Those two points are the reasons for me.
  • Increase in the diversity of food that spacers eat, improving morale and long term health.
  • Some ability for scientific experimentation.

Which is all great yes, but I imagine the 2nd point is covered in part by the restoration bays which are noted to allow for genetic engineering of organisms with greater bay counts, and the 1st point is in the 'can be shipped up from Earth' category. If you want the spacers to have more diverse foods, build Lab Meat factories in Agri.
 
Folks, we don't have the animals to fill our current Ranching Domes. Why on (or off) Earth are we voting for building more space for creatures we don't have when we could use that space to save more of the biosphere and do engineered organisms to fill niches that have entirely died thanks to time?
We probably do not need a lot of animals for it, I expect ranching domes to be very big installations, designed to provide meat for hundreds of thousands of people, while an animal husbandry bay should be a very small fraction of that, given we only have a few thousand people in orbit right now. Besides we only vote on what to build, not when, and I doubt animal husbandry bay will have priority over other space projects, so I expect at least several quarters till we come around to it, enough time for the necessary animals to become available anyway.
And while I am ok with your plan winning, I think getting experience in how to grow animals in orbit, experience that should be largely transferable to caring for humans, as well as to have animal specimens for experimentation, something that should help species restoration labs as well, is more important than to just have one more species restoration bay.

Which is all great yes, but I imagine the 2nd point is covered in part by the restoration bays which are noted to allow for genetic engineering of organisms with greater bay counts, and the 1st point is in the 'can be shipped up from Earth' category. If you want the spacers to have more diverse foods, build Lab Meat factories in Agri.
Genetic engineering labs are pretty different from having place and facilities to properly grow and care for a significant amount of lab animals.
 
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[X] Plan Having Tasted The Fruit, Nothing Shall Be Impossible For Them v2
-[X] Experimental Crops Bay x2
-[X] High Efficiency Void Crops Bay x1
-[X] Species Restoration Bay x2
-[X] Animal Husbandry Bay x1
 
Folks, we don't have the animals to fill our current Ranching Domes. Why on (or off) Earth are we voting for building more space for creatures we don't have when we could use that space to save more of the biosphere and do engineered organisms to fill niches that have entirely died thanks to time?

The Ranching Domes are for Earth, as are ultimately the Restoration Bays. This is about filling in our understanding of animals in the context of spaceside humanity. It doesn't have to be exclusively about meat production either - space research and adaptation of domesticated animals in general may come from this. It's potentially very important for our future.

We don't have any ways of getting new samples from species that went extinct without getting them, and computerized samples are beyond our ability to resurrect - sadly, two bays of microbiomes will probably get us to capacity.
 
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Which is all great yes, but I imagine the 2nd point is covered in part by the restoration bays which are noted to allow for genetic engineering of organisms with greater bay counts, and the 1st point is in the 'can be shipped up from Earth' category. If you want the spacers to have more diverse foods, build Lab Meat factories in Agri.
Can they hold big animals ? I thought only smaller ones and for some stuff you really want to have the whole animal there not just cell cultures.

Lab Meat has to be shipped up.
 
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I want to point out that the Mount Belaya explosion was mentioned four times in this update, a full turn after it happened. It's nothing that hasn't been said before, but Nat 1s can have very large, global effects depending on where they land, and we don't get to choose where or when they happen. The sooner we do Predictive Modeling Management, the better, period.
Although in this case, part of the issue is that the QM's taking many disparate examples of bad rolls (such as Biodiversity rolling badly and having a critical existence failure, or an Orca wingman drone ). Most of the other concrete problems would have happened anyway even if we hadn't rolled that particular Natural 1; we'd just have had different explanations for why they happen.

we need to work on mining tiberium, the speed spike has some value when we have removed all tiberium from earth and want to farm it. the growth spike have no value as of right now.
the median tiberium refinment is to useful and important to not utilize.
Reread the updates.

Visitor 'Tiberium accelerator' spikes have two relevant functions. One is the one on the name tag- it accelerates the growth of tiberium. The other, importantly, is that it draws tiberium from one side of a deposit to the other, pulling tiberium towards itself.

Our scientists have learned that these are separate functions, to some extent. In other words, by studying the accelerators, we can invent something that sucks tiberium out of the ground, without actually causing greater growth of the tiberium mass. Given that underground tiberium is a huge threat to the world and our way of life, that's a good thing.

Something that just makes tiberium grow faster is useless to us. Something that you can plug into one end of a tiberium vein and draw all the tiberium out of the rest of the vein, slurping it up like a spaghetti noodle, would be very useful indeed.

