Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
If we're setting future expectations here, going as low as medium might be a good idea. Space doesn't actually want for...space. It just wants for delta-v, construction, and resource availability. The first is solved by gravity engines and portals. The last could be solved by tiberium...
So the bottleneck is construction, not our housing density. If we can just get to one lunar arcology we can fill it to the brim with construction workers and start making the others more easily.
So the bottleneck is construction, not our housing density. If we can just get to one lunar arcology we can fill it to the brim with construction workers and start making the others more easily.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I'm not so sure. The bottleneck we hit wasn't "you don't have enough mining bases on the moon," it was "we don't really know what we're doing when it comes to building actual diversified communities up in space."
Well, (bad news) we don't know how long the Earth has.
And even planning out our "scale of construction" timetable for space colonies is infeasible because we're (thankfully) actually doing our best and how much we can accomplish is still increasing with each passing year. The timetable for how many space colony spaces we could create in a panic-build from 2065 to 2070 is looking a good deal rosier than it would have if we'd run the same estimates in 2058, for instance.
So, in objective reality, we don't actually have the schedule you'd be wanting to tell people that we have. It doesn't exist. We may or may not have plenty of time. We may or may not be building enough for everyone. And importantly, the public is at least broadly aware of the dangers of tiberium eating the planet. They're not going to suddenly forget they know this and be lulled into a false sense of security because we build big comfy space palaces and say "we're not in a hurry here, so we can afford to do this!"
...
We can try to send whatever message we like to GDI's voting public. They're not stupid. They'll notice the contradiction between "factually, we have no compelling reason to expect the Earth to last longer than another 20-50 years" and "GDI doesn't seem to be in any hurry to develop high-density space housing that can be built economically and in quickly." There is, then, a very real danger that they will take us at our word- they will decide that we are not in a hurry, but that we should be, because they want their children to live more than they want their children to live specifically in a nice apartment.
This isn't an unfounded accusation or over-exaggeration on my part. I am using pieces of information we literally absolutely know that GDI citizens in-game already have to draw straightforward conclusions.
I think realistically it will have to wait for the reasonable assurance that we aren't going to be trying to evacuate as much of Earth's population as will fit into these colonies within the next generation or two. Until then, our need to be prepared for the worst partially overrides our ability to be luxury-loving.
The thing is, if we're building all the other lunar cities to the same template as the first one, we'll have 2x or 3x times as much actual work to do building them if they're built to a low-density template. That's still a factor farther down the line; it doesn't go away as soon as you start your exponential growth curve, and it tends to damp down the multiplier effects that really let that growth curve take off in the first place.
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- Location
- USA
True.
Is there anything we can actually do about it?
I know that services project with the colleges improves labor somehow. Are there any other moves we can make?
Oh, absolutely.
To clarify what I meant. We might be able to fit in some non essential projects after the essential ones.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I don't think there are any things we haven't already pushed the button for, or planning to push the button for soon. More AEVAs might help or unlock something that helps. North Boston Phase 5 might lead to more extensive and ubiquitous automation support. I suspect Aberdeen won't help much, at least not in ways that North Boston won't help as much or more.
- Location
- Most likely California
I don't really see the appeal of VHD Housing. I think the primary reasoning that been bought up as just in-case of the worst case scenario of needing to do mass-evac, and to a lesser extant using them as temporary housing for people moving to the Lunar and other extraterrestrial colonies. But those seem like they're trying to solve other problems than what Columbia and the housing bays are actually meant for, a testbed for long-term orbital habitation.
The people that are going to live in Columbia are probably going to spend their lives there permanently, but the VHD description explicitly says it won't be "particularly desirable in the long run". Building them solely for the reason of mass-evac seems like making a choice that will lead to problems with Columbia's population later on to address a merely possible scenario that seems far from imminent. Is this because of the NAT1 on vein mines, and the resulting LT explosion? I could see that being a reason in-universe, but I don't think I've seen it bought up in-thread.
The people that are going to live in Columbia are probably going to spend their lives there permanently, but the VHD description explicitly says it won't be "particularly desirable in the long run". Building them solely for the reason of mass-evac seems like making a choice that will lead to problems with Columbia's population later on to address a merely possible scenario that seems far from imminent. Is this because of the NAT1 on vein mines, and the resulting LT explosion? I could see that being a reason in-universe, but I don't think I've seen it bought up in-thread.
