No they just don't want GDI to use the same terrible weapon as they have seen firsthand how it works.
The problem with that argument is it just really serves to highlight the Open Hand as former NOD and makes politically attacking them trivial.

'Don't use Inferno Gel, we know it does terrible things to people'
'Because you and your associates used to use it on people'

Moreover, it's likely Open Hand's argument is rooted in is based off how NOD deployed Inferno Gel rather than how GDI intends to use it in largely anti material and anti-armor roles. Not even the IF is saying we should try and clear apartment blocks with the stuff. I'm not saying there's no valid reason to argue against Inferno Gel, or that we need it- I'm saying the worst people to advocate for banning it are the Open Hand. FFS I think the head of the Open Hand party is former Black Hand.
 
Seems fairly solid, plus getting both Xenotech and Liquid-T refining up and running as soon as possible seems like it'll give us the biggest payoff in the long run.
I really don't think that going from a 72% chance to a 98% chance is really worthwhile - it would give us a increased chance of success, by 26 percentage points, but at the opportunity cost of failing to complete/work on other important issues.
 
[X] Plan Karachi Groundwork
-[X] Infrastructure 5/5 Dice +27 bonus 65 R
--[X] Rail Network Construction Campaigns (Phase 6) 108/245: 2 Dice 30 R (78% Chance)
--[X] Emergency Caloric Reclamation Processor Installations (Phase 2) 31/70: 1 Die 10 R (100% Chance)
--[X] Post War Housing Refits (Phase 2) 33/150: 1 Die 10 R (26% Chance)
--[X] Advanced Tunnel Borer Development 0/80: 1 Die 15 R (68% Chance)
-[X] Heavy Industry 5/5 + 1 Free Dice +34 bonus 120 R
--[X] Second Generation Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 4) 117/270: 2 Dice 40 R (77% Chance)
--[X] North Boston Chip Fabricator (Phase 5) 406/1805: 2 Dice 30 R (2/16 Median)
--[X] Second Generation Repulsorplate Factories 365/525: 2 Dice 50 R (72% Chance)
-[X] Light and Chemical Industry 4/4 Dice +29 bonus 110 R
--[X] Bergen Superconductor Foundry (Phase 4) 523/610: 3 Dice 90 R (99% Chance, 3/16 Median Phase 5)
--[X] High Energy Capacitors Development (Tech): 0/60 1 Die 20 R (90% Chance)
-[X] Agriculture 6/6 Dice +29 bonus 60 R
--[X] Reforestation Campaign Preparations (Phase 1) 737/805: 2 Dice 10 R (100% Chance, 2/11 Median Phase 2)
--[X] Tarberry Plantations (Phase 3) 3/65: 1 Die 10 R (88% Chance, 23% Chance Phase 4)
--[X] Strategic Food Stockpile Construction (Phase 5) 78/170: 1 Die 10 R (53% Chance)
--[X] Laboratory Meat Deployment (Phase 1) 0/170: 2 Dice 30 R (54% Chance)
-[X] Tiberium 7/7 + 3 Free Dice +39 bonus 255 R
--[X] Tiberium Vein Mines (Stage 11) 4/165: 2 Dice 40 R (78% Chance)
--[X] Enhanced Harvest Tiberium Spikes 145/180: 1 Die 20 R (100% Chance)
--[X] Forgotten Experimentation 0/260: 2 Dice 60 R (10% Chance)
--[X] Coordinated Abatement Programs (Phase 3) 93/175: 1 Die 25 R (73% Chance)
--[X] Xenotech Tiberium Refinery Development (Tech): 0/180 2 Dice 70 R (72% Chance)
--[X] Liquid Tiberium Refining Development (Tech): 0/180 2 Dice 40 R (72% Chance)
-[X] Orbital 7/7 + 2 Free + Erewhon Dice +34 bonus 200 R
--[X] High Density Housing 0/295: 3 Dice 60 R (42% Chance)
--[X] Spaceport Bay 0/295: 3 Dice 60 R (42% Chance)
--[X] GDSS Shala (Phase 5) 868/975: 2 Dice 40 R (99% Chance)
--[X] Species Restoration Bay (Stage 1) 0/255: 1 Die + Erewhon 40 R (1/66/3 Median)
-[X] Service 4/4 Dice +35 bonus 190 R
--[X] Cosmetic Biosculpting (Tech) 194/345: 1 die 30 R (5% Chance)
--[X] Autodoc Systems Deployment 0/280: 2 Dice 60 R (2/3 Median)
--[X] Primitive Prototype Portal Construction 279/400: 1 Die 100 R (40% Chance)
-[X] Military 7/7 Dice + AA +31 185 R
--[X] Department of Refits: -1 Mil Die -30 RpT Auto
--[X] Initiative Laser Systems Deployment (Phase 1) 0/185: 2 Dice 60 R (44% Chance)
--[X] Orca Wingmen Drone Deployment (Phase 2) 196/215: 1 AA Die 20 R (97% Chance)
--[X] Stealth Disruptor Deployment 0/160: 2 Dice 30 R (67% Chance)
--[X] Island Class Assault Ship Deployment 70/135: 1 Die 25 R (82% Chance)
--[X] Modular Rapid Assembly Prototype Factory 102/265: 1 Die 20 R (1/2 Median)
-[X] Bureaucracy 4/4 +29 60 R
--[X] Administrative Assistance (Orca Wingmen): 2 Dice Auto
--[X] Transfer Funding to InOps: 1 Die Auto -60 RpT
--[X] Predictive Modeling Management: 1 Die Auto