That's kinda the problem for our more smarter posters.
I wouldn't presume to say which if any of our posters are the 'smarter' ones, but I know that ZOCOM strain has been a huge concern lately. So let me try to distill their reasoning by listing our remaining income producing projects of note:

Tiberium Vein MInes
Red Zone Tiberium Harvesting
Tiberium Glacier Mining
Deep Red Zone Glacier MIning
Red Zone Containment Lines
Lunar MIning Projects
Super MARV Fleets


Everything else would depend on speculative technological advances, such as upgrades to our harvester tech.

Now, Lunar Mining Projects is a source of potential +RpT that doesn't bother ZOCOM one bit, but it burns Orbital dice. That may be deeply problematic depending on how hard we have to work to build up the second-generation space habitat in the next two in-game years. We don't (and for this moment, can't) be truly certain.

MARV fleets are no longer a good +RpT choice, because Red Zone MARVs mostly just directly product STUs and Yellow Zone MARVs are likely to get us into a nuclear war with Nod over their territory.

That leaves vein mines and various Red Zone projects. Vein mines are also a source of +RpT that doesn't bother ZOCOM, and I suspect they're going to be a cornerstone of our build strategy despite the recent Mount Belaya explosion disaster.

I do believe that the remaining Red Zone projects will be pursued with caution, but that doesn't mean not at all. We've been trying to move slowly and carefully to avoid overstrain for a few turns now, and just because the fact that the overstrain exists is still being mentioned doesn't mean it's getting worse or unmanageable.

We're already a little too stretched thin on military to be getting generous with development projects.
Would you mind providing evidence for this argument? And for the 'need' for nine dice per turn?

And I think Litvinov can be convinced to drop IHG refits request pretty easily.
In fact, it seems that maybe she already has been...

Note that it's crossed out as a plan goal in the latest Results post. I think Litvinov may have come to the same conclusion we have- that the IHG refits are extremely expensive, limited in their return on investment, and very likely to wind up wasting our resources if we're going to be finding yet another refinery method that's radically superior to IHG in the near future.
 
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Regarding ZoCom: we could start deploying the next phase of sonic weapons, it should help at least somewhat with the strain, otherwise agree with you.
I still think that tiberium veins is probably the best current income project we have, since even while it does not give us any points of mitigation on paper, we still at least reduce the amount of underground tiberium before it can breach the surface, explode or get even deeper towards magma. It is also arguably a project that should strain ZoCom less than the alternatives, due to high usage of drones and automation.
 
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@Ithillid

Is there any chance of getting more phases of Offshore Tiberium Harvesting? Naval confidence may not be high enough yet, so maybe not, but I figured it was worth asking.

You know, maybe instead of replacing HG/IHG with Xenotech refineries... maybe that Amazonia Planned City for pumping out STUs will be using this method instead of APK?
That's certainly likely, but we'll also want to build Visitor-tech refineries in other Blue Zones around the world, I think. Because otherwise we'd be shipping massive amounts of tiberium in freighter holds to put it into the Amazonia refinery complex, and that's definitely more trouble than it's worth.

I feel bad for the Navy. It's practically the unwanted step child of the military branches. Practically everything has priority over it unless a panic is happening or we could lose a capability. At this point, I might seriously support losing a mil die to create a Dept of Naval Procurement, just so Navy programs get consistent funding. :rofl:
Space Force and Air Force are in essentially the same boat, you know.

About the best we can do as a sustainable average for any one of the six branches of the military is about one die per turn on average and in practice we usually prefer to spend 2-3 dice on a project up front in hopes of completing it rather than trickling one die at a time into something for several turns. This also means Ithillid isn't writing seven blurbs per turn just for Military alone, which is probably just as well.

Looking at what was actually on the Navy project docket in 2062Q1 at the start of the Plan, there were four projects:

Infernium Laser Refits
Governor-A Development
Island-Class Assault Ship Deployment
Shark-Class Frigate Shiypard (Seattle)

Of these, three of the four projects are now done and nearing completion two years later, with a total dice cost of 7-8 dice as of 2062Q1 (before alloys) and maybe a bit less now after alloys.

The Navy isn't actually getting that bad a funding level. It's a bit jerky, but if the Navy really wanted to get exactly one die of investment per turn every turn, they should probably have said something a couple of years ago much as we made a similar commitment to the Talons.

