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Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition

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I think it's important to remember that while (department) dice are indicating what the department is capable, Free dice are generalist but capable.

Putting 1 or 2 free dice on a department or project puts some strain on the department, but nothing quite equals every free die, where all resources are marshaled for the effort, even if that means people who aren't exactly qualified, or by overloading every part of the supply line.

We saw some of this during the Tib Stabilizer rush, where we worked the fusion shuttles so hard that we lost fusion dice because the frames and drives were spent and not enough time was available for maintenance.

No doubt Orbital is expanding its space construction crews, but an aggressive space construction effort, especially on single projects, does imply that parts of the staffing and supply line are being strained.
 
I think Simon is getting into the weeds of an issue that is probably better explored in a philosophy thread. As a mental exercise it has merit, but in this thread him and the rest of the player base know about the TCN. It can't not be acknowledged.

So to talk about something else, @Simon_Jester can I convince you to put the die on the diary farm on any other project in Agriculture you like? I really think it would benefit getting done one turn later, just so it's fresher in the voting public's minds.
 
Because I'm bored and taking ideas onboard, I present to you a new plan:

[X] Plan Karachi Shield Alloys v2
-[X] Infrastructure (5/5 dice, +27, 105R)
--[X] Suborbital Shuttle Service (Phase 2+3) 110/395 3 dice 75R 24%
--[X] Rail Network Construction Campaigns (Phase 5) 39/280 2 dice 30R 4%
-[X] Heavy Industry (5/5 dice + 2 Free, +34, 265R)
--[X] U Series Alloy Foundries (Phase 4) 32/510 6 dice 240R 73%
--[X] Second Generation Repulsorplate Factories (New) 0/595 1 dice 25R
-[X] Light and Chemical Industry (4/4 dice, +29, 80R)
--[X] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 5) 553/1120 4 dice 80R
-[X] Agriculture (6/6 dice, +29, 65R)
--[X] Agriculture Mechanization Projects (Phase 2) 83/235 2 dice 30R 70%
--[X] Dairy Ranches (Phase 2) 163/190 1 die 20R 100%
--[X] Reforestation Campaign Preparations (Phase 1) 0/835 3 dice 15R
-[X] Tiberium (7/7 dice, +39, 205R)
--[X] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 4+5) 93/440 3 dice 75R 11%
--[X] Improved Hewlett Gardener Refits (Phase 2) 65/230 2 dice 70R 75%
--[X] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-7 Korea) 49/85 1 die 30R 100%
--[X] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-4 Southeast Arabia) 0/85 1 die 30R 70%
-[X] Orbital (7/7 dice + 2 Free + Erewhon , +34, 210R)
--[X] GDSS Shala (Phase 4) 229/520 4 dice 80R 92%
--[X] GDSS Columbia (Phase 5) 324/1045 4 dice 80R
--[X] Gravitic Shipyard 392/425 1 die 30R 100%
--[X] Fusion Shipyard 446/475 E die 20R 86%
-[X] Services (4/4 dice, +35, 90R)
--[X] Human Augmentation Programs (New) 0/120 1 die 30R 36%
--[X] University Program Updates (New) 0/255 2 dice 30R 5%
--[X] Autodoc Systems Development (New) 52/120 1 die 30R 88%
-[X] Military (7/7 dice + 2 Free, +31, 185R)
--[X] Ground Forces Zone Armor (Set 1) (Phase 6) 127/160 1 die 20R 100%
--[X] Strategic Area Defense Networks (Phase 2+3) 7 dice 140R 96%
--[X] Combat Laser Development 38/80 1 die 25R 100%
-[X] Bureaucracy
--[X] Hand Off Capital Goods to Market 1 die auto
–-[X] Hand Off 10 Capital Goods
--[X] Transfer Funding to InOps
--[X] Expand Grants Programs 1 die auto
---[X] 30 resources in grants.
--[X] Interdepartmental Favors
---[X] Diplomatic Corps: Complete all phases of Coordinated Abatement by end of Plan: +5 Political Support
---[X] Housing: Complete all three phases of Postwar Housing Refits and 1 phase of Rail Network Construction. +2 Political Support

Total cost: 1295/1300

With this one I'm looking to maximize our transportation networks for when Karachi comes or Krukov attacks - one of the noted problems we had with him last war was simply not being able to exploit our tactical superiority because of lack of transport. I also removed the AA dice from Orbital, upgraded the Grav Yard dice to a full one, and used the two Bureaucracy dice to expand the grants and do the favors.

