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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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MSH said:
Animal Husbandry's production also isn't even focused on meat, but other animal products. It's that, a partial research bay, a morale and health boost for the spacers, and politically appeases Developmentalists and FMP.

Approval from our coalition leader, I'll emphasize.
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They can also get a morale boost from the cities we will be building on the moon and the amenities further stations can provide.

Again. Time and space sensitive for restoring the critical, dwindling supply of Earth life.

Prime 2.0 said:
As in, we built it? Huh.
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Yep! It was in my first winning plan. Idk what year and quarter that was though.
 
Nottheunmaker said:
We really need that Animal Husbandry Bay. Yes it's space inefficient, but this is an experimental agricultural space station. The whole point is to figure out how to practice farming in space. And animal farming is... it's agriculture. I don't know how to emphasize that point any more then that. It's like the whole other half of farming. Not doing it here is far more wasteful then trying to build another station that does only that.
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I rather build lunar ranches.
If starting our lunar city is up next, it isn't a long delay.
And we don't have to repeat learning how to farm animals in situation X all over again.
 
Model DC.14F said:
Sorry, I can't tell if this is meant to be joking or not via text.

I vaguely remember NOD Atlantis, but I thought it was just a random theory/joke. Was there some Discord Info or something that discussed it?
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It's mostly just speculation. Speaking seriously, I don't think it's likely that NOD has some kind of huge underwater city or anything. But they almost certainly have something, as the deep ocean is one of the few places on the planet where GDI surveillance is lacking, and it's been decades since GDI had any submarines at all. For all we know, anything could be down there by now, from a bunch of submarine bases for global logistics to a sizeable naval force to, well, "NOD Atlantis."
 
I'm going to cut to the chase and put my vote where my mouth is.

[X] Plan Animal Space Science
-[X] Experimental Crops Bay x1
-[X] High Efficiency Void Crops Bay x1
-[X] Animal Husbandry Bay x1
-[X] Species Restoration Bay x3

Bam, three species bays and an animal husbandry bay. The thought alone makes me smile.
 
Prime 2.0 said:
[X] Plan Having Tasted The Fruit, Nothing Shall Be Impossible For Them v2

Not having any fruiticulture is a bit off-putting - it's important for learning about space adaptation, and psychological health is critically important in space so food diversity is not actually a luxury - but I otherwise appreciate what's being done here.
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It also ruins the pun! But yes, we've got one. Assuming we stop Parliament from putting fruit salad on their menu, I think we can at least manage "oranges for Christmas" until the spaceside population is fairly large.

Shadows said:
They can also get a morale boost from the cities we will be building on the moon and the amenities further stations can provide.

Again. Time and space sensitive for restoring the critical, dwindling supply of Earth life.
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I don't think we're going to come to an agreement on this. I consider the Animal Husbandry bay to be a critical piece in our ecological program, and potentially synergistic with both space expansion and the restoration bays in addition to its own merits.

It's nothing to do with giving spacers steaks. It is a piece of the grand ecology of Earth in its own right.
 
KnightDisciple said:
I recognize that, but as I've stated, I am approaching this from a perspective of Shala being a testbed and prototype, and if the Bay would give even a small increase in the variety of crops, I find it worthwhile.
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I get the sense that this is one of those things where opportunity cost reigns. We can get a 40%-ish expansion of what Shala's core already does, and only a fraction of that will go to increase in variety of crops, or we can get a 100% or at least 50% expansion of our capacity to refresh new species.

Plus, it's not like we can't test other food crops later on other stations when we build them. It's okay if we don't try to grow every kind of edible grain known to man on Shala all at once, with some of the more obscure ones having to wait five or ten years until there's more grain-growing volume in space. We won't be delaying our opportunity to learn so much essential information.

Nottheunmaker said:
I'm going to cut to the chase and put my vote where my mouth is.

