[X] Decommission at 7 years (medium PS penalties if energy shortage)

Hmm...

It definitely seems like updated vehicles are in more demand now.

I was thinking we should do both phases of alloys then repulsorplates but now I'm thinking to do the next alloy phase to finish the discounts then doing repulsorplates so we can start developing the new vehicles.

If I understand the last phase of alloys correctly we would be missing out on some income and whatever boost the capstone gives us and mining but only for a turn.

So we spend the next two turns wrapping up commitments in military then move right into new vehicle designs.
 
Last edited:
[X] Decommission at 7 years (medium PS penalties if energy shortage)
 
Attempts to explain the methodology have gone, on average, fairly poorly, as the Deltas trained to do it have done so by means of ritual and mnemonics, using the still poorly understood powers over Tiberium to reshape it to their will.
Slowly but surely, we're turning Tiberium into Originium expy
 
I think we need to prioritize the Set 2 zone armor plants as being at least co-equal with the new vehicle factories.

There's a reason why we got a "build way more than six zone armor factories" commitment, but a "develop and deploy next-generation main battle tank" commitment option wasn't even on the table.

In the long term, yes, in the short term, it's not the MBTs we need to upgrade to work with Zone Armour (although the Predator does need replacement), it's the IFVs that we need to make play nice with ZAI formations, especially now that we are starting to move the entire infantry force over to Zone Armour instead of just ZOCOM, which often operated very light on vehicles because of the poor terrain of the Red Zones.

Do ZOCOM use APCs?
They can't be using those ones now, as they don't fit zone armor.

They do, just very uncomfortably. A new IFV design would work better.
 
TBH, to finish Boston without any major trouble we need to shelve either Alloys 6 or Repulsorplates.

Would prefer to shelve Alloys, we have other ways of increasing income.
Oh? I haven't done a rigorous dice cost analysis there in some time. Have you run the numbers? Cool. Can you run them by me?

Big Logistics boost Is probably preferable ATM. Plus long-term benefits.
Honestly, the +Logistics is the least of my reasons for wanting the repulsorplate deployment. We have pretty solid Logistics, we have reason to expect that stat to increase by +13 in the near future as we finally finish the suborbital shuttles, and Karachi is hopefully going to help too. Unless we intend to build a whole bunch of conventional glacier mines (and there's no obvious reason we should), or fight World War 7 some time soon (and I hope not) it's really not something we need to worry about right now.

It's the military and technological benefits that have me interested.

Looks like we are finally looking down the hard timeline for getting 2CCF online.

Aside from the 9 phases of CCF plants we built (16*9 = 144 Energy) we also constructed the precursor plants of:
-Fusion Power Prototype: 1 Energy in Q3 2055 (The first Fusion plant)
-Fusion Peaker Plants: 4 Energy in Q1 2056 (The single sub plant component for the CCF design)
-Synchronized Cycle Fusion Plants: 8 Energy in Q1 2057 (The prototype for the CCF design)
Therefore there were a total of 1+4+8+144 = 157 Energy from CCF and precursor plants. Therefore we need to produce 156 Energy in 6.5 or 7 years to replace the stuff that is going to go offline.
For the 7 year case that is 28 turns and therefore would mean an average 5.57 Energy per turn needed. 4 of that is covered by the DEA and therefore we would need 1.57 Energy per turn.
For the 6.5 year case that is 26 turns and therefore would mean an average 6 Energy per turn needed. 4 of that is covered by the DEA and therefore we would need 2 Energy per turn.

2CCF is approximately 4 dice needed per phase on average, and produces 19 Energy. Therefore, that is roughly 4.75 Energy per die. Therefore on average as long as we invested at least 1 die per turn into 2CCF, we should be good for both the 6.5 year and 7 year goals.

Personally I think we should stick to a stable 1-2 dice on 2CCF to give us a bit of a buffer and for use in Energy consuming projects.
You're slightly underestimating the problem here (though two dice on fusion plants should still mostly carry us).

Remember, we built most of the fusion plants in a gigantic surge during the Regency War- we finished five phases in six turns, actually. This was tapering off in early 2061, with as I recall a last phase in 2061Q4. As such, our effective deadline for getting most of that -156 Energy shortfall dealt with is about, oh... 2-3 turns, roughly less in practice than if we treated it as "we're gonna lose all that energy in one big thwack on the expiry date of the last plant."

