- Location
- MSC
I'm mostly thinking that Border Offensives and Deep Glaciers are more preferable to Karachi, but that's my personal preference.
Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
- Location
- ?????????
[X] Plan I Need My Space
- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
None of this addresses that your statement about needing average or better rolls was incorrect. Therefore, I don't know if all of this is still based off of that incorrect calculation.With all foundry phases in place, yes. With only the two we have, not so much. The point is, never being able to put three dice on something that takes 300-ish points to complete makes it a risky proposition to rely on it, because you need an "oh shit" backup plan if it doesn't work. It's still efficient, but you need a backup.
With the confidence of being able to put more dice on fusion, you don't need a backup constantly in place in case of emergencies, and you're not likely to be forced to do something like frantically throw 4-5 dice at a wave of ion power refits when you were really really hoping to spend those dice on Karachi, or something like that.
Now, if we can complete all the alloy phases, at that point two dice per turn on fusion looks pretty good!
But at that point, you're talking about completing an 1800-point megaproject at 40 R/die, and then I have to ask whether it's really worth it to avoid the trouble of completing a 700-point megaproject at 30 R/die.
[Yes, that oversimplifies, but the point is that Bergen was something we wanted to do anyway too, so having added incentive to at least hammer through Phase 4 isn't such a bad thing]
Why did you go on such a long-winded tangent?
The argument presented here doesn't really hold water anyway, as it assumes that we are always going to be one turn away from blackouts.
As it is presented, you seem to be suggesting that we need to do an expensive mega-project, just so that we can skim along one turn ahead of the blackouts.
- Location
- ?????????
Tbh I am glad that we chose the "DAE upgrade" guy which forces us to do DAE. Cause otherwise it would never have gotten done. Like straight up. The cruelty of the "Auto-Dice system" is that the options can never be as good as regular projects(unfortunate I know) so efficiency-wise they will always be argued down(barring a really good plan and convincing Simon) but they are very useful for having a consistent source of increase and gives us breathing room in HI for power. If 4 power is coming next turn, our "Oh shit we need power" threshold is a lot lower and that is useful.
Edit: DAE is one dice on 4 power at all times. A consistency that we lack as we tend to fluctuate wildly with varying priorities
Edit: DAE is one dice on 4 power at all times. A consistency that we lack as we tend to fluctuate wildly with varying priorities
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- Location
- Queensland, Australia
So because there's been a bunch of discussion on what order we build the Orbital Stations and Bays in, with the importance placed on certain things varying due to the perceived 'unlock points' for the next City Stations... @Ithillid what are we being told are the needed projects in order to unlock the next City Stations?
[X] Plan I Need My Space
[X] Plan Always Remember Your Shrine to Asclepius
[X] Plan Two Turns to Chicago
[X] Plan I Need My Space
[X] Plan Always Remember Your Shrine to Asclepius
[X] Plan Two Turns to Chicago
BoSPaladin
The Paladin
First off DAE was designed as a specific project to avoid rushing projects. It can be done and forgotten about. It requires only that we do it, and leave it alone. Because crash building stuff was a problem. Here is a project which is impossible to crash build.
Beyond that I think that reliability is something of an X factor that counts for a lot. It will never be a massive 'wow' project. But we're seeing it in every sector, from light industry down to individual chefs. People want to know what GDI is building next. And, regular energy infrastructure will ensure that people and businesses don't need to worry about energy bills spiking. Or their energy use being rationed in emergencies.
Unfortunately, due to massive red zone investment zocom and the military have asked us to hold off on red zone operations. Currently they're not something we can do.
Beyond that I think that reliability is something of an X factor that counts for a lot. It will never be a massive 'wow' project. But we're seeing it in every sector, from light industry down to individual chefs. People want to know what GDI is building next. And, regular energy infrastructure will ensure that people and businesses don't need to worry about energy bills spiking. Or their energy use being rationed in emergencies.
Unfortunately, due to massive red zone investment zocom and the military have asked us to hold off on red zone operations. Currently they're not something we can do.
- Location
- USA
I would honestly argue that it should be the opposite. If the objective is to encourage us to give up dice.