[X] Plan Animal Space Science
-[X] Experimental Crops Bay x1
-[X] High Efficiency Void Crops Bay x1
-[X] Animal Husbandry Bay x1
-[X] Species Restoration Bay x3

Bam, three species bays and an animal husbandry bay. The thought alone makes me smile.
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Pretty much what I was hoping for, because I don't see the experimental crops as THAT important.

[X] Plan Animal Space Science
 
Shadows said:
Yep! It was in my first winning plan. Idk what year and quarter that was though.
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We worked on it in Q4 2062 and Q1 2063. Here's the blurbs for everyone:
Ithillid said:
[ ] Fruticulture Bay (New)
Growing trees on Earth is generally considered a waste of time, with a years long process before they begin producing, and the potential for them to be either damaged by war or infested by Tiberium being far too high for GDI planners. Growing trees in orbit would be a symbol of GDI's confidence in their ability to sustain habitation on other worlds, and significantly add to the food diversity available to the Initiative.
(Progress 225/335: 20 resources per die) (+8 Consumer Goods) (+5 Political Support) [4, 6, 98]


Trees, especially the slower growing trees, have often been symbols of peace. The ancient Greeks used olives for this purpose. For the Haudenosaunee, the white pine had some noticeable similarities. For GDI, it is likely to be the apple tree. Apples are a notorious pain to deal with, in part due to just how many genes an apple has, well over twice the count of the human genome. Many of these genes are also important for the taste of the final apple, resulting in many traditional apples being clones grown by grafting branches onto specially designated rootstock likes, which are also often clonal.

What has saved GDI here, is in fact, the very clonal nature of these crops means that maintaining a stock of apples in many living cultivars has been a priority of the genetics teams. These trees were expanded by the permaculture efforts, and now, entire trees are being prepared for a trip into space where they will be permanently housed in near-total sunlight. This makes possible something that very few earthborne tree crops can accomplish-the Fruiticulture bay staff have made plans to double-crop their apple trees, growing faster and then having a short 'winter' before a second simulated spring. Without inclement weather, the greatest hazard will be the fruit of the trees bending or breaking their branches.

Yet, growing trees is far from the simplest thing in the world. In part this is because it is actually quite possible to drown the plants. Trees actually need air pockets around their root systems, and gather much of their oxygen not from producing it in their leaves, but from a network of roots in the topsoil, often alongside a number of symbiont species. Replicating this in space is not a difficult process, but it is a complex one, requiring not only flowing water, but also building up a healthy soil layer in the bay, seeding it with pockets of bacteria and fungi simply to help keep the trees alive. Easiest way to do this is by quite literally hauling up a few tons of park dirt and letting nature take its course in a prepared substrate layer, but it requires some careful work to avoid a collapse.

This in and of itself has taken a significant portion of the time so far, with dedicated teams ferrying up samples for the Shala bay, and significant engineering efforts to ensure proper nutrient uptake under artificial gravity.
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Ithillid said:
[ ] GDSS Shala Bays
-[ ] Fruticulture Bay
Growing trees on Earth is generally considered a waste of time, with a years long process before they begin producing, and the potential for them to be either damaged by war or infested by Tiberium being far too high for GDI planners. Growing trees in orbit would be a symbol of GDI's confidence in their ability to sustain habitation on other worlds, and significantly add to the food diversity available to the Initiative.
(Progress 363/335: 20 resources per die) (+8 Consumer Goods) (+5 Political Support) [99]


Work on the Fruiticulture bay has completed. The products are still months or years out, as even while the trees are being shipped up as young adults, they are going to need time to settle in, and for their reproductive cycle to properly reset for the change of environment, and begin producing fruit again.
The impact is more symbolic than real however. Even the most optimistic of production estimates put the results in terms of citizens per fruit per year, rather than fruits per citizen per year. Despite being the largest station in terms of length and width, Shala is still relatively small, and a single extra bay does not double its area. The fruit trees housed within vary in their productivity, but supplying the United States with apples alone once took more than 120,000 hectares of orchards, to say nothing of other fruits. The production of secondary products, such as juices and flavorants, is thus a strong concern, to ensure that no fruit, no matter how ugly, goes to waste.
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MSH said:
It also ruins the pun! But yes, we've got one. Assuming we stop Parliament from putting fruit salad on their menu, I think we can at least manage "oranges for Christmas" until the spaceside population is fairly large.



