I mean, I for one could have sworn that at various points in time in the past, I had mentioned "we will also probably be pissing off al-Isfahani, and he has nukes, and we should probably get working on SADN" at various points in past turns. Maybe not consistently enough, and I haven't exactly been good about writing SADN into my plans reliably.

But I think it was on at least some of our radar.
Sure, but frankly we were more worried about the Bannerjees for fairly obvious reasons. Now personally, I think we made a mistake not starting SADN earlier (and I will say I'm one of the people that didn't think it was super important), but we didn't do so largely because we were focusing heavily on Zone Armour to counter the Bannerjees expected tactic of throwing hordes of Gana at us.

Basically we overfocused slightly on the Bannerjees and now the guy famous for nuking shit is our main priority so we need to overcommit to make up for our late start
 
[X]Plan Powering Zappy AMS (now with alloys)
[X]Plan Economy obligations
[X] Plan Attempting To Feed The Fires Of Industry NTU Edition
 
That really doesn't seem fair.

He just said he hasn't been consistent about bringing it up or putting it into his own plans. And said he hopes to potentially get phase 3 done in another turn.

Let's just calm down a bit.

I think it's unfair for him to say " I find sudden focus on absolute maximum SADN investment a little... well. :( "

He claims we should have done more earlier. He claims he wants to gain protection from nuclear threats. But then he also claims he wants to spend around 12 dice on SADN in this turn and the next.

All of that being the case, why then, does he not simply assign more dice in his plan to SADN?

Because of course, there's other stuff which is also admittedly important. And that's fair. But if SADN is actually the issue that he's complaining about, that's a simple fix. Instead, he's doing the opposite and implying that 7 dice in SADN is too much.

He can't have it both ways. If SADN isn't important enough to put more dice into then he shouldn't complain about other plans not putting more dice into it. On the other hand, if he does feel it's important, it's a simple matter to add more dice into his own plan.

It reads to me like he's just using it as a convenient issue to try and discourage support for other plans.
 
I feel like you're either overlooking or forgetting the fact that SADN has a ramp time. Phase 1 of SADN a few turns ago is just flatly more valuable than phase 1 now, because it would have come online sooner.
 
I feel like you're either overlooking or forgetting the fact that SADN has a ramp time. Phase 1 of SADN a few turns ago is just flatly more valuable than phase 1 now, because it would have come online sooner.

What is the point of this post of yours? Cause I can't see it and I would like to understand.
 
Regarding the SADN I really feel like we need more than just 5 dice + an AA one right now.

The Warlord who's territory we will be invading to complete Karachi (Shah of Atom) has just been hung out to dry by the people who are supposed to be his allies. They are now very isolated from the rest of NOD. The nearby by warlords who might have helped are the ones that sold him out and anyone else probably has to smuggle forces via the sea, which is largely uncontested since the Warlord with a Navy (Bitang) is one of the ones who sold him out. Alternatively they could try to get other Warlords to attack GDI locally instead of sending equipment but given that Kane told them off for staring the regency war, Stahl being busy trying to control Gideon's former territory and the agreement we reached with the others I don't think this will happen.

Therefore they probably don't believe they can stop GDI invading their territory to secure the route to Karachi via conventional means. They're probably right, they simply don't have the resources to meaningfully contest GDI on their own. From their perspective their arsenal of nuclear weapons and threat of escalating to larger strikes on more important targets is probably their only hope of not getting run over. Therefore I think it is very likely that they will nuke us. Its there only real hope of either slowing us down or convincing us to back off. Even if they don't do it immediately the option never goes away and they are going to be under a lot of pressure to do something to try to stop GDI so I'd expect it to happen at some point during our invasion.