The old one, for reference, and to not mess up the tallybot, and because I haven't actually abandoned it:

[X] Plan Karachi Shield Alloys
-[X] Infrastructure (5/5 dice, +27, 90R)
--[X] Suborbital Shuttle Service (Phase 2+3) 110/395 3 dice 75R 24%
--[X] Postwar Housing Refits (Phase 1) 0/170 2 dice 20R 51%
-[X] Heavy Industry (5/5 dice + 2 Free, +34, 265R)
--[X] U Series Alloy Foundries (Phase 4) 32/510 6 dice 240R 73%
--[X] Second Generation Repulsorplate Factories (New) 0/595 1 dice 25R
-[X] Light and Chemical Industry (4/4 dice, +29, 80R)
--[X] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 5) 553/1120 4 dice 80R
-[X] Agriculture (6/6 dice, +29, 65R)
--[X] Agriculture Mechanization Projects (Phase 2) 83/235 2 dice 30R 70%
--[X] Dairy Ranches (Phase 2) 163/190 1 die 20R 100%
--[X] Reforestation Campaign Preparations (Phase 1) 0/835 3 dice 15R
-[X] Tiberium (7/7 dice, +39, 200R)
--[X] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 4+5) 93/440 4 dice 100R 67%
--[X] Improved Hewlett Gardener Refits (Phase 2) 65/230 2 dice 70R 75%
--[X] Tiberium Inhibitor Deployment (BZ-7) 49/85 1 die 30R 100%
-[X] Orbital (7/7 dice + 2 Free + Erewhon + AA, +34, 230R)
--[X] GDSS Shala (Phase 4) 229/520 4 dice 80R 92%
--[X] GDSS Columbia (Phase 5) 324/1045 5 dice 100R
--[X] Gravitic Shipyard 392/425 AA die 30R 82%
--[X] Fusion Shipyard 446/475 E die 20R 86%
-[X] Services (4/4 dice, +35, 90R)
--[X] Human Augmentation Programs (New) 0/120 1 die 30R 36%
--[X] University Program Updates (New) 0/255 2 dice 30R 5%
--[X] Autodoc Systems Development (New) 52/120 1 die 30R 88%
-[X] Military (7/7 dice + 2 Free, +31, 185R)
--[X] Ground Forces Zone Armor (Set 1) (Phase 6) 127/160 1 die 20R 100%
--[X] Strategic Area Defense Networks (Phase 2+3) 7 dice 140R 96%
--[X] Combat Laser Development 38/80 1 die 25R 100%
-[X] Bureaucracy
--[X] Hand Off Capital Goods to Market 1 die auto
–-[X] Hand Off 10 Capital Goods
--[X] Transfer Funding to InOps
--[X] Administrative Assistance (Orbital)
 
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Nottheunmaker said:
I think Simon is getting into the weeds of an issue that is probably better explored in a philosophy thread. As a mental exercise it has merit, but in this thread him and the rest of the player base know about the TCN. It can't not be acknowledged.
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Yeah, but on the other hand it does address the in-character motivations of (for instance) Starbound party leaders. This is an issue where I can very much see why the perceived urgency would motivate them to think a certain way, for reasons other than cynical political gain.

Nottheunmaker said:
So to talk about something else, @Simon_Jester can I convince you to put the die on the diary farm on any other project in Agriculture you like? I really think it would benefit getting done one turn later, just so it's fresher in the voting public's minds.
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The way I see it, the voters have learned from the existing Phase 1 of the dairy ranches that us just building the ranching domes doesn't automatically mean milk becomes widely available right away. Dairy cows take time to start producing, after all, and dairy herds take considerable time to build up.

I don't think the delay will make a statistically significant difference in public opinion during the runup. If the politicians who actually have that polling data thought it would, there'd probably be someone asking us to promise to complete Phase 3 before election day or something.
 
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I'll probably end up voting for something with hospital bay, not because I'm all broken up about people dying in space but just out of concern for what pushing the attrition rate does to the (presumably limited) population of skilled zero-G construction labour.
 
Khop said:
I'll probably end up voting for something with hospital bay, not because I'm all broken up about people dying in space but just out of concern for what pushing the attrition rate does to the (presumably limited) population of skilled zero-G construction labour.
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Plan Attempting to Storm the Heavens, OSHA Compliant has the hospital bay. Plan Attempting Strategic Defense and Inhibition doesn't have the hospital bay, but also doesn't push our orbital construction efforts so hard that it makes the hospital bay all that likely to be needed badly.
 