I don't think we're going to come to an agreement on this. I consider the Animal Husbandry bay to be a critical piece in our ecological program, and potentially synergistic with both space expansion and the restoration bays in addition to its own merits.

It's nothing to do with giving spacers steaks. It is a piece of the grand ecology of Earth in its own right.
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I never said a thing about giving the spacers steaks.

It's everything about not duplicating work we're already doing groundside and making best use of the opportunity before us.

Stop making this about food. I'm not.
 
2064 Q1 Preliminary Four Year Plan Required Dice
Infrastructure Projects
Infrastructure requires the Planned City Project of Karachi and the Post War Housing Refits.

Required Projects:
-Karachi Planned City Phase 1-5: 0/1515 Progress ~9 dice median
--Requires 12 Labor
--Provides 20 Logistics
--Note: Dice split between Infrastructure and Tiberium.

-Post War Housing Refits Phase 2-3: 33/300 Progress ~4 dice median

Semi Required Projects:
-None

Infrastructure Total = 13 dice
40 Infrastructure dice for the rest of the Plan, 27 dice available, no free dice required.
Heavy Industry Projects
Heavy Industry requires the completion of North Boston. Additionally, we are going to need a several phases of 2CCF plants to support CCF replacement.

Required Projects:
-North Boston Chip Fabricator Phase 5: 406/1805 Progress ~17 dice median
--Requires 8 Energy
--Requires 2 Labor
--Provides 32 Capital Goods
--Provides 16 Consumer Goods

Semi Required Projects:
-Second Generation Continuous Cycle Fusion Plants Phase 4-7: 117/1100 Progress ~16 dice median
--Requires 4 Labor
--Provides 76 Energy
--Note: Total CCF Energy to be replaced is 152 Energy. We only need 40 Energy ready this plan for the shut down on Q1 2064, Q1 2065, and Q4 2065. However, given we want to be spending Energy on new projects in the next plan, this analysis will account for 2 dice spent on 2CCF for the remainder of the Plan with the knowledge that we don't strictly need more then 40 Energy and that every bit beyond that helps us in the future.

Heavy Industry Total = 33 dice
40 Heavy Industry dice for the rest of the Plan, 7 dice available, 0 free dice required
Light and Chemical Industry Projects
Light and Chemical Industry does not explicitly require any additional projects. Bergen is not explicitly required, however narratively there are many indications implying the necessity of the 4th phase to increase our ability to produce the 2CCF for non-plan projects, including offsetting the CCF plants coming offline.

Required Projects:
-None

Semi Required Projects:
-Bergen Superconductor Foundry Phase 4: 523/610 Progress ~1 dice median
--Requires 2 Logistics
--Provides 8 Energy
--Provides 4 Capital Goods

Light and Chemical Industry Total = 1 dice
32 Light and Chemical Industry dice for the rest of the Plan, 31 dice available, 0 free dice required
Agricultural Projects
Agriculture requires the Reforestation Projects, and the production of 1 Agriculture Consumer Good.

Required Projects:
-Reforestation Preparation Campaign Phase 1-2: 737/1595 Progress ~11 dice median

Semi Required Projects:
-Agricultural Consumer Goods: Must produce 1
--4 Provided by Shala (Phase 5)
--Total Produced: 4

Agricultural Total = 11 dice
48 Agricultural Dice for the rest of the Plan, 37 dice available, 0 free dice required.
Tiberium Projects
Tiberium is needed for the planned city of Karachi, an additional 17 RZ Mitigation, 270 Income and 470 Processing. Also, the currently described strategy employs Vein Mines as the primary source of Income post the Deep Glacier Mines. It is possible to replace the Vein Mines with Glacier Mines (see here), but we will see escalating Logistics costs.

Required Projects:
-Karachi Planned City Phase 1-5: ~9 dice median
--Note: Dice split between Tiberium and Infrastructure.