I don't. These are the same people(read brass) who refused to admit submarines existed for most of a decade and kept complaining about the investment marine air power ... AKA the things dealing with those submarines they refused to acknowledge. Add in their antics with fighting with battleships until all the weapons where shaved off the hull and you can get an idea on why they are a faction I love to hate.
The problem is that you're making stuff up about them to justify hating them. Which is kind of a recurring theme.

More generally, this is the shift in government priorities I warned was going to happen once the election results came in. I'm not actually sure how much of the freak out over the underground is actual freak out and how much is just the result of some politico harping about it for campaign season. Spooky and random as it was, it wasn't the Temple Prime detonation by a long shot. Someone has become invested in that narrative... it probably got a group of people elected. Actually fallout from the explosion is almost irrelevant in this case.

Remember the guy loudly running on forcing everyone to have a 2+ year supply of food and water back ups inside(or at least very near) their apartments? No clue if that twit actually considered the logistics of generating that much food not to eat... or the massive space usage in random apartments to hold that much. Still managed to make a movement trying to force that into being.
Citation needed for this being a significant movement.

More broadly, tiberium vein mines are something we've been setting up all over the Blue Zones. If there's a significant risk of them drilling into liquid tiberium pockets and triggering kiloton explosions, that's actually a real threat to everyone near a vein mine... which is a lot of people.

I think your disdain for "politicals" sometimes causes you to invent things that the politicals supposedly did, or selectively forget the reasons why they were done.
 
Biggest thing for ZOCOM is time.
In the coming turn, five ZA factories are each going to deploy another tick. (2-10 turns for deployment, so either 12.5% or 11% depending on exactly how the deployment timers work.)
The last of our currently built ZA factories are going to finish deploying in 2065 Q3.

While more investment will help in the medium and longterm, there are no real immediate solutions other than trying to minimize expansion of ZOCOM operations.
 
We don't know exactly what Median Tiberium Refining does yet. It probably gives more STU's but its alien tech so it could also give more resources from the same amount of Tiberium so it might be another way to hit our income goals without stressing Zocom. I'd like to try to get any development done next turn so that we can see exactly what it does.
 
There are two things I think we can expect to get from Visitor refining methods: No leftovers, and a good return on STUs. I could see them being both safer and more dangerous. Even the Visitors probably don't want liquid tib detonating in their faces, so any means they have of preventing that might be baked into the process. On the other hand, they don't have to worry about casual contamination like we do.
 
We don't know exactly what Median Tiberium Refining does yet. It probably gives more STU's but its alien tech so it could also give more resources from the same amount of Tiberium so it might be another way to hit our income goals without stressing Zocom. I'd like to try to get any development done next turn so that we can see exactly what it does.
It may take a bit before we actually get an actionable tech from this. There's often a delay between when we roll for a tech and when we get a project to develop it into something suitable for mass production.

Which is all great yes, but I imagine the 2nd point is covered in part by the restoration bays which are noted to allow for genetic engineering of organisms with greater bay counts, and the 1st point is in the 'can be shipped up from Earth' category. If you want the spacers to have more diverse foods, build Lab Meat factories in Agri.
Making meat for spacers isn't a big deal for me, but I do think learning more about how to raise animals in space is important- not least because it's going to strongly synergize with long term efforts on species restoration.

The way I see it, learning how to deal with veterinary medicine complaints on a space station by working on pigs and chickens is a lot safer than learning how to do it with the laboriously cloned sole reproductively viable specimen of a new species.

What I don't understand is what the double experimental crops bay is for, compared to the high importance of the triple species restoration bay (which I approve of) and other desirable things.
 
We don't know exactly what Median Tiberium Refining does yet. It probably gives more STU's but its alien tech so it could also give more resources from the same amount of Tiberium so it might be another way to hit our income goals without stressing Zocom. I'd like to try to get any development done next turn so that we can see exactly what it does.
Well, when it hits anyway. Who knows what the timer on the Visitortech refining dev is (the QM does of course, but we don't).
 
Even if we can't use it until the next plan starts its still probably good. I don't think there's been much time when Zocom hasn't been stretched so any option to increase our income without them is useful. We're always going to want more income.
Even if its just STU's I'd still want it because they let us do get a lot more out of the resources we do have and give extra options.
 
As a curiosity, on a scale of 1-10 how do we all think we're doing? with 1 being bad and 10 being great.
i'd rank us somewhere in the 6's personally
Compared to OTL GDI? 11+ easy. Because you are actually, you know, not losing.
Is there any chance of getting more phases of Offshore Tiberium Harvesting? Naval confidence may not be high enough yet, so maybe not, but I figured it was worth asking.
There is actually. It is one of the programs that I am going to be bringing back next quarter.
 