In all fairness, I don't really give a shit about the TCN. I'll push tib abatement efforts to buy as much time as possible for us to develop it ourselves, and support maximum safe levels of space expansion efforts (also portal tech development) to do our best to provide a back up plan in case we can't develop a TCN.

Fuck any thoughts of "well, at some point Kane will show up with TCN tech for us to build" because Kane (despite being an awesome character) can go sit on his alien tower and spin. He's fucked over the planet multiple times, he doesn't get to be treated (grudgingly) as our savior that's just waiting for the best time to show up.
 
I think there are 7 techs needed to get the DIY TCN. And I want to say we have two of them? So we need 5 techs from the Scrin gacha.

We have 27 techs out of 100. For the sake of simplicity, I'm going to pretend that every tech is equally likely, and that we only have 70 techs left to choose from.

So, 70C5.
If my math is correct, then:
01% Chance: 26 more swings at the gacha to get the TCN. (26C5/70C5)
05% Chance: 40 more swings at the gacha to get the TCN. (40C5/70C5)
51% Chance: 62 more swaings at the gacha to get the TCN. (62C5/70C5)

Last time I checked, our Visitor gacha had an expected value of 5-8 techs remaining before it is exhausted.
But let's pretend that isn't going to happen, that we get 7 Visitor techs every plan, and that the QM doesn't hard cap the number of techs we can get.

It would be 9 more plans, or 36 years, before we were more likely than not to have developed the TCN on our own. A version of the TCN that would be much shittier than what Kane is offering. I don't think we have 36 years left of being able to maintain society in a recognizable form on Earth absent the TCN.

So, unless we get a whole bunch of people making a whole bunch of mods, a GDI TCN is flat out not happening barring winning the lottery levels of luck.
 
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[X] Plan Karachi Shield Alloys v2
[X] Plan Karachi Shield Alloys

I like the new plan, but it's late enough I'm keeping a vote in for the old one
 
Rakuhn said:
I think there are 7 techs needed to get the DIY TCN. And I want to say we have two of them? So we need 5 techs from the Scrin gacha.

We have 27 techs out of 100. For the sake of simplicity, I'm going to pretend that every tech is equally likely, and that we only have 70 techs left to choose from.

So, 70C5.
If my math is correct, then:
01% Chance: 26 more swings at the gacha to get the TCN. (26C5/70C5)
05% Chance: 40 more swings at the gacha to get the TCN. (40C5/70C5)
51% Chance: 62 more swaings at the gacha to get the TCN. (62C5/70C5)

Last time I checked, our Visitor gacha had an expected value of 5-8 techs remaining before it is exhausted.
But let's pretend that isn't going to happen, that we get 7 Visitor techs every plan, and that the QM doesn't hard cap the number of techs we can get.

It would be 9 more plans, or 36 years, before we were more likely than not to have developed the TCN on our own. A version of the TCN that would be much shittier than what Kane is offering. I don't think we have 36 years left of being able to maintain society in a recognizable form on Earth absent the TCN.

So, unless we get a whole bunch of people making a whole bunch of mods, a GDI TCN is flat out not happening barring winning the lottery levels of luck.
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So it looks like we're going to have to enact Operation Piñata, where we build a space navy and send them to Jupiter to mug the alien outpost there for more shinies.
 
[X] Plan Karachi Shield Alloys v2
[X] Plan Karachi Shield Alloys

Voting to narrow things up, because a close competition is more exciting XD
 
[X] Plan Attempting Strategic Defense and Inhibition
 
IndustrialVice2 said:
So it looks like we're going to have to enact Operation Piñata, where we build a space navy and send them to Jupiter to mug the alien outpost there for more shinies.
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That doesn't really help. Each refresh nets us an average of 15 Visitor techs over 16 years before being exhausted. And that assumes that we don't refresh the gacha early, and thus "waste" some of the gacha's potential. We need 60.

Or, in other words,
I don't think ithillid is going to structure the quest so that we can get 87 out of 100 of the Visitor techs.

edit:
@Khop pointed out that this isn't accounting for overflow, so things are probably better than my back-of-the napkin analysis.
 
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Rakuhn said:
I think there are 7 techs needed to get the DIY TCN. And I want to say we have two of them? So we need 5 techs from the Scrin gacha.

We have 27 techs out of 100. For the sake of simplicity, I'm going to pretend that every tech is equally likely, and that we only have 70 techs left to choose from.