-IHG Tiberium Processing Plants Stage 1-2: 0/300 Progress, ~3 dice median
--Requires 8 Energy
--Requires 6 Logistics
--Provides 900 Processing
--Provides 1 STU (from moving HG processing to IHG)

-Coordinated Harvesting Phase 3: 93/175 Progress, ~1 dice median
--Provides 2 RZ Mitigation

Semi Required Projects:
-Tiberium Vein Mines Phase 11-13: 4/495 Progress ~6 dice median
--Requires 6 Capital Goods
--Provides ~90 RpT

-Deep Red Zone Glacier Mining Phase 4-5: 28/380 Progress ~4 dice median
--Provides 4 Energy
--Provides 4 RZ Mitigation
--Provides ~150 RpT

-Red Zone Containment Lines Stage 6-8: 54/520 Progress ~5 dice median
--Provides 3 Energy
--Provides 9 RZ Mitigation
--Provides ~45 RpT

Tiberium Total = 28 dice
56 Tiberium Dice for the rest of the Plan, 28 dice available, no free dice required.
Orbital Projects
Orbital currently requires the movement of 14850 people to Space.

Required Projects:
-GDSS Shala: 975/1005 Progress ~1 dice median
--Provides 400 Space Population
--Provides 8 Food
--Provides 4 Consumer Goods

-GDSS Columbia High Density Housing Bay: 0/295 ~3 dice median
--Provides 1200 Space Population

-Space Population Commitment of 14850
--13250 Space Population Commitment Remains post Shala and Columbia High Density Bay.
---Based on the average Bay efficiency of 350 Progress needed per 1000 Space Pop yields a conservative estimate of 4637.5 progress required. This implies 52 Dice needed for the remainder of the Space Population Commitment.
--Note: This has been decreasing due to the Housing Bays, the Alloy Foundries, and has the potential to decrease further due to the development and implementation of specific Techs.

Orbital Total = 56 dice
56 Orbital Dice for the rest of the Plan, 0 available, no free dice required.
Services Projects
Required Projects:
-Regional Hospital Expansions Phase 2: 85/275 Progress ~2 dice median
--Requires 1 Energy
--Requires 1 Capital Goods
--Requires 1 Labor
--Provides 4 Health

Semi Required Projects:
-None

Services Total = 2 dice
32 Services Dice for the rest of the Plan, 30 available, no free dice required.
Military Projects
Military requires the completion of multiple small projects.

Required Projects:
General Military
-Department of Refits: 8 dice Max
--Note: This is assuming we take this this turn, if we do not the effective die cost will decrease by one.

-Reclamator Hub Red Zone x1: 0/250 Progress ~3 dice
--Provides 1 Energy
--Provides 2 RZ Mitigation
--Provides 5 RpT
--Provides 1 STUs
-General Military Total = 11 dice

ZOCOM
-ZOCOM Total = 0 dice

Air Force
-Orca Wingmen Drone Deployment Phase 2: 196/215 Progress ~1 dice median
--Requires 3 Energy
--Requires 1 Capital Goods
--Requires 1 Labor
-Air Force Total = 1 dice

Space Force
-Space Force Total = 0 die

Ground Forces
-Ground Forces Zone Armor x4: 11/1140 Progress ~14 dice
--Requires 16 Energy
--Requires 8 Capital Goods
--Requires 8 Labor

-Next Generation Armored Support Vehicles: 0/80 Progress ~ 1 die

- Next Generation Armored Fighting Vehicles: 0/80 Progress ~ 1 die
-Ground Forces Total = 16 dice

Navy
-Governor A Deployment: 0/400? Progress ~5 dice median
--Requires 6 Energy?
--Requires 4 Capital Goods?
-Navy Total = 5 dice