When it starts it will probably begin with either tactical strikes on our forces or the local infrastructure that supports them. They wont want to have to deal with the retaliation that would come from larger strikes. But once the wars started I don't believe the thread would ever vote to back off, especially after we've already paid the other warlords to let us have Karachi. So the military is probably going to respond with ion cannon strikes and more ground forces and the thread by pouring more resources into the region. From there Shah of Atom is going to have less and less options as they lose territory and forces they cant easily replace. They are going to feel more and more pressure to escalate there nuclear strikes in the hope that we are forced to back down. It won't work but they don't really have any other options if they are trying to fight us.

People are right that more dice on SADN now wont help in the next few turns since phases 1 and 2 probably wont get started any quicker but in 6-8 turns they will mean that phases 3 and 4 of the SADN will be a turn or two further along the process of being rolled out. start rolling out phases 3 and 4 faster which we will need to start mitigating large scale nuclear strikes. I doubt they will be finished in time but even having them a turn further along the rollout process would help reduce the damage.

Maybe at some point Shah of atom will try to cut a deal instead of continuing to fight us or maybe Kane will tell him no nukes and they'll listen to him. If either of those things happened that would be great but I don't think they're likely so I'd like to complete SADN as some as possible.
 
My optimistic side speculates that he might even flip to 'neutral' in response to the Karachi situation, simply because he has no nearby support and is very isolated and cut off by the Bannerjees throwing him under the bus, and going out in a blaze of 'glory' by throwing fusion bombs in the general direction of Mecca just to punish GDI for building a road would be folly that goes against every cautious, long-term-thinking decision he's ever made.

But that could be me whistling in the dark, and I know it.

He is old in a profession where few grow old. That implies a level of caution and planning that precludes risking a nuclear strike on/near Mecca due to its religious significance. Even if al-Isfahani isn't particularly religious himself he must take into account his subordinates/the civilians in his territory who are. For that main reason I don't think its likely he'll strike at Mecca. BZ-4 on the other hand, that is both closer to his territory and has some industry that he may strike at. I think he is most likely going to try to cut a deal. His actions with the Caravanserai back in 'The Regency War: Part 2 — Faith, Resolved and Answered' imply that he is very much a cautious individual not wiling take unneeded risks.
Zayyin had raved and wailed at the world then. Had gone to Isfahani, who could only shake his head in sadness, the Shah of Atom unable to look him in the eyes. Who had to tell him that 'it was his time'.
This jives with the intelligence report we received on al-Isfahani, that states:
Situated between the center of power in India and the formerly divided Middle East, Ibrahim outlasted many of his ambitious and younger rivals. With records that spanned as far back to the first interwar period, he is a septuagenarian survivor, tending to his fragmented fiefdoms with a very defensive oriented outlook. The main reason for this survival can be attributed to his canniness and risk-management, allowing younger warlords to rise up and be absorbed into the greater Middle Eastern theatre while giving himself credit as their tutor.
Bolded for emphasis.

This is someone who is very experienced in decades of nuclear brinkmanship. That is not to say he wouldn't use nukes but as long as he and his core base of power is not threatened I doubt he would commit to going out in a blaze of canned sunshine glory. I think it far more likely his goal would be nuking Karachi/the Indus Road Project. More likely I think he might reach out via the Caravanserai to cut a deal, using the threat of nukes as one of his cards in negotiations.

At that point, he has very few choices except:

1) Follow the Caravanserai's lead and cut a deal,
2) Throw everything he has at trying to destroy the road project, hoping that if he fails he'll at least be tolerated as a rump state that GDI doesn't consider worth destroying, or
3) Go out in a blaze of glory hitting distant but valuable GDI targets so they regret ever crossing him, in the full knowledge that he himself will not survive this and the nation he's built for himself will be effectively destroyed as a warning to other Nod warlords who might decide to play stupid games and win stupid prizes.

I would add 3 more potential scenarios:
4) Vassalizes himself to Krukov via the YZ land route from Afghanistan to Russia.
5) Convince the Bannerjees to go back on the South Pacific Conference deal.
6) Ignore it entirely.