BoSPaladin
The Paladin
'space palaces'
Right, because not going for maximal sardine cans= space palaces. But fine. If you want to play it like that then I declare high density housing to be floating slums and fire hazard deathtraps.
If you're actually that concerned about tiberium eating the planet, then why 'waste' time on arcologies and other high quality housing on earth? We can get it on earth where it's gonna be eaten by tiberium but not in space? Why spend time and effort on reforestation projects if it's all going to be wasted effort in 20-50 years anyway?
And the solution, to not having enough housing in space isn't to build floating slums and fire hazard deathtraps. But to invest more free dice into orbital. Or if we need to slow down tiberium, then to invest more free dice in tiberium for abatement.
Or they could draw the conclusion that since GDI and nod are working together to abate tiberium. Working on inhibitors and even trying to restore the soil that GDI intends to stay and reclaim the planet from tiberium.
It's possible that planning started at that point, but finalized plans were waiting on the full completion in case additional changes were needed based on lessons learned or bays or tech developments. Makes sense, particularly given that we partially disassembled Shala in order to fit in a 7th bay as a result of U-series alloys.
Also, given the very recent liquid tib detonation visible from orbit, we might look like Frank Drebin trying to tell people that there's nothing to see... while standing in front of a burning fireworks store and fireworks are launching out the roof behind him.
I had been using NBCT myself, with the idea that Tiberium and TW1 shortcircuited the rationale/timing that got R added to the acronym. I guess I need to go through all my google docs and stuff here to switch it over to CBRNT.
Though to be fair, Nod could've scrounged up material from wrecked Temples or the like and employed a few dirty bombs between TW1 and TW2. I guess it could go either way on the acronym (or it went to NBCT in the late 90s during TW1 then changed to CBRNT by the start of TW2).
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The thing is, Columbia is a testbed, but what it's a testbed of depends on what our foreseeable needs are.
If Kane coughs up the TCN blueprints in, say, 2066, and we're free to just chug along building it, then the future of our space presence is going to look a certain way. The priority will be on making sure that the space presence can mostly support itself (since we don't want to be spending TCN budget on space colonization), and on making it genuinely comfortable and a good experience for everyone involved.
If Kane does not cough up the TCN blueprints, and in-character we don't know the TCN can exist, then the future of our space presence is very likely to eventually involve a mass evacuation from Earth. In which case our focus is on being able to expand that presence very quickly and pack as many people in as possible, with the hope of making it comfortable at some distant future date, but with the priority of saving as many people as possible in the present moment because it's better for X million people to live comfortably (with everyone else dying) than for half that many to live (with everyone else dying) comfortably.
And because in-character and out of character we don't strictly know which situation we're facing, there's a real need to be prepared either way.
Mass evacuation is something some of GDI's own citizens consider inevitable, and many consider to be at least a realistic danger. Some GDI voters think mass evacuation plans are important enough that it will actively anger them if we take moves that signal that we aren't preparing for it. This is why Starbound opposes the low-density bay: because they are a political party that is specifically trying to prepare for mass evacuation, and the low-density bay works against that.
If we're actually dealing with the mass evacuation prospect, doing some projects to prepare for it is important.
Low density space housing, in particular, may not seem palatial to you but is definitely going to mean much fewer seats in space housing. Given that there is already in-universe rhetoric about GDI building 'palatial' space accommodations while ignoring that the vast majority of the population will be left to rot on the ground, this rhetoric will only be amplified by deliberate efforts to build maximally comfy and pleasant (but expensive and low-density) space housing.
Because GDI's population has many goals and desires, some of them conflicting, and hasn't given up hope of the ship being saved, but does want to see work being done on the liferafts.
Deliberately not working on something that could realistically be turned into liferafts, in favor of something pleasant and comfortable for a much smaller number of people, will still ring alarm bells.
I strongly agree.
I think it is deeply counterproductive and would show shocking detachment from the public's welfare, interests, and actual thought processes to be focused on low-density space housing at this time. It's very much in keeping with a mindset of "screw political oversight, screw democratic forms of government, we do what we want and we rule you," but it's not so consistent with "the Treasury builds what people want it to build."
Oh I know that, I am saying that it would be good if we did bring fungus bar production to space it has got to taste better than CRP.