Steel Talons
-At least 8 Steel Talon dice
-Steel Talons Total = 8 die

Military Total = 42 dice
56 Military dice for the rest of the Plan, 14 dice available, 0 free dice required.
Economic Targets/Factors
-Energy: 48 current, 5 in reserve
--40 Required by CCF Replacement (8 Q1 2064, 16 Q1 2065, 16 Q4 2065)
--8 Required by North Boston Chip Fabricator
--8 Required by IHG Processing Plants
--1 Required by Hospitals
--3 Required by Orca Wingmen Drone Deployment
--16 Required by GFZA
--6? Required by Governor A Deployment
--76 Provided by ICCF
--40 Provided by DEA
--8 Provided by Bergen
--4 Provided by Deep Glaciers
--3 Provided by RZ Containment Lines
--1 Provided by RZ MARVs
--Net: 98 Energy

-Logistics:‌ 32
--2 Required by Bergen
--6 Required by Tiberium Processing Plants
--6 Required by Deep Glaciers
--20 Provided by Karachi Planned City
--Net: 38 Logistics

-Food:‌ 42
--8 Provided by GDSS Shala
--Net: 50 Food

-Capital Goods: 21
--10 Required by Civilian Market
--6 Required by Vein Mines
--1 Required by Hospitals
--1 Required by Orca Wingmen Drone Deployment
--8 Required by GFZA
--4? Required by Governor A Deployment
--16 Provided by DIA
--32 Provided by North Boston Chip Fabricator
--4 Provided by Bergen
--Net: 43 Capital Goods

-Consumer Goods: 260 current, Must produce 20
--24 Provided by BoA and CID
--16 Provided by North Boston Chip Fabricator
--4 Provided by GDSS Shala
--Total Produced: 46
--Net: 306

-STU: 7
--3 Produced by new income
--1 Produced by RZ MARV
--1 Produced by IHG Plants
--Net: 12

-Labor: 28, +0 per turn
--0 Provided by Growth
--2 Provided by CCF Plant Decommissioning (1 Q1 2065, 1 Q4 2065)
--2 Required by North Boston Chip Fabricator
--4 Required by ICCF
--12 Required by Karachi Planned City
--1 Required by Hospitals
--1 Required by Orca Wingmen Drone Deployment
--8 Required by GFZA
--Net: 1
--Note Essentially our remaining Labor depends primarily on how much Labor we produce over this plan, we are scheduled to consume ~29 Labor and gain 2, as such with no additional growth, we will meet Labor requirements.

-Tiberium Processing: Must produce 470
--900 Provided by IHG Tiberium Processing Plants
--Total Produced: 900

-Income RpT: Must produce 430
--160 Provided by Private Industry (current 20 RpT/T tax growth)
--150 Provided by Deep Glacier Mines
--45 Provided by Containment Lines
--90 Provided by Vein Mines
--5 Provided by RZ MARVs
--Total Produced: 450

-RZ Mitigation: Must produce 17
--4 Provided by Deep Glacier Mines
--9 Provided by Containment Lines
--2 Provided by Coordinated Abatement
--2 Provided by RZ MARVs
--Total Produced 17

I've summarized the Economic Targets here as there are multiple ways to achieve them. I've noted the synergies between the Plan Goals as well. I've also placed them in the sections I feel they are most applicable.
Dice Required Summary
Infrastructure: 40 Total, 13 Required, 27 Available
Heavy Industry: 40 Total, 33 Required, 7 Available
Light and Chemical Industry: 32 Total, 1 Required, 31 Available
Agriculture: 48 Total, 11 Required, 37 Available
Tiberium: 56 Total, 28 Required, 28 Available
Orbital: 56 Total, 56 Required, 0 Available
Services: 32 Total, 2 Required, 30 Available
Military: 56 Total, 42 Required, 14 Available
Free: 48 Total, 0 Required, 48 Available
Notes:
-All dice estimates are calculated based on the present respective die bonus.
-The total dice numbers at the bottom of each section are the dice requirements for the Required and Semi Required Projects combined.
-Required Projects are those that must be completed for the Plan.
-Semi Required Projects are those that should be completed, but are not technically mandatory for the completion of the Plan. These projects provide efficient methods to achieve the economic targets or otherwise reduce/mitigate the economic costs of the other required and semi required projects.