1245/1365 R

[X] Plan Confused Screaming v2.0
 
While Shadows is an excellent planmaker, I do disagree with them on a single point. Specifically, I don't believe that developing Next Generation Armored Support Vehicles right now is the right choice. Particle Shields and Advanced Armor Composites both promise incredible improvements in survivability once developed, which will be crucial for the next-gen APCs and IFVs. The blurb even says:

Like, we might not jam xenotech defenses on the Guardian replacement, but at the very least the vehicle designed *specifically* to carry infantry through the heaviest concentrations of Nod firepower deserves to have these things. This is especially crucial since Ithillid has confirmed on the discord that shields *cannot* be easily refit, so we want them built in from the start:

(which is not to say that it's impossible, but I imagine it'd be a major effort rather than something we could quickly roll out)

Similarly, while not confirmed, I imagine that rebuilding a tank with all-new armor will not be a trivial task, so I'd like to get those two techs integrated from the get-go. As such, I've created a variants of Shadows' plan which switches the NGASV die on to Particle Shields to guarantee completion this turn so that next turn we can do the devs if we so desire.

(And to be clear, this won't be a repeat of the Escort Carriers / Wingman Drones debacle where we end up waiting a half-dozen turns or whatever; the moment armor and shields finish (which will in all likelihood be next turn) we should be good to do NGASV and NGAFV, since by and large the other techs can be relatively easily included in upgrades).