In reverse order:
Option 6 is al-Isfahani playing to his roots and main defensive strategy. This is the status quo option, and he's kept his position for all this time by not taking risks. I think he'd prefer this option, but will likely be forced to take one of the others.

Option 5 assumes the Bannerjees go back on the deal from the South Pacific Conference, which is unlikely as it would lose them the influence they gained from it, but possible. They also got everything they really wanted out of that deal including us not using their territory for the Indus Road Project. So I doubt they'd go for it.

Option 4 is more of a wild card as I can't recall if there was any significant interaction between al-Isfahani and Krukov. However Krukov's aggressive anti GDI strategy is pretty antithetical to al-Isfahani's more patronage and influence structure. Krukov has suffered some recent reverses against the GDI from the Regency War, so he probably is looking to expand his power base, al-Isfahani however was just left out to dry by the Bannerjees and will soon be between the RZ and the GDI, so he has plenty of reasons to look for support elsewhere. But his whole methodology has been one of soft power backed by MAD, and Krukov is all about more conventional hard power. If they could work together they'd probably be a pretty terrifying team, covering each other's weaknesses. I don't know if their personalities would jive though and given the feudal nature of NOD warlordism, they will need that connection to make that sort of team up work.

In conclusion: Options 3, 5, and 6 are unlikely for reasons described. Which leaves: Cut a deal with the GDI, limited nuclear strikes on Karachi/Indus Road Project, and cut a deal with Krukov.
 
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The main catch is that to hit enough of our industry to matter he'd have to go full-bore and draw down WMD retaliation from GDI.

If he's trying for a limited nuclear war (the kind he can personally survive losing if Kane or underlings don't kill him first), he'd probably restrict himself to nuclear attacks against, say, key embarkation points and airfields in BZ-4 that we're using to support the landings.

The risk is that he won't feel so limited.
The question at hand, thus, is "will the Karachi Corridor take enough of his core territory/do enough damage in the process that he feels he can not survive (or can't stay in power without visibly striking back in kind)?"
The answer to that is unknown, but has an uncomfortably low chance of being "no".
 
As a gentle reminder, our list of goals includes the following:

Complete all of the following projects:
Transorbital Fighter Development or follow on heavy ship development, Combat Laser Development, and Unmanned Support Ground Vehicle Development
Complete 2 phases of Reforestation Campaign Preparation
We should do both of these things, and get started on the latter, as soon as we can. The MRASP factory is not on our list of required projects. As such, I'm approval voting Plan Attempting to Stoke the Fires of Industry NTU Edition because it at least works on one of them.

I'd like to have combat lasers for our Novahawks and the next-gen armored vehicles.

I'd also like to get started on unfucking this planet.

If you'd like either of those things, vote for Plan SADNed Alloys. I have also put a dice into Fruticulture Bays.
 
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Why are the top two plans working on [ ] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 5) instead of the [ ] Bergen Superconductor Foundry (Phase 4) that we worked on last turn? Shouldn't we have some consistent focus on large projects? :/
 
[X] Plan Attempting to Stoke the Fires of Industry OG

[X] Plan Attempting To Feed The Fires Of Industry NTU Edition

Hoping for a continued focus in SADN, Alloys, and Inhibitors next turn.
 
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Why are the top two plans working on [ ] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 5) instead of the [ ] Bergen Superconductor Foundry (Phase 4) that we worked on last turn? Shouldn't we have some consistent focus on large projects? :/

The logic was Bergen was likely needed to expand dice access for 2CCF Fusion. Given 2 dice was not enough to even have a chance at completing a phase of it in a turn. Something we would need to ensure a good supply of Energy to fed the various industries we need it for. This turn we can now have 3 dice on 2CCF Fusion investment. Possibly from growing familiarity with 2CCF, possibly from the investment we made into Bergen last turn. That is enough to complete a Phase in a turn, and to statistically increase the average quarterly Energy income of a fully invested 2CCF rollout from 9.5 to 12.67 Energy per turn.