Updates:
-Removed IHG Refits as Litvinov has dropped it as a promise
-Added Columbia High Density Bay to Orbital Projects as we have locked that in as one of the Columbia Bays
-As IHG Refits and the additional STUs they would have generated have been removed, an STU has been added to the IHG plants as they will net produce an extra STU over the current HG, which was originally under the IHG Refits

General Thoughts:
-With the removal of the IHG Refits as a requirement, there is a lot more space in Tiberium
-Orbital no longer requires Free Dice on average, I still think we need some there, especially if we want some of the non directly Space Population projects

Any questions/comments are welcome
 
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HousePet said:
Then we build a dedicated ranching satellite next. Not an issue.
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It is an issue if we don't get that option or if the ranching bay would help with Species Restoration. We have yet to get the option to build the zero-G materials station, so I can only assume that it is gated behind finishing all of the stations or it is going to be a while before we can build it. These bays give us a jump start on various aspects of space colonization testing how animals can be reared or have live in artificial gravity is a thing we would want. Especially if we are going to introduce these creatures to any artificial habitats that we want to have them on. Bees for example use polarized light to help them identify flowers they also measure time by the angle of the sun, would you think it not important to be able to work those kinks out in a controlled environment along side our species restoration bay.
 
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HousePet said:
Old Tanks:
If they are still good, we really don't have the dice to waste on replacing things that still work.
We have air assets that don't work anymore.
We have an overstretched ZOCOM.
We have a need to deploy tons of Zone Armor.
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Actually, developing and starting the rollout of new tanks is part of future proofing GDI ground forces. The development program will also help ZOCOM (and the ground forces) by providing APCs, IFVs and other vehicles that are optimized to work with Zone Armour, the Guardian APC has the volume, but the ergonomics are shit. We really should do the development and start rolling out the vehicles, even if only slowly.

For air assets, what we need is repulsorplates. The main issue we are facing in the air is that we are running into the limits of engineering with standard materials, and xenotech would greatly assist in creating a platform that can go toe to toe with Nod's air units on an equal or better footing.
 
HousePet said:
No, I would not. As that would already be happening inside the Species Restoration Bays.
If we want to do more of that, then more Species Restoration Bays.
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So then what advantage and head start do you think the Ranching bay gives that the other bays do not? And you are not allowed to say none.

//Edit: Mind it has to warrant the space inefficiency. Try and think of a reason for why it might be worth it. I am asking you to try and play devils advocate here.
 
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Manowl said:
Can imagine kane that built or something did in the Mariana trench it just feels like something he would absolutely do.
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I mean, probably nothing so deep. There's plenty of much shallower water that would probably be a lot more practical to build in from an engineering standpoint. As recent events demonstrate, conditions several kilometers underwater are very unforgiving for a pressure hull, and the bigger the pressure hull, the worse it gets.
 
Voidseer said:
So then what advantage and head start do you think the Ranching bay gives that the other bays do not? And you are not allowed to say none.

//Edit: Mind it has to warrant the space inefficiency. Try and think of a reason for why it might be worth it. I am asking you to try and play devils advocate here.
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I find this to be a little bit rude. I can say whatever I want, including not responding to you.

However, I would say that the Animal Husbandry Bay is an attempt at being a bit of both the Fruiticulture Bay (edible Consumer Goods for food diversity), the Species Restoration Bay (replicating environments in off-world conditions) and the Experimental Crops Bay (scientific development).
Trying to do a bit of all at the same time might be why it has the space inefficiencies bit.
But not without merit. A completed Shala with 2-3 Animal Husbandry Bays would be a decent alternative to building one or more of all the others.
 
HousePet said:
I find this to be a little bit rude. I can say whatever I want, including not responding to you.
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Well not whatever but you are well within the rules to politely refuse answering me or even not answer at all. I do thank you for humoring my request, and the analysis. Although I don't see how I was rude, at the moment it felt just like the tone you gave off, and the right way to avoid escalating into an argument.
 
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