[X] Plan Chippin' In and Making Sure
-[X] Infrastructure (5/5 Dice, +27 bonus, 95R)
--[X] Advanced Tunnel Borer Development 0/80 1 die 15R 68%
--[X] Offshore Tiberium Harvester Stations (Phase 4) 0/150 2 dice 40R 68%
--[X] Yellow Zone Fortress Towns (Phase 7) (93/250) 2 dice 40R 63%
-[X] Heavy Industry (5/5 Dice + 3 FD, +34 bonus, 150R)
--[X] North Boston Chip Fabricator (Phase 5) (406/1805) 4 dice 60R
--[X] Second Generation Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 4) 117/270 2 dice 40R 77%
--[X] Second Generation Repulsorplate Factories (365/525) 2 dice 50R 72%
-[X] Light Industry (4/4 Dice, +24 bonus, 110R)
--[X] Bergen Superconductor Foundry (Phase 4) 523/610 3 dice 90R 100%
--[X] High Energy Capacitors Development (0/60) 1 die 20R 90%
-[X] Agriculture (6/6 Dice, +29 bonus, 40R)
--[X] Reforestation Campaign Preparations (Phase 1) (737/805) 4 dice 20R 100%
--[X] Strategic Food Stockpile Construction (Phase 5) (78/170) 1 dice 10R 53%
--[X] Organ Farming Programs (0/120) 1 dice 10R 30%
-[X] Tiberium (7 Dice, +39 bonus, 210R)
--[X] Enhanced Harvest Tiberium Spikes (145/180) 1 dice 20R 100% -5PS
--[X] Coordinated Abatement Programs (Phase 3) (93/175) 1 dice 25R 72%
--[X] Xenotech Tiberium Refinery Development (0/180) 3 dice 105R 100%
--[X] Forgotten Experimentation (0/260) 2 dice 60R 10%
-[X] Orbital (7/7 dice + 2 FD + Erewhon, +34 bonus, 180R)
--[X] Spaceport Bay (0/295) 4 dice 80R 91%
--[X] Species Restoration Bay (Stage 1) (0/255) 3+E dice 60R 71%+
--[X] GDSS Shala (868/975) 2 dice 40R 99%
-[X] Services (4/4 Dice, +32 bonus, 170R)
--[X] Primitive Prototype Portal Construction (279/400) 1 dice 100R 40%
--[X] Cosmetic Biosculpting (184/345) 1 dice 30R 5%
--[X] Civil Sensory Augmentics Development (0/120) 1 dice 20R 36%
--[X] Civil Prosthetics Development (0/120) 1 dice 20R 36%
-[X] Military (7/7 dice + 1FD + AA, +31 bonus, 175 R)
--[X] Binary Propellant Exploration (0/60) 1 dice 10R 92%
--[X] Advanced Armor Composites (0/80) 1 dice 15R 72%
--[X] Orca Wingmen Drone Deployment (Phase 2) (196/215) AA die 20R 97%
--[X] Particle Shield Development (0/120) 2 dice 50R 95%
--[X] Governor-A Deployment (Refits) (0/350) 2 dice 40R
--[X] Island-Class Assault Ship Deployment (70/135) 1 dice 25R 82%
--[X] Modular Rapid Assembly Prototype Factory (102/265) 1 die 20R
-[X] Bureaucracy (4 Dice, +29 bonus)
--[X] Predictive Modeling Management (-10 Capital Goods)
--[X] Transfer Funding to InOps (-60R)
--[X] Administrative Assistance (Military)

Could also ask me to make an adjustment. I've done it before.
 
The problem with that argument is it just really serves to highlight the Open Hand as former NOD and makes politically attacking them trivial.

'Don't use Inferno Gel, we know it does terrible things to people'
'Because you and your associates used to use it on people'

Moreover, it's likely Open Hand's argument is rooted in is based off how NOD deployed Inferno Gel rather than how GDI intends to use it in largely anti material and anti-armor roles. Not even the IF is saying we should try and clear apartment blocks with the stuff. I'm not saying there's no valid reason to argue against Inferno Gel, or that we need it- I'm saying the worst people to advocate for banning it are the Open Hand. FFS I think the head of the Open Hand party is former Black Hand.
Yeah…it would be as if, to get a bit political and real world (sorry in advance) Free Russia was complaining about the dangers of UXOs and cluster munitions being used by Ukraine…while Russia continued to use said cluster munitions and UXOs on Ukraine Sure they have a point but is Free Russia really the best person to call that shit out?
 
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Yeah…it would be as if, to get a bit political and real world (sorry in advance) Russia was complaining about the dangers of UXOs and cluster munitions being used by Ukraine…while they continued to use said cluster munitions and UXOs on Ukraine Sure they have a point but is Russia really the best person to call that shit out?
I mean in the Open Hand's defense they're not actively using the inferno gel themselves (given they're a political party), but given the fact the Open Hand is predicated on not being a complete ideological and religious rejection of NOD, it does seem a questionable position to stake your colors to the mast over. Even more so than if they were just former NOD
 