Oh, cool!

Well, that's another way to get some RpT on the margins that doesn't bother ZOCOM one bit, because securing those tiberium mining operations isn't ZOCOM's problem until someone figures out how to equip a Zone Suit with water wings.
 
What I don't understand is what the double experimental crops bay is for, compared to the high importance of the triple species restoration bay (which I approve of) and other desirable things.
More of the experimental crops bays allow for more research projects that make new crops; we were practically told as much.
Multiple bays would both increase and speed the array of new crops, including programs for radiotrophic crops that could be grown for example on the lunar surface.
 
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I don't really know what to say about military procurement. Everyone wants everything now, if not yesterday. To me, that seems situation normal, like a lot of other things the people of GDI want done. I think what we've been doing is working, so I don't see a current reason to adjust our plans there. Maybe give a couple free dice? I certainly don't want to get complacent, but there's Zone Armor and Zerbite and Lasers and Particle Weapons and Particle Shields and Armor Alloys and- the list just goes on.

The only adjustment I feel we need is making room for MARVs, as we just need so many STUs.

Anyway, going into more detail about the Breakthroughs.
Tiberium-Core Missiles
The Brotherhood of Nod, for much of the last twenty years has fielded Tiberium Core missiles in tactical roles, most often from the racks of their stealth tanks. The missiles use a solid Tiberium core, mounted to a hot and fast burning rocket motor, and effectively act as kinetic kill vehicles, slamming a Tiberium dart into a target at supersonic to low hypersonic speeds. While building them is not particularly hard, there are two tricks that make things interesting. First is the seeker head, which has to deal with quite a bit of Tiberium radiation in trying to find its target, and offers the potential for noticeable improvements in that area. Second is the motor itself, which, while conventional, is fairly handy as a high speed tactical rocket motor.
Advanced Rocket Fuel
While GDI has broadly disinvested in chemical rocketry due to the advent of fusion flight, and more recently the prototyped impulse drive on the transorbital fighter program, there have been breakthroughs in the field, in part derived from the Corruptor, and other Visitor weapons and fuel systems. While the program as a whole is unlikely to unseat the fusion and impulse systems, it is far from worthless, with potential applications in terms of both solid and liquid fuel rocketry, with offering safer, higher energy, and less demanding fuels.
Individually, these are both pretty good. Not special, but certainly worthwhile. Together, this is probably enough to justify a new generation of missiles. Get that Inferno Gel and Binary Propellant Exploration done, our chemical science has needs!
Civilian Augmentics
The Initiative is facing an absolute quantum leap in cybernetic technologies, in part due to an improved understanding of Visitor technology. An eye prosthesis is likely to go from being a large scale procedure, requiring the use of an external neurohelmet, to one that is functionally an outpatient procedure, although acclimating to the eyeballs is still a lengthy process.
I'm glad we built those cyber-eye laboratories, I genuinely am. I like having a solid foundation for these kinds of breakthroughs to work off of. This is almost on the level of the Rock Lung treatment with how many cases of Flash Blindness we've been dealing with. This alone could get a ton of people back in the workforce, something we need quite badly. And it probably applies to a hell of a lot more besides.
Visitor EM Capacitors
There are a substantial number of technologies that rely on infusions of massive amounts of electrical charge over the course of a very short period of time, from computers and fusion reactors to lasers, railguns, electromagnetic forming, and nuclear arms. A conventional capacitor can store less than three kilojoules per kilogram, while prototype Visitor derived designs can store over seven. While the absolute energy load is still far less than a battery, let alone most fuels, the ability to rapidly store and draw more than double the total energy previous designs could at the same weight will make a significant difference in a wide selection of areas.
Not huge on its own, but definitely has uses. Ships and factories will love them, space habits as well.
Phased Plasma Munitions
There are many methods to cohere plasma. Both GDI and the Brotherhood of Nod have often used the beam rider methodology, creating a low resistance pathway via laser, because it is one of the simplest means and most reliable means to hold plasma in a high enough energy range to help. There are other methods, and the Visitors use a mix to produce phased plasma rounds, ones that manipulate the plasma itself to cohere bolts that both extend range, and provide increased penetration.
A great step towards making our plasma weapons practical. And particle weapons. And maybe the lasers, depending on how close to a particle something has to be for this to work.
Median Tiberium Refining
The Visitors' mastery of Tiberium makes the Brotherhood of Nod's look like they built their refineries in a cave, with a box of scraps, which, to be entirely fair, they often are. While GDI cannot mimic their technology, let alone improve on it, there are many lessons to be learned from their means of processing, although it is very likely that they are near-completely separate in terms of process from existing HG and IHG systems.
Huge. No idea how huge, but absolutely huge.
Scrin Articulation Systems
The Visitors used a wide array of biomimetic systems to create often frighteningly lifelike war machines, in many cases quite similar to the myomer systems that GDI and the Brotherhood of Nod use, but considerably more advanced. Smaller, lighter, more reliable, more durable, the articulation offers a combination of improvement in everything from mechs, to arms.
So this is useful in the civilian sector as well. It'll be great to be able to use this for our cybernetics. We have a lot of cybernetic stuff in the pipes, especially from Nod. It'll be interesting to see how all that comes together.