The argument for Reykjavik is two fold: One, it is cheaper then Bergen and we can use the R elsewhere for other expensive projects. Two, we are going to want Reykjavik both for the Plan Goal and for boosting the remaining GFZA factories we need to build. We can get Reykjavik's capstone online in 3 turns if we invest in it.
 
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You have mentioned it in the past yes, but if it's not in your plans reliably just 'mentioning' it doesn't count for a whole lot right now does it?

I also find it rather disingenuous of you to claim that other people in the past didn't do enough for SADN, meanwhile, your current plan has 5 military dice+1 AA dice, while other plans have 7 full military dice into SADN.

It almost seems like you're just trying to poke holes in other peoples plans and find fault. If you wanted to put more effort into SADN you could.
My perspective is that there's some risk of going very abruptly from undercompensating for the threat to overcompensating for the threat. We perceive "oh dear, we have forgotten to attend to this" and try to react by pouring resources into the program most directly connected to "this." But other threats and problems have not gone away, and ignoring them will not help us in the long run.

But in this case, the effective countermeasure to the threat of al-Isfahani's nuclear arsenal is time, not more 2063Q1 dice spending over and above what is necessary to get Phase 1 done and Phase 2 at least significantly underway.

This is not me being disingenuous, unless you want it to be. This is me being nuanced.

...

Regardless of whether we spend 7 dice or 5.62 dice in 2063Q1, waiting until late 2064 gives us time for an SADN rollout to be fairly effective at covering us against the obvious attack vector.

Likewise, regardless of which number of dice we spend, 5.62 or 7, going ahead in late 2063 does not give us time for that defense to be effective. Because of rollout time, we will have only the vaguest beginnings of a defense network up and in place, even in the Phase 1 sites we'll definitely be finishing in Q1 anyway, let alone the Phase 2 sites whose completion date is in question.

Thus, neglecting all or nearly all other projects to maximize SADN spending becomes, in practical effect, an overreaction to the problem. Which wouldn't be an issue, really, the resources certainly aren't wasted!

Except that the response comes the expense of ignoring other problems that were real concerns previously.

...

The counterargument to my point here is that we can choose to delay the Red Zone border offensives, too, to give ourselves time to properly complete preparations for them instead. My counter to that counterargument is that the Plan commitments and promises we made have given us considerably less flexibility in the timing of the border offensives than of Karachi. We can delay Karachi's start time to 2064 without any general sense of our promises being broken, so far as we know. We cannot do the same with the border offensives, and even waiting until 2063Q3 to start runs us up against our deadline barring extreme dice overexpenditure in Q3.

He can't have it both ways. If SADN isn't important enough to put more dice into then he shouldn't complain about other plans not putting more dice into it. On the other hand, if he does feel it's important, it's a simple matter to add more dice into his own plan.
Because "important" and "not important" don't exist as a strict binary. There's a spectrum. The operative question is "are we doing enough?"

2-3 dice per turn on SADN every turn for the past four turns would have been enough to leave us fairly well prepared this situation. Because of deployment times, if we plan to go ahead with a 2063Q4-2064Q1 Karachi date, no amount of SADN spending would be truly adequate now. But if we make the sensible strategic move of delaying our 'GO' date, then suddenly the extra time thus bought

Good planning doesn't consist of deciding what the single most important thing and throwing everything at it.

Good planning consists of deciding what the most important project needs, then seeing what is left elsewhere. Even a very important project may not have the answer to "what does this project need" be "everything."

It reads to me like he's just using it as a convenient issue to try and discourage support for other plans.
I can't control your perceptions.

It's why Simon wishes SADN was looked at earlier and why it's not hypocritical that he's only immediately concerned about phase 1.
Well...