I think Rakuhn did a good analysis on this, though something about it makes my brain hurt a bit.

The last line is Phase 4 and it costs STUs. I somewhat expected the increase in Energy costs for Phase 4, but the STU cost is an unanticipated surprise. I guess it shouldn't have been though, we haven't built the Infernium Refits yet.
I was kind of mentally braced for it, because we're explicitly doing a ton of rollout of what are explicitly modern infernium disco ball lasers. If anything, it's a pleasant surprise that we could build that many air defense infernium lasers for 'only' half the STU cost of refitting the whole navy with the disco balls.

I'd have naively expected the STU cost of SADN to be the one that totaled -2 STU and the cost of the naval laser refits to be -1 STU.

Huh. I was expecting more about the newer cities getting connected, military supply lines, and expanding into red zones to assist the harvesting.

Guess stuff has been ticking along in the background and it doesn't have the same impact it would have had several turns ago.
I don't think this was us actually completing a phase, so we can't expect miracles.

I thought fixing lactose intolerance was one of the first things we did when we did human genome editing?
Yeah, but that doesn't mean we actually went in and edited everyone's DNA. That would have been an insanely massive project, and there'd be huge numbers of people mad at us if we did it in a high-handed way.

...crap. That's a big problem.

...

Yeah, we should probably do the Tiberium growth thing. We need some new options.
Yeah, it'd definitely be good to have some sense of the "manual control" option for tiberium. If we're lucky, the Scrin "suction hose" apparatus can be separated from the "make tiberium grow faster" apparatus; the fact that we were able to modify our inhibitors to stop pushing the tiberium underground is promising along these lines. But yeah, we should do the enhanced growth spikes, because it turns out they don't only enhance growth.

Do ZOCOM use APCs?
They can't be using those ones now, as they don't fit zone armor.
Maybe it would help them greatly to have access to them, for exactly that reason.

In the long term, yes, in the short term, it's not the MBTs we need to upgrade to work with Zone Armour (although the Predator does need replacement), it's the IFVs that we need to make play nice with ZAI formations, especially now that we are starting to move the entire infantry force over to Zone Armour instead of just ZOCOM, which often operated very light on vehicles because of the poor terrain of the Red Zones.
Prioritizing IFVs over tanks frankly makes sense, yes. On the other hand, if we're really trying to optimize for ZOCOM's needs, we need grav-lev hover APCs, and the planning for this starts getting more ambitious. Something to bear in mind.

It's still not a project where I expect to be able to seriously contemplate deployment until 2064 or later, and I want to make sure we leave some wiggle room for MARVs in 2064 because we're probably not going to have time in early 2065 while Karachi is ongoing.
 
Last edited:
Maybe we aren't building that many infernium lasers for SADN 4.
The project designs adapt to the available STUs, and availability has diminished recently.
This may be a cut back version that only includes infernium lasers where strictly vital. A full rollout may now be in a phase 5 which won't appear until STU supply improves.
We'll need to wait for the description.
(And perhaps an update on what our STU budget actually is, but I think it should read at +6 now. 28 production, 22 consumption.)
 
Oh? I haven't done a rigorous dice cost analysis there in some time. Have you run the numbers? Cool. Can you run them by me?

Boston after Alloys 5 is 1800 project ~ 21-23 Dice project.

Really flawed math, but without Free dice and with 2 dice on Fusion, so we need ~ 7 Qs.

Just spitballing here.

With Free dice… will we have Free dice? We might be forced to invest those in Orbital.
 
Last edited:
It was costing us 2 STU per phase, the one we finished and the remaining 2 are now 1 STU per phase, hopefully we can retrofit the previous stages to free up some STU
You won't be able to do that. I debated between a two and a three STU discount, went with three, but six would have been far too much.
OK I'm having trouble understanding this. What exactly is the reputation of the VIII Bomber Command that it is used as the standard for missing?
They had a bad habit of trying for massive air raids on critical nazi war materials sites, and doing effectively no damage to the actual site.
 
They had a bad habit of trying for massive air raids on critical nazi war materials sites, and doing effectively no damage to the actual site.
To expand on this, they were trying to hit by dropping bombs from several miles up in the air, and for a variety of reasons they were regularly missing the target by several miles. This was partly due to doctrinal issues and partly due to the technological limitations of the era, but yes, they'd typically end up shotgunning their bombs all over the general urban area.