[X] Plan New Age of Refining
[X] Plan: Physiotherapy
[X] Plan Capital Goods and Fancy Tiberium
[X] Plan Confused Screaming v2.0
[X] Plan Karachi Groundwork
[X] Plan Chippin' In
 
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'Don't use Inferno Gel, we know it does terrible things to people'
'Because you and your associates used to use it on people'
The Open Hand has never, to my knowledge, denied that some of them and their associates have done horrible things during the war. Both sides have. Open Hand is about forgiving said actions in order to move towards a brighter future. Plus, there's not a whole lot of reason to actually argue against the banning of Inferno Gel. Not unless you're a far fringe member of IF, and the danger for mainstream politicians of being tainted by association means those arguments don't spread beyond said fringe.
Moreover, it's likely Open Hand's argument is rooted in is based off how NOD deployed Inferno Gel rather than how GDI intends to use it in largely anti material and anti-armor roles. Not even the IF is saying we should try and clear apartment blocks with the stuff. I'm not saying there's no valid reason to argue against Inferno Gel, or that we need it- I'm saying the worst people to advocate for banning it are the Open Hand. FFS I think the head of the Open Hand party is former Black Hand.
Unless Nod suddenly starts using large amounts of automated vehicles, any use of Inferno Gel by GDI will involve people dying horrifically painful deaths. That's not something that can be dodged around.

Yeah…it would be as if, to get a bit political and real world (sorry in advance) Russia was complaining about the dangers of UXOs and cluster munitions being used by Ukraine…while they continued to use said cluster munitions and UXOs on Ukraine Sure they have a point but is Russia really the best person to call that shit out?
I'd say it's more like if a group of former Russian soldiers who defected in no small part because of Russia's use of UXOs and cluster munitions argued against them.
 
As a note: I swapped out Forgotten Experiments for Liquid Tiberium Refining and Next Gen Support for another Particle Shield dice.
 
Mostly concerned with the fact that it is a low-priority low impact tech in a list full of VERY HIGH PRIORITY VERY HIGH IMPACT techs. Like shields. Or alien materials. Or (more) mobile MCVs.

Kicking down IF or helping Open Hand is a very distant concern to the fact that is just isn't really good tech at all.
 
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[X] Plan Give Me Science!

With all the refit projects we have including the Governor it seems like a good time to grab a department that is going to start making work of them. Also really like the big service push
 
Wasn't sure if I could convince you to go for it, since IIRC on the discord you've been thinking about doing NGASV this turn for a while. Still, sorry I guess?
no you're fine

I regularly argue with people on the discord from a variety of positions and if people are actually willing to do particle shields so we can put them in our next-gen stuff then I'm willing to have a greater focus on them in my plan. In context, that was me arguing for doing support vehicles prior to all the new tech on the grounds that the tanks benefit most from waiting a turn, while support vehicles benefit less and so could be gotten out the door.
 
Gib armor and shields

[X] Plan Chippin' In

We need them before new vehicle designs, hardest of all things to put in later.

Also I just really really like them.

gib.
 
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My plan does:

- 2 Die on Yellow Zone Fortress Towns not that our military is slowly getting ready to start pushing again, a Die on Advanced Tunel Borer Development for more construction tech and 2 Die on Offshore Tiberium Harvester Stations to get as much Ocean Tiberium Mitigation as we can because we will need it.

- 2 Die on Fusion Power to keep building up our surplus, 5 Dice and Erewhon on North Boston to keep that Phase 5 rolling and 2 Die on Repulsorplate Factories to get that done and get better Space options.

- 3 Dice on Bergen to get Phase 4 done and just keep on rolling into Phase 5 and 1 Die on High Energy Capacitors to see how much of a bonus to energy doubling our capacitors capacity nets us.

- 2 Die on Reforestation Preparation to get a Phase of it done, 1 Die on Strategic Food Stockpiles to get one Phase of that done in preparation for Karachi, 2 Die on Lab Meat Deployment to start rolling that out and 1 Die on Organ Farming because that is very useful for our population's healthcare as it expands who can get transplants and where.