It also occurs to me that, combining this with Nod's Fast Twitch Myomer, our existing Jump Jets and the Advanced Rocket Fuels, our mechs will be able to jump to space by the time we're done researching.
Particle Shields
While the Visitor shields proper are still beyond GDI's understanding, multiple breakthroughs have been made in producing a high power stressed shield, using elements from the Brotherhood of Nod, GDI's own research including the Firestorm Project, and nearly every last functional shield projector that remains from the Visitors' attack over a decade ago. The results so far are expensive, but at least in theory capable of taking hits from nearly anything in the Brotherhood tactical arsenal, although far short of most operational, let alone higher level munitions.
So lots of technology has finally all come together to make a less good version of what the alien assholes had.

Nah I kid this is cool. I'm hoping we can eventually use the technology we'd already developed to push beyond what the Scrin had.
With the surprise announcement of advanced, Visitor derived Tiberium refining methodologies however, there are very open questions about the future of the refit program, as it appears that the new methodology outstrips HG and IHG methods, and requires substantially different processing methodologies, although they are likely to be extremely STU intensive, although the final form is far from being completed.
So it's not a better version of what we have, but a different one. Interesting. So long as it makes STUs I'm all for it.
The practical spike on the other hand, is actually far safer. It is not simply an accelerator strapped to a spike. It is using technology from the Visitors to summon Tiberium towards the surface, not accelerate its spread. While the differences from the standpoint of surface abatement are mostly academic, the technical differences are fundamentally vital to making a product that even the most risk-averse of Treasuries would be willing to field. Even so, there are significant concerns about the safety of the program, both in terms of the safety of the systems themselves, and their safety from the Initiative public.
Nice, that's exactly what we wanted.
These fighters have been given the designation of ASF-1 Sabers.
Heeeey, a Halo reference! That's nice, I have fond memories of playing Reach.
Oh, cool!

Well, that's another way to get some RpT on the margins that doesn't bother ZOCOM one bit, because securing those tiberium mining operations isn't ZOCOM's problem until someone figures out how to equip a Zone Suit with water wings.
The Navy does want Zone Suits, yes.


[X] Plan Having Tasted The Fruit, Nothing Shall Be Impossible For Them v2

I'm with Simon in that I'd like to have a third Species Restoration Bay, but honestly I'm not sure when we're even going to build the first one. And Dr. Bora is being all No Fun Allowed guy by reminding us that Nod gets a cut of the Fun plants. He's still more then worth it for the extra Agriculture dice, but man. At least this means his bonus applies to those projects. The Animal Husbandry bay is a must for me, as is the High Efficiency Void Crops Bay. Strangely though, I'm coming around to the Core Crops Bay given it's stated purpose. Being able to orbital drop food on people sounds both cool and very fucking funny. Or another Fruiticulture Bay. Trees need lots of everything, and more space for them is also good. I'm also kinda okay with the Habitation bay. So I suppose I'm not that picky on what the Seventh bay should be.
 
More of the experimental crops bays allow for more research projects that make new crops; we were practically told as much.
I feel like we might hit diminishing returns pretty fast there. Personally I'd much rather have a third species restoration bay than a second experimental crops bay, and I'd also rather have an animal husbandry bay for the synergy for related reasons.

(Again, because I think it's a lot safer for us to learn the basics of space veterinary medicine on cows than on our first cloned hippopotamus or something)

Strangely though, I'm coming around to the Core Crops Bay given it's stated purpose. Being able to orbital drop food on people sounds both cool and very fucking funny.
We already have +15 Food worth of production capacity in Shala's main five-phase construction.
 
[X] Plan Having Tasted The Fruit, Nothing Shall Be Impossible For Them v2

I love playing Seo. Go Science!
 
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