The Auto dice options should be slightly better than regular projects. The trade off is then that you lose the dice forever and the loss of the ability to invest it in other projects. A steady increase in housing or energy doesn't do anything to research new tech or build a factory. Losing a dice hurts.
Then the argument becomes when to lose the flexibility and ability to focus on projects to instead just make numbers go up slightly faster.
Right now a lot of the auto dice options are less effective than a normal dice and I have no idea why we would go for them. They are literally worse choices.
- Location
- MSC
I mean most plans take Delay Karachi favor to Q2 2063 and that's when RZ ops can be restarted.
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- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
AFAIK, the next round of stations appears once we complete phase 5 of Colombia and Shala. Bays not needed.
- Location
- MSC
For the record, How far from Lunar settlements are we?
grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
Considering we don't have the Lunar water or helium projects unlocked yet, probably very.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The big issue with the border offensives and deep glacier mining is that it puts ZOCOM under a lot of strain. We don't want to roll them out so intensively that we break ZOCOM's back trying to keep up, which in turn means not overinvesting into them in any one turn, which makes it less of an either/or whether we work on Red Zone operations or Karachi.
Because I made certain assumptions about what parts I didn't need to say out loud, and what parts I did.
That 3.85 dice per phase can be rewritten another way: "Okay, we have a 325-point project, we roll four dice, we get +132 points on it from bonuses, so we need 193 points from the dice rolls."
Even if we factor in the +15 omake bonuses, the odds of finishing the phase that way are about 68%. It's good, but it means you need a backup plan. And...
The problem is that if we're not, it's because we somehow got out ahead of the curve and built surplus Energy capacity faster than we used it. Which is a lot easier said than done under present conditions, especially if we're restricted to one phase of fusion power per two turns and if we're going to need to start decommissioning first-generation fusion plants some time in 2063-64.
When, exactly, do we build up a surplus in that scenario? Do we just stop doing anything that uses electricity for a year? Do we budget ourselves to Energy consumption so low, DAE can cover it? Is that a thing we even can do and still fulfill our Plan requirements?
Just based on realistic estimates of how much Energy our economy will need, it is highly desirable to be able to be sure of getting a steady one fusion phase per two turns, and indeed a bit more than that. Because if we can't do that, it's not just that we're going to be hard pressed to skim along one turn ahead of the blackouts. It's that we're going to be hard pressed to build up a surplus so we don't need to, or to do much of anything at all other than sit around in the blackouts.
You do know I voted for the DAE upgrade person, right? And in fact argued for them, precisely because I figured getting +1 Heavy Industry die for a while that would then metamorphose into the DAE's +4 Energy/turn trickle was well worth it?
Just because I'm not eager to start the metamorphosis early doesn't mean I've been against this the whole time.
Look, I don't have a mind control machine.
I talk a lot, but it's kind of disrespectful to other people to assume they're so gullible that they believe what I say if I don't have a point, just because it's me saying it.
Well, for the foreseeable future we're going to be effectively locked into spending dice on fusion power every turn, not only because we need the Energy for new projects but because we urgently need to build up enough of a buffer to replace the old plants from the previous Four Year Plan.
So if it's steady investment you want, you're in luck whether we get DAE or not.
It varies.
First, there are narrative arguments to be made for spinoff bureaus now that GDI's government is back on a regular footing and the economy has recovered to something resembling pre-TWIII stability. It makes sense that the legislature can just say "okay, we're funneling 1% of GDP to a bureau whose one job is to build arcologies and that's no longer under direct Treasury control." It makes sense that munitions production would be outsourced to a separate government branch that isn't directly controlled by the Treasury and is more answerable to GDI's equivalent of the War Department- whatever civil bureaucracy is supporting the military. It makes sense that there are designated government funds for repairing war damages and funding expansions of minor factories that have been chugging along uninterrupted since the 2030s and all kinds of stuff that isn't part of a big Treasury megaproject.
Second, a lot of the autodice options aren't that bad. DCC kind of stinks, but DDM and the Military departments have real potential if we can afford to sacrifice the dice and still hit our other Plan targets.
And DHIA is really coming through for us; that +2 Capital Goods/turn trickle is helping out and is frankly more efficient than, say, investing dice into North Boston would be.