If we still had more Military dice to play with and had rolled better on the zrbite guns so that Phase 1 was finished, I'd be happy to try and throw more stuff in hopes of getting SADN Phase 2 this turn. Even now, I've tried to at least give us a slim but not hopeless chance of getting it this turn. I want Phase 2 to be as far along as possible this turn for very obvious reasons- the same as everyone else!

But we did roll a Natural 1 on the zrbite guns. And we did start the Department of Munitions which gives us one less Military die of wiggle room to play with for projects like SADN. And we are constrained to two Free dice on the military per turn. And all this other stuff is coming together, to where the pressure cannot be relieved by rush-building SADN alone.

And so I mentally sigh, push Karachi back to after the 2064 hurricane/monsoon season dies down, and buy us time to finish rush-building SADN and accomplish some other leftover priorities we were already working on.

Regarding the SADN I really feel like we need more than just 5 dice + an AA one right now...

People are right that more dice on SADN now wont help in the next few turns since phases 1 and 2 probably wont get started any quicker but in 6-8 turns they will mean that phases 3 and 4 of the SADN will be a turn or two further along the process of being rolled out. start rolling out phases 3 and 4 faster which we will need to start mitigating large scale nuclear strikes. I doubt they will be finished in time but even having them a turn further along the rollout process would help reduce the damage.
They won't be a turn further along the rollout process.

They'll be about 1.7 dice further along the rollout process. Phase 3 still isn't getting done until 2063Q2, and still has a very good chance of getting done that turn either way with heavy focus on it (which I for one intend to write into my 2063Q2 plan).

The big X-factor is getting Phase 4 done in 2063Q3... But frankly, SADN up through Phase 3 already gives us enough coverage that al-Isfahani's deterrent starts to look a lot less dangerous, to where GDI can look him in the eye and say "you can't actually hamstring us, all you can do is get a reputation as a gigantic war criminal for killing millions of people, many of them Yellow Zoner refugees, in low-priority non-military targets, and then die like a dog. You should seriously just cut a deal" and al-Isfahani will have good reason to think he's right.
 
I am simply going to vote your post Insightful; I have nothing more to say.

Why are the top two plans working on [ ] Reykjavik Myomer Macrospinner (Phase 5) instead of the [ ] Bergen Superconductor Foundry (Phase 4) that we worked on last turn? Shouldn't we have some consistent focus on large projects? :/
This is a matter of legitimate debate. My key arguments were adequately summarized by Doruma.

But "finish what we started on Bergen" is a respectable argument for Shadows' plan.

[] Plan Attempting to Stoke the Fires of Industry OG

Hoping for a continued focus in SADN, Alloys, and Inhibitors next turn.
In the plan I'd write based off this plan winning, you would definitely get the first. Oh goodness me would you ever get the first. While extreme bad luck could stop me from getting Phase 3 done in 2063Q2, I have no intention of letting anything else stop us.

I am going to have to think about the second. Not so much whether to invest in alloys, but how much. Some of this would depend on how the dice roll, because much relies on whether Chicago finishes, whether we roll luckily or unluckily on the alloy foundries this turn, and so on.

I am prepared to promise the third, though it may be alongside work on the Red Zone Border Offensive Stage 4+5 project if the ancillary projects now in hand go well enough to support ZOCOM. Still, efforts will continue, and with the fusion plants completing in either Q1 or Q2, we'll have the Energy to power inhibitors as needed.

Finishing ASAT after SADN might not be a bad idea either.
ASAT is "finished" in the sense of "the defense system as originally envisioned has been fully set up."

ASAT Phase 5 represents an expansion of the system to include new weapons and options, which is not a bad thing! But at that point my priority is on getting those space fighters and/or space battleships up and running.

Prefer the ag dice and mobile factory die.
I greatly appreciate your decision to tell me that.
 
Okay, so I'm looking at the vote tally and as of this writing, here are the four leading plans. I'm trying to keep the number of plans I talk about to a manageable number, so I won't list every single plan.