You do know we where talking about yellow zone fortress towns right?
[x] Plan A Good Spread
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
What I'm saying is that I'm pretty sure the bulk of the population that otherwise might live in those fortresses has already moved to an apartment or arcology built in the same area several years later when the security situation improved. Or is about to do so if we finish this arcology wave.
- Location
- USA
I might be misunderstanding things but with the nat 100 on Shala and going from 6 to 7 bays, does that mean we can now just do all the bay options?
That seems like kind of a big deal. In this one area we can take every opportunity and thus unlock every future tech. Enterprise and Columbia are going to miss out on some things because just not enough room, but not Shala!
That seems like kind of a big deal. In this one area we can take every opportunity and thus unlock every future tech. Enterprise and Columbia are going to miss out on some things because just not enough room, but not Shala!
- Location
- Wall Gazing
It is a big deal, but the Bay we were likely originally likely to leave out was the Core Crops Bay, and that is mostly just more food in orbit with little extra research and development beyond what we are already getting from Shala itself.
That itself isn't a bad thing as it will give us a more robust food supply in orbit, something that we do want to have for the food security and to ease logistics.
If we had to mass lift people we want the food availability to already be there and not still be on the surface.
Oh so your agreeing with me. Didn't catch that.
- Location
- Somewhere in the area
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
[X] Plan Space Health Service
I think people are underestimating the benefits of having specialized medical care for space-related issues established in space before we start constructing the rest of our orbital habitats and extraterrestrial colonies.
I think people are underestimating the benefits of having specialized medical care for space-related issues established in space before we start constructing the rest of our orbital habitats and extraterrestrial colonies.
[X] Plan Space Health Service
I'd still rather go down to medium density, but this works.
Very high density produces a lot more problems than just a lower quality of life, regardless of how large of a hit that is. Human beings are a danger to each other. It's all well and good when you have spacer professionals, largely academic and military people who have high levels of discipline and can see the bigger picture. It's going to get a lot messier once it's populations of random civilians, children, ex-NOD, etc. Hell, current NOD if the diplomatic efforts bear fruit.
I've seen enough people acting irrationally on an airplane parked on the ground to know you don't want them doing that in a spaceside environment. It'd be easy for things to spiral out of control. More space produces less stress, and gives more room for error.
I'd still rather go down to medium density, but this works.
Very high density produces a lot more problems than just a lower quality of life, regardless of how large of a hit that is. Human beings are a danger to each other. It's all well and good when you have spacer professionals, largely academic and military people who have high levels of discipline and can see the bigger picture. It's going to get a lot messier once it's populations of random civilians, children, ex-NOD, etc. Hell, current NOD if the diplomatic efforts bear fruit.
I've seen enough people acting irrationally on an airplane parked on the ground to know you don't want them doing that in a spaceside environment. It'd be easy for things to spiral out of control. More space produces less stress, and gives more room for error.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yes, but I don't think that refusing to try that even in a prototype is going to make things better in that respect.
It's like the communal housing experiments we did. The first wave of them did not go well at all and I'm not sure the second did either (wasn't there a second?), but we at least learned where the limits are and were able to address them in the actually useful communal housing arcology project.
There's a pretty significant difference between communal living structures and "cramped accommodations even by the standards of late 20th century space exploration." That's an objective amount of space, and it ain't much - less than the International Space Station's per person.
Frankly, I don't think even the average professional spacer could handle being in scaled up but cut down ISS conditions. Others are going to snap, and in an environment that it sounds like there is about zero margin of error.
We can throw a lot of people up into space if we need to, but it's likely to get them killed if done like this. Even if Nod hypothetically might be ordered not to attack these, the Visitors absolutely would, and to great effect. This is a bet that needs to be hedged, not maximized.
Frankly, I don't think even the average professional spacer could handle being in scaled up but cut down ISS conditions. Others are going to snap, and in an environment that it sounds like there is about zero margin of error.
We can throw a lot of people up into space if we need to, but it's likely to get them killed if done like this. Even if Nod hypothetically might be ordered not to attack these, the Visitors absolutely would, and to great effect. This is a bet that needs to be hedged, not maximized.
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Ace of Scarabs
Mechanoid Pilot
- Location
- Singapore
[X] Plan Space Health Service