- 1 Die on another Phase of Improved Tiberium Containment Facilities because @Simon_Jester is right and we will need them just in case Karachi goes pearshaped, 1 Die to finish off the Enchanced Tiberium Spikes and get our Spikes improved so they pull Tiberium up, 1 Die on Coordinated Abatement to get that done and our diplomatic relations improved with some warlords and 2 Die each on both Xenotech Tiberium Refinery and Liquid Tiberium Refinery because when we develop new tech side by side there are cross-pollination effects sometimes and two Tiberium Refining Technologies are guaranteed to have those.

- 2 Die on Shala to finish that off and 3 Dice each on both the Shala Species Restoration Bays to try and keep what we have of our biosphere left as soon as possible and on the Animal Husbandry Bay to get more data about how animals handle microgravity.

- 2 Die on portals because Bureaucracy is full of Actions to take this turn and I'm done slowrolling Portals or risking them not finishing next turn as well. @Derpmind is still right and we should get portals as soon as we can every time we can until we have the tech done. Also 2 Die on Drone Control Hub Development because we need that Automation and we needed it yesterday.

- 1 Die on Department of Refits because we now have 3 Refit Actions so might as well get started on those, 1 Die on Inferno Gel Development to get a new Munitions project before it times out in Q3 of this year, no I don't care what the IF or the Open Hand say we should develop each and every tech we can cause we never know what we'll get from those, 1 Die on Orca Wingmen Deployment because it didn't Autocomplete, 2 Die on Stealth Disruptors because while they will be late for the start of Karachi we will still get a new military paradigm out of it, 1 Die on the Island Deployment because it will be enough to demonstrate our commitment to the project and 1 Die into Steel Talons' MRA Factories because that is the project we are currently doing and we should finish it before starting new tech with the Talons.

- For once since we lost Security Reviews as an Action to take there are only Bureaucracy Actions here: 2 Die on Transferring funds to InOps to finish off that action set as we can only take it 2 more times, 1 Die on PMM to stop getting NAT 1s that easily and 1 Die on a round of trade to see what that does and burn some more PS.