Even DAE isn't that bad, it's just that Energy is a hot-button issue precisely because there's so much demand and every way we have to get more of it competes directly with other important projects.
I don't think we need helium-3 mining to build lunar settlements; solar panels seem to be a viable option along with fission reactors.
I suspect we DO need lunar water options, and I'm not sure how we go about getting them.
grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
Ithilid has mentioned before that doing more lunar mining projects results in infrastructure being built in the backgrounds, that's been a component of the narrative segments as well.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- They
Building high quality, low density space departments is probably going to reduce hope.
If you live in a tent city and the goverment builds luxury apartments next to you you arent going to be happy that some people get to live the good life, youll be angry that they only care about the rich people.
Any housing on space stations is automaticaly going to be the equivalent of super high quality groundbound housing no matter the density, just because you are away from tiberium
If you live in a tent city and the goverment builds luxury apartments next to you you arent going to be happy that some people get to live the good life, youll be angry that they only care about the rich people.
Any housing on space stations is automaticaly going to be the equivalent of super high quality groundbound housing no matter the density, just because you are away from tiberium
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was getting at. The idea that the low density housing options are "a sign of GDI's aspirations" feels like the kind of stuff unreconstructed FMP-ers would come up with.
It's, I dunno, Nwabudike Morgan talking.
Eh. The way I figure it, if we went for the ultra-high density options, the sheer misery of living there would eventually catch up with a lot of people. Life in a normal Blue Zone isn't that bad and tiberium isn't that pressing a danger to the average Blue Zone resident right now.
But the intermediate options are different.
For one it is a significant draw for people, this housing is described as like our arcology housing. If we produce housing that not only covers high and medium density, but not housing with comparable to our arcologies there may be problems. Most of our population are ether living in arcology housing or housing that is comparable to our arcologies, do you think most people will like getting a downgrade to live in space.
//Edit:
Not really. The blue zones are mostly free of tib and the danger of it is a far off thing. If we are to give hope we need to give people some thing they will want.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I think we'll have no trouble finding occupancy for, say, the first million or so people. From people who want to move to space and will accept a downgrade. And from people who already didn't live in an arcology or are accustomed to not living in one (e.g. because they were born in a Yellow Zone).
Also, the main situation in which we need to worry about "getting people to live in space" who aren't specifically volunteering, or about having any shortage of space colonists, is if we're throwing people up there by the tens or hundreds of millions in an attempt to evacuate Earth.
By which point people won't care if their new space apartment is a bit cramped, because their roomy arcology would just get eaten by tiberium anyway.
- Location
- ?????????
You don't have a mind control machine yes. But you do have a sizeable influence on the thread and are often the planner to convince. Look. I am not saying that's a bad thing. But realistically you are the person to convince for a plan or option to win. I mean this in as much respect as possible when I say the things I do about your influence on the voters.
Also in regards to DAE man had it not been for DAE man we'd have never voted for it as it is not as efficient (back then it was 3 energy per turn) and we'd not have been required to do it(which really helps in the "actually biting the bullet part").
And yes I am aware that the fusion will continue to push forth for the foreseeable future. I am merely stating that it is a good thing we got DAE man for the reasons above
So your saying that we won't deplete our pool of volunteers because it is not as small as the QM has indicated. The pool of volunteers to live in space decreases as it is depleted and desperation for safety decreases, it grows as people became more desperate for safety. We have made the Blue Zones Earth a rather nice (and safe) place to live, our space habitats are having to compete with those. Can you say you would like to live in a cramped place in an orbital hab over a comfortable house/apartment on the ground.
grimely
Twink Death Sufferer
......the only reason GDI has a positive population growth is because we keep taking in refugees. Citizens in the Blue Zone are refusing to have children because they find it inhumane to bring a new person into being just to live on a planet that's 50% green death crystal.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The way I saw it, that option sweetened the pot quite a bit, first by making the option more efficient, but also importantly by giving us the use of +1 Heavy Industry die for a while before converting that die over into DAE.
Basically, the option gave us the die that we would eventually convert into DAE at leisure, which changes the calculation considerably from having to do it with one of our existing dice.