27 Plan Attempting to Stoke the Fires of Industry OG -
23 Plan Attempting to Feed the Fires of Industry NTU Edition - Nottheunmaker
15 Plan SADNed Alloys - Shadows
08 Plan Powering Zappy AMS (now with alloys) - Lightwhispers



OG vs NTU: What Are The Differences?

Frankly, not a lot. NTU is a fork of my original plan draft; it's undergone some changes that I agree with and made myself, and a few minor points of polite disagreement between me and @Nottheunmaker .

Both plans share certain common features:

1) NTU puts an Agriculture die on farm mechanization (to produce more bulk food) while OG puts it on lab-grown meat research (to produce more luxury foods in the medium to long run). To be clear, this is not me being opposed to the mechanization project as such. I simply feel that we should continue to pursue luxury food production with at least two dice per turn for now, and this is my idea of how to best go about it.

2a) NTU focuses the mandatory "toss a die to your Talons" die on Combat Laser Development, OG puts it on starting the MRAP/MRASP factory to build prototype 'mobile base' walker/crawlers. Argument in OG's favor is that MRAP/MRASP is a long-delayed project likely to have a great impact on our strategic capabilities in the deep Yellow and the Red Zones.

2b) Argument in NTU's favor is that Combat Laser Development may chain into other planned development projects if we want to do those soon, and that Combat Laser Development is a Plan commitment and should therefore be done as soon as possible regardless of other considerations. Personally, I hope to do laser research alongside ongoing work on the MRAP factory some time in 2063Q3 plus or minus one quarter. Unlikely to be Q2 unless SADN rolls marvelously this turn, but hopefully not delayed to Q4. Yes, that's two dice for the Talons. I'm a madman. :p

However, the differences are overwhelmed by the similarities. I am going to go back and edit in an approval vote here.
(EDIT: I had 'differences' and 'similarities' reversed before. Thank you, Derpmind.)

1) Serious effort to give Chicago a plausible (32%) chance of completion, hopefully putting Chicago Phase 5 within striking range to finish off next turn. Or this turn if we get just a little lucky.

2) Serious effort to finish Alloy Foundries Phase 3, with an 87% chance of completion. Some risk of failure is accepted, though, to allow Heavy Industry dice to be used on other projects.

3) Accepting coin-toss odds on finishing the next wave of upgraded fusion plants, as they are not truly required to meet energy demands next turn. Since we'll be immediately turning around and spending 2-3 dice on fusion next turn anyway, delaying completion of the first phase until Q2 is not deemed a serious problem.

4) Starting work on Reykjavik Phase 5 rather than continuing (for now) work on Bergen Phase 4. This is done for reasons that were explained by Doruma1920 here quite neatly.

5) Agriculture projects split between tarberries, spider cotton, and actual edibles, with some variation of emphasis in which edibles we work on.

6) Tiberium projects not really focused on further mining (since we have enough income and will do a major Red Zone push soon). Instead, focus is on inhibitors, tiberium algorithms, starting the IHG refinery upgrades, and doing tiberium wildlife mad science studies to close the tiberium goat gap with the Bannerjees.

7) Orbital focus is on wrapping up or at least trying to wrap up all the bays we started work on last turn, while still sparing a couple of dice each for the Shala and Columbia station cores so that progress on them doesn't stop entirely.

8 ) Services is scattershot across a variety of Health-improving projects.

9) Military is funded about as heavily as possible (9 dice plus 2 AA dice). Both NTU and OG put 5+AA dice on SADN Phase 1+2, giving us effective certainty of completing Phase 1 and a 16% chance of completing Phase 2. We both put 1+AA dice into zrbite weapons and two dice into the Santiago power armor factory, in an attempt to give ZOCOM the final boost of preparations for the impending Red Zone border offensives we promised to complete later this year. The difference is in the Talons allocation; see above.



I will write up my thoughts on the other two plans I've listed at a later time.
 
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