[X] Plan Bracing for Impact 1.3:
-[X] Infrastructure (5/5 Dice +27 bonus) 95 Resources:
--[X] Yellow Zone Fortress Towns (Phase 7) 93/250 20 RpD, 2 Die = 40 R 63% ADC 44
--[X] Advanced Tunnel Borer Development (Tech) (New) 0/80 15 RpT, 1 Die = 15 R 68% DC 33
--[X] Offshore Tiberium Harvester Stations (Phase 4) (New) 0/150 20 RpD, 2 Die = 40 R 68% ADC 41
-[X] Heavy Industry (5/5 Dice + 4 Free Dice + Erewhon +34 bonus) 180 Resources:
--[X] Second Generation Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants (Phase 4) 117/270 20 RpD, 2 Die = 40 R 77% ADC 35
--[X] North Boston Chip Fabricator (Phase 5) (updated) 406/1805 15 RpD, 5 Dice + Erewhon Die = 90 R 6/17 Median ADC N/A
--[X] Second Generation Repulsorplate Factories 365/525 25 RpD, 2 Die = 50 R 72% ADC 39
-[X] Light and Chemical Industry (4/4 Dice +29 bonus) 110 Resources:
--[X] Bergen Superconductor Foundry (Phase 4) 523/610/1750 30 RpD, 3 Dice = 90 R 100%/ 3/16 Median DC 1/ N/A
--[X] High Energy Capacitors Development (Tech) (New) 0/60 20 RpD, 1 Die = 20 R 90% DC 11
-[X] Agriculture (6/6 Dice +29 bonus) 60 Resources:
--[X] Reforestation Campaign Preparations (Phase 1) 737/805 5 RpD, 2 Die = 10 R 100% ADC 1
--[X] Strategic Food Stockpile Construction (Phase 5) 78/170 10 RpD, 1 Die = 10 R 53% DC 48
--[X] Laboratory Meat Deployment (Phase 1) 0/170 15 RpD, 2 Die = 30 R 54% ADC 49
--[X] Organ Farming Programs (Tech) (New) (MS) 0/120 10 RpD, 1 Die = 10 R 30% DC 71
-[X] Tiberium (7/7 Dice +39 bonus) 175 Resources 5 PS:
--[X] Improved Tiberium Containment Facilities Construction (Phase 2) 11/90 20 RpD, 1 Die = 20 R 76% DC 25
--[X] Enhanced Harvest Tiberium Spikes (Platform) 135/180 20 RpD 5 PSD, 1 Die = 20 R 5 PS 100% DC 1
--[X] Coordinated Abatement Programs (Phase 3) 93/175 25 RpD, 1 Die = 25 R 73% DC 28
--[X] Xenotech Tiberium Refinery Development (Tech) (New) 0/180 35 RpD, 2 Die = 70 R 72% ADC 39
--[X] Liquid Tiberium Refining Development (Tech) (New) 0/180 20 RpD, 2 Die = 40 R 72% ADC 39
-[X] Orbital (7/7 Dice +2 Free Die +34 bonus) 180 Resources:
--[X] GDSS Shala (Phase 5) 868/985 20 RpD, 2 Die = 40 R 99% ADC 5
--[X] Shala Animal Husbandry Bay 0/255 20 RpD, 3 Dice = 60 R 71% ADC 41
--[X] Shala Species Restoration Bay (Stage 1) 0/255 20 RpD, 4 Dice = 80 R 98% ADC 21
-[X] Services (4/4 Dice +35 bonus) 240 Resources:
--[X] Primitive Prototype Portal Construction 279/400 100 RpD, 2 Die = 200 R 99% ADC 8
--[X] Drone Control Hub Development (New) (Tech) 0/180 20 RpD, 2 Die = 40 R 65% ADC 43
-[X] Military (7/7 Dice +31 bonus) 135 Resources:
--[X] Department of Refits -1 Military Die -30 RpT
--[X] Inferno Gel Development (Tech) 0/40 10 RpD, 1 Die = 10 R 100% DC 1
--[X] Orca Wingmen Drone Deployment (Phase 2) (High Priority) 196/215 20 RpD, 1 Die = 20 R 100% DC 1
--[X] Stealth Disruptor Deployment 0/160 15 RpD, 2 Die = 30 R 67% ADC 42
--[X] Island-Class Assault Ship Deployment 70/135 25 RpD, 1 Die = 25 R 82% DC 19
--[X] Modular Rapid Assembly Prototype Factory 102/265 20 RpD, 1 Die = 20 R 1/2 Median DC 100?
-[X] Bureaucracy (4/4 Dice +29 bonus) 120 Resources -115 RpT -5 PS:
--[X] Transfer Funding to InOps -60 RpT X2
--[X] Predictive Modeling Management
--[X] Trade Programs -5 PS per Action taken
---[X] Sell Consumer Goods : +5 Resources per Turn, -10 Consumer Goods
-[X] Total Cost: 95+180+110+60+175+180+240+135+120 = 1295/1365

This space is reserved for approval votes when I get around to making them. Edit: There were no approval votes this turn.
 
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While Shadows is an excellent planmaker, I do disagree with them on a single point. Specifically, I don't believe that developing Next Generation Armored Support Vehicles right now is the right choice. Particle Shields and Advanced Armor Composites both promise incredible improvements in survivability once developed, which will be crucial for the next-gen APCs and IFVs. The blurb even says:
I object , the army wants new gear now not in another 15 years , our tanks are already better than what Nod has to offer so the next gen is gonna be even better so their isn't enough return for us to waste more time to make them even better by waiting more , third our tanks while good are long in the teeth so best replace them now while we have the advantage rather than later when they are obsolete and at a disadvantage , forth its gonna take a long time to build and refit the needed factories and even longer for those factories to produce the needed tanks so the sooner we get started the better rather than do the same mistake as we did with the navy , we can still give them all the new stuff later via upgrades and their is always the generation of tanks after this once we get mass effect tech to stuff in all the toys
 
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