They could miss a Scrin threshold tower. That says a lot about them.
 
Well, the Red Zone MARVs (the ones I, for one, want most) don't complicate Nod's life nearly so much. The Yellow Zone MARVs, which do... Well, the problem we've seen is that Nod has the temptation to go nuclear if they're pushed much harder.

Agreed. I think Red zone should be the focus and then we need to look at how we implement Yellow Zones carefully. There's probably a few that won't set off Nod and we can grab those. After that? Need to be very diplomatic about it and not touch off a war. I know we've avoided Blue zone MARVs but we might actually need to look into them a bit before completing the network. Or this will all be moot due to TCN. Still I'd much rather take steps to have something in case the TCN just doesn't appear.

Also I should clarify. When I say enemy I don't just mean Nod. The aliens are still camped out there on the edge of the system. The assumption is that we'll need to out there and push them off. But nothing stops them from hitting us with a spoiling raid or deciding it's better to die on Earth than in their base. MARVs in this case are further complications, additional targets and backstops to clean up the damage such alien attacks would do to the biosphere. As I'd expect another incursion to see decades of push back against Tiberium to be setback.
 
Really, the key seems to be:
-With DAE+1 die Fusion (9.5 Energy), we net +2 Energy/turn
-If we spend more than 2 Energy in a turn, we'll want another Fusion die (+5.5 Energy/die) to keep ahead

The numbers are somewhat better if we go for 7 years instead of 6 (and folding in Peaker plants under the current half phase of Fusion)
-6.5 years (144/20) = ~7.2 Energy/turn.
-7 years (144/22) = ~6.5 Energy/turn.

Other ways to improve the rate:
-Phase 5 alloys
-Phase 4 Bergen, and Fusion mk 2.5
 
[X] Decommission at 7 years (medium PS penalties if energy shortage)

As for HI priorities, I continue to push for North Boston, partly because it's a Plan goal, and partly for the tasty capstone benefits. I'm open to finishing Alloys Phase 6 prior, or perhaps the phase 2 Repulsorplate factories, but that second one is a deployment action rather than development, so I don't believe it needs to be done before other things like Transorbital Fighter development which are likely to incorporate repulsortech.
 
[X] Decommission at 7 years (medium PS penalties if energy shortage)

As for HI priorities, I continue to push for North Boston, partly because it's a Plan goal, and partly for the tasty capstone benefits. I'm open to finishing Alloys Phase 6 prior, or perhaps the phase 2 Repulsorplate factories, but that second one is a deployment action rather than development, so I don't believe it needs to be done before other things like Transorbital Fighter development which are likely to incorporate repulsortech.
We probably want to finish our tib refinery refits to cover the STU cost of the Repulsorplate factories but given North Boston is a plan goal I would say start pushing that once we finish Alloy 5, Alloy 6 we can circle back to at end of plan (ideally finish it Q3/Q4 of the last year) so we can increase GDI income for the redistrubtion so all the departments get a boost, plus our recovery efforts will produce more.
 
Prioritizing IFVs over tanks frankly makes sense, yes. On the other hand, if we're really trying to optimize for ZOCOM's needs, we need grav-lev hover APCs, and the planning for this starts getting more ambitious. Something to bear in mind.

It's still not a project where I expect to be able to seriously contemplate deployment until 2064 or later, and I want to make sure we leave some wiggle room for MARVs in 2064 because we're probably not going to have time in early 2065 while Karachi is ongoing.

You misinterpreted what I said.

We need ZA compatible IFVs not for ZOCOM, but for the Ground Forces. ZOCOM just happens to benefit along with it.

Mechanized warfare kinda depends on being able to move your troops around in armoured cans with big guns, you know? Although I wouldn't be too surprised if we switch back to an APC instead, if only in terms of relative firepower. The difference between an APC and an IFV is, after all, that the APC can suppress enemy infantry in light fortifications but is too thin skinned to be stuck into the fighting, whereas the IFV can effectively engage enemy vehicles and strongpoints, and destroy them, or at least force them to back off or suppress them.

But Zone Armour generally carries weapons capable of doing the same thing as their baseline equipment across the entire squad, rather than as a specialist/heavy weapon.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top