So, 70C5.
If my math is correct, then:
01% Chance: 26 more swings at the gacha to get the TCN. (26C5/70C5)
05% Chance: 40 more swings at the gacha to get the TCN. (40C5/70C5)
51% Chance: 62 more swaings at the gacha to get the TCN. (62C5/70C5)

Last time I checked, our Visitor gacha had an expected value of 5-8 techs remaining before it is exhausted.
But let's pretend that isn't going to happen, that we get 7 Visitor techs every plan, and that the QM doesn't hard cap the number of techs we can get.

It would be 9 more plans, or 36 years, before we were more likely than not to have developed the TCN on our own. A version of the TCN that would be much shittier than what Kane is offering. I don't think we have 36 years left of being able to maintain society in a recognizable form on Earth absent the TCN.

So, unless we get a whole bunch of people making a whole bunch of mods, a GDI TCN is flat out not happening barring winning the lottery levels of luck.
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The one saving grace is that if we can get even one or two more of the TCN-relevant techs, we may be able to use them to spin out the situation longer. The stabilizer constellation is doing great work already, for instance, and has probably bought us considerable time as it is. And the inhibitors are going to do great work if we can get them rolled out comprehensively enough.

But yeah, I'm really not banking on a GDI-only TCN, though it's conceivable that if we can coordinate with some of the non-Kane Nod forces, something might be worked out. The Bannerjees may have pieces of the puzzle too, for example.
 
The Bannerjees definitely have one piece of the puzzle. After all, they stole it from us! :V

More seriously, I'm very sceptical that any of the Nod warlords have one of the (not stolen from us) TCN techs unless Kane deliberately gave it to them. They are Visitor techs, after all. And Kane is notoriously tight fisted with the shinies.

edit:
Although it might be fun for the warlords to get a couple of free whacks on the Visitor gacha for "secret" techs that they've hidden from Kane.
 
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I was going to recommend finding Kane and getting the Tacitius back, but I don't know if we have the technology and knowledge to keep it stable and decode it. And other than not wanting Kane to have the alien ball, I don't know if we (GDI) actually know what the Tacitius is other than 'something alien that Kane wants/took'.

Although honestly, the fact Kane took it should be good enough reason to want to find it and take it back from Nod. Of course that means we'd also have to find it somehow. So it kind of just comes across as a lot of extra work for something that we might figure out on our own, but it's always a possibility if we roll poorly on our Scrin reverse-engineer techs.
 
Rakuhn said:
The Bannerjees definitely have one piece of the puzzle. After all, they stole it from us! :V

More seriously, I'm very sceptical that any of the Nod warlords have one of the (not stolen from us) TCN techs unless Kane deliberately gave it to them. They are Visitor techs, after all. And Kane is notoriously tight fisted with the shinies.

edit:
Although it might be fun for the warlords to get a couple of free whacks on the Visitor gacha for "secret" techs that they've hidden from Kane.
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Well, if anyone has them, it'd be the Bannerjees, who are pretty clearly Kane's golden children and who also know a good deal about tiberium science.

Alternatively, they may be able to jury-rig things Nod has already had for a long time into something that makes our "screw you I'll build my own TCN with blackjack and hookers" project more effective than it would be if we were going it alone.

But still, I'm not expecting giant miracles and GDI developing its own true TCN seems very unlikely. What I do hope is that we can continue to spin things out long enough that Kane realizes we are heavily invested into getting as many people as possible off the planet and abandoning him to die here, at which point he loses leverage and should make a deal while he still can.

AzrielIlluminare said:
I was going to recommend finding Kane and getting the Tacitius back, but I don't know if we have the technology and knowledge to keep it stable and decode it.
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Isolinear computing probably helps a lot there, but that's a concern. Also, we're pretty sure Kane is forted up in an unassailable and invulnerable Threshold Tower in Italy, which his forces seized control of at the very end of the Third Tiberium War.

Apart from maybe some kind of extremely sophisticated portal fuckery we'll lack the technology to do for... I'd casually estimate 30-70 years at least, if ever... I don't think we have any way of attacking that tower.

And other than not wanting Kane to have the alien ball, I don't know if we (GDI) actually know what the Tacitius is other than 'something alien that Kane wants/took'.
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Ithillid told us in-character shortly after we got that update on "so who and what is Kane anyway," so it seems likely that we know. We also know for a fact that it contains vast amounts of useful information, since GDI was able to extract some very useful information from it in a very short time during the tail end of the Second Tiberium War.

The problem is that realistically we won't figure out the TCN on our own.
 
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