matter. Imagine you're a Nod soldier trapped in a vehicle hit by Inferno Gel. All of a sudden your vehicle is dead, and the cabin is filling up with smoke. If you're lucky, you can't escape and slowly suffocate. If you aren't, you escape and are burned alive. That's a far more horrific fate than the other weapons you mentioned, thus the added controversy.
 
I just want to research the tech to see what it unlocks.

If all it unlocks is super napalm then great we know how to make super napalm now.

What I don't think is that having access to super napalm will suddenly turn the GDI soldiers into war criminals.

If we ever even deploy it then they have a additional option added to the many they already have and they would probably only use it if it was a more appropriate weapon for the situation.
 
I don't get this gel debate at all it feels overblown and misses the point that war is hell, and trying to say something is to evil to use feels hypocritical at a certain point because of the stuff both sides have done, like the fancy alien tech fighters nod use are practically just people melded to it or just brains in a jar and gdi is still pretty trigger happy with the iron cannons?
 
MSH said:
The description of Wet AI is a little concerning to me. Of all the mad science, there's something off about Seo portraying this as a good way to replace humanity.
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Seo's gonna whip off his mask and reveal he was CABAL all along!

[X] Plan Name Here
[X] Plan Bracing for Impact 1.3:

I'm making 2D on portals a critical point in what plans I vote for this turn.
 
So because we are now losing labor every turn thanks to our greying population. I figured I'd try to figure out how soon we are going to run out of labor.

We are losing 1 labor per turn. 8 turns until the end of the plan so -8 there
Just looking at our plan goals and the projects that are nearly finished.
Second Generation Repulsorplate Factories is -2 labor
North Boston is -2 labor
Karachi is -12 labor
Regional Hospital Expansions are -1 labor
Orca is -1
4 phases of Zone Armor is -8 labor
Finishing the Island-Class Assault Ship Deployment is -2 labor
Finishing the Modular Rapid Assembly Prototype Factory is -1 labor
We are getting labor back as the last gen power plants get decommissioned but the new ones still cost labor so for simplicity I'm going to assume those break even.

That costs us 37 labor. We currently only have 27 labor so we are 10 short for this plan. At the moments our only source of + labor is deploying the Governors refits for +1 labor. So for the remainder of this plan we are short 8 labor. Its possible that is Karachi goes well we might get some more labor from immigration but we need to unlock more + labor projects. That means we need to keep putting Free dice into Boston to unlock our next set of AI projects and keep working on our civilian augmentation so people can keep working.

I think we're also going to need Wet AI since it specifically mentions that it helps take care of our greying population. Caring for people is a lot of work so even if all it does is relieve some of the burden for caring then that will free up labor for other sectors. Our population probably won't like it due to the similarities it ahs with cabal but I think we're going to need to bite the bullet on that and get it started in 2-3 turns.
 
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Pursuing our current threads on med tech might be able to staunch the greying itself. That said, the drone tech is likely more important than Wet AI for freeing up labor. The Visitors have near-total automation according to it.
 
Another way of dealing with the Labor crunch is extensively automating GDI. Do the Drone Hub Development for that, as well as the Nuuk Robotics project.
 
When it comes to dealing with the crisis, the most immediate one is getting seriously moving on Boston and Aberdeen and getting on the AI train for both labor and dice. Nuuk, and more broadly automation is the second option, but it will be somewhat more limited. Third and finally, wet AI.
 
Terran Allias said:
So what plan puts the most into space? Again, I really want to hedge my bets.
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I believe that would be my "Plan Confused Screaming, space edition", with 11+Erewhon on Space, and 2 on Repulsorplates (though basically everyone has that.)
bigking321 said:
I just want to research the tech to see what it unlocks.
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That pretty much exemplifies the viewpoint I dislike about Inferno Gel: we pretty know what it will unlock - a new type of munition for rockets/bombs that is somewhat better against certain types of enemy units than our current munitions. The problem is, we have fucktons of projects that are likely to be at least as useful, we have a lot of research projects we still haven't gotten to which are more likely to lead to interesting things (particle beams, perhaps?), and at this point it seems like it's spawning arguments which are increasingly less anchored in quest-reality.
Ithillid said:
When it comes to dealing with the crisis, the most immediate one is getting seriously moving on Boston and Aberdeen and getting on the AI train for both labor and dice. Nuuk, and more broadly automation is the second option, but it will be somewhat more limited. Third and finally, wet AI.
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*points at 7 dice on North Boston in my first plan.*
 
Do we know what kind of dice will be used to build the Wet AI once they've been developed? Boston Aberdeen and Nuuk all use Heavy industry so having another set of dice we can spend to start tackling the labor problem would be useful. Also Wet AI is still AI so Boston and Aberdeen will probably help improve them.
Erewhon was services so if I had to guess thats what I'd pick but we only built 1 Erewhon where as Wet AI's will probably need something more like a factory.
 
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