I don't know what our pool is, but realistically we can predict that it is, at minimum, some number like "10% of the voters in the Starbound Party," which is well over a million people.
There may come some eventual equilibrium at which there are no more people willing to move to a small but decent-ish apartment in space because they have a luxury apartment in a Blue Zone on Earth.
If and as that point arrives, we can talk about increasing the luxuriousness of the space housing, assuming that when that time comes there is no urgent need to evacuate Earth people into space in maximally cheap barracks because it's that or die.
But that point cannot plausibly arrive before we have, say, a few million people in space. And we're just plain not getting there until, I don't know, some time in the 2070s at best, I'm pretty sure.
I can say that 1% of the population would agree to it under the conditions of the Tiberian Earth, and that is enough.
- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
We can activate some RZ Ion Power, exactly like your Plan does. And we can activate the DAE at the same time as spending 2 dice into 2nd gen fusion (do we have an acronym for this yet?).
That gives us +14 power this turn, more than your Plan does. Then next turn, we are fairly likely to get the +19 and +4. If not, we are still up +18 on where we are now, and guaranteed to get +23 the turn afterwards. Ergo: +41 power in 3 turns, worst case scenario. Continuing at around +14 per turn.
Please don't talk crap about things you know are fully possible.
DAE is almost as good as Fusion power, but more importantly, it doesn't require an expensive megaproject to get that third HI die working on power generation. Which is cheaper and quicker than trying to rush out Bergen 4.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- They
Sure, the average Blue zone resident dont want to go to space high density housing. But an exceptional Yellow zone refugee, terrified of tiberium encroachment doesnt care about how cramped the conditions are as long as there is no danger from tiberium.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Excuse me?
Talking crap?
What the fuck?
...
Look. We get +41 Energy between now and 2063Q2. Right. We never build Bergen Phase 4, because, presumably, we've decided that why would we ever need more than two fusion dice per turn? There's just no point.
Meanwhile, we presumably keep doing normal activities. Which means that typical plans are going to be consuming -8 or -10 Energy per turn, one way or another. The exact sources of Energy demand will vary, but they don't stop existing.
And, of course, we're trying to actively build up a sizeable surplus so we can shut down old plants and start new ones- which requires us to construct additional fusion phases that only get us about +3 Energy on net.
Building up that surplus when your Energy budget is +4 on bad turns and +23 on good turns and when the good turns usually come two turns apart (but occasionally three) is going to be a very slow process. Ion power helps, but ion power has big opportunity costs.
...
The underlying point here is that being capped at two fusion dice per turn is limiting. It's not impossible that we could somehow, through some combination of scrimping and saving and avoiding technically unnecessary projects, get by at that level.
But why are we trying to?
What's so bad about just... building Bergen? We've got plenty of other projects that are both more time-consuming and more expensive on the docket. Why not just go ahead with it if it helps?
Short term and long term solutions.
In the short term, DAE plus two fusion dice gets us results sooner than Bergen opening up the option of 3-4 fusion dice. For the next one or two turns it looks great.
In the long term, we're going to have a very hard time meeting our long-term Energy needs (including building up a cumulative +144 surplus over and above our actual increasing needs for power) with so few dice.
Because if we're getting +10 or so average energy from fusion plants per turn, +4 from DAE, that's +14... minus 8-10 Energy per turn consumed. Which means an actual surplus increase of +4 to +6, which means we wind up taking 6-9 years to build enough extra fusion to replace all the first-generation plants, by which point a lot of them have already failed and shut down.
Even with DAE, Bergen still winds up being necessary. Well, Bergen or five alloy phases, and Bergen's the cheaper of those two options.
Bergen became necessary as a basic component of our industrial base, as soon as it became apparent that there was no way to build a long-lasting fusion plant without the superconductors Bergen makes.
That Yellow Zoner might revisit their feelings if their choice is an apartment on the ground that will almost certainly not be eaten by tiberium any time soon, versus space living in a little cell about two meters on a side with a communal bathroom and a crying baby on the other side of the very thin not-sound-proof partition.
Also, that Yellow Zoner will need some time to acquire the skills we need for a space colonist, and will probably be living in what Blue Zoners would call acceptable housing while doing so. Which means their standards of "good enough" may shift.
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