By the way, can then add this list to the help? By editing a post about marv zones for example.
All the same, it makes sense for them to navigate when we will build marv again .... if we don't forget.
Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
By the way, can then add this list to the help? By editing a post about marv zones for example.
All the same, it makes sense for them to navigate when we will build marv again .... if we don't forget.
- Location
- The Underdark
That will be IHG, thanks for reminding me to tweak that.
Basically having enough spare capacity that you can start doing rebuilds. Basically similar to how the initial Hewlett Gardener system worked, where you built a few, and then were able to start refitting old refineries to the new system.
When you have enough spare capacity again. Right now you have around 800 spare capacity, or are running at about 75 percent of theoretical capacity. It is not quite enough that your planners are ready to start looking seriously at decommissioning the oldest plants, unless and until they start suffering significant problems in the way that your first generation CC fusion plants are running into issues.
- Location
- Wall Gazing
I'll point out my own analysis mostly mirrors your's with the exception that I swap the third Hub for an inhibitor and a phase of RZ Harvesting. My reasoning being that it is a cheaper die cost to finish both of those projects (~2 dice) then it is to finish one Reclamator Hub (~4 dice). I do agree that no matter what we do we are going to be heavily investing in the RZ projects.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The trick is that we have a trio of Red Zone MARV hubs that all lead into each other very neatly with rollover and enable two inhibitors, making "build three Red Zone MARV hubs" a more attractive solution than it would be otherwise. Because as a natural consequence of completing the second hub, we'd almost certainly have rollover progress on the third, and it'd be a shame to let it go to waste, you know?
All right, the conclusion, then, is that we need to get cracking on our refinery expansions. Chicago Phase 5 becomes something we need sooner rather than later, because the Phase 5 refineries are the IHG facilities that will take the load off the older plants while we shut them down and replace them. Building additional IHG refineries, at least one phase, also becomes quasi-necessary.Ithillid said:
I just hope we don't wind up blowing through -12 or -15 Logistics building new facilities before we can begin stepping down the old ones. Though we can with difficulty afford it.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The main obstacle is Heavy Industry dice. I'd like to tackle one more phase of the alloy foundries this turn, but hopefully in 2062Q4 we'll be able to dial it back thanks to rollover from Phase 2 making Phase 3 of the project easier, and we won't have improved fusion research competing directly with the foundries for dice.
2062Q4 might be a good time to start Chicago Phase 5; realistically it'll take at least two turns of investment at one Heavy Industry die per turn plus X Infrastructure dice. Meanwhile we'll probably need to do at least one phase of IHG refineries, preferably in a turn we aren't also chucking seven dice at 40 R/die alloy foundries too, because the discretionary budget for that kind of big-ticket project is finite.
- Location
- USA
We should still be able to work on a phase of alloys a turn and work on Chicago. It only needs 1 heavy industry dice.
We just need to knock out some logistics stuff as a buffer before throwing all the infrastructure dice at Chicago.
We just need to knock out some logistics stuff as a buffer before throwing all the infrastructure dice at Chicago.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We'll be fine if we complete both listed phases of Suborbital Shuttles and the Personal Vehicle Plants. That's +17 in total. And we only need 2 IHG Plants + completing the remaining Processing Refits to meet the remaining Plan Goal amount, -6 Logistics total. Chicago is just ensuring we have the extra spare capacity to begin rebuilds.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
See also tib storage. This is basically what it's for, after all.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I'm not saying we can't handle it, I'm saying it's gonna be a big project.
Also, again, that Plan goal is not the problem. The problem is the rebuilds in general, because total we're going to need something like nine stages of IHG plants. That'd cost -27 Logistics, which isn't impossible for us but is quite a lot just in an objective sense, y'know?
Fortunately, we can reasonably hope to claw back most of that Logistics cost by shutting down existing plants and starting new stuff, but it's still... well, it's a lot, and I just hope everything works out.
Well, tiberium storage silos are iffy on that subject because we can't realistically build enough silos to accommodate a major structural deficit in production. But maybe, yeah, the boffins would feel better about shutting down old plants if it weren't such a vital necessity that all tiberium be routed to a processing plant as soon as possible for lack of a silo to put it in.
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People? I'm coming around to the idea of swapping out the die on processing plant refits to a die on silo construction in my Plan draft. Because it sounds like we'll need to retire the last of the old plants soon anyway, whether we refit them to first-generation H-G process or not, just to meet our promise to Litvinov. In that case, there's no real point in upgrading them, and building some silo capacity to help deal with local disruptions of tiberium processing might make it a lot easier for us to handle the necessary handover/rebuild of our tiberium refinery infrastructure.
I want people to have time to think about this, because I know a bunch of people have voted for my Attempting To Grow Cat Ears plan. If there's a lot of pushback, I'll hold off on doing this, but I think it's a good idea based on what we've now heard from Ithillid.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I'm not saying we can't, but it'd be nice not to have, like, three things ticking over and drawing off one Heavy Industry die at a time alongside of also needing like 6-7 dice on alloy foundries in that particular turn.
Which is an argument for trying to get Improved Fusion Development and Personal Electric Vehicle Plants out of the way too, as my own plans do. Though of course, it's me saying it.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If Ithilid confirms that having storage silos will help make it easy to get the refits/shutdowns going, then I'm for it.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I think he's mentioned it in the past. I'll go looking.
EDIT:
I can't find any reference to it with the search terms that have occurred to me in the thread. Common sense strongly suggests that it would help, though, so as of yet I am not dissuaded from making the switch.
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- Location
- USA
Kinda this.
I still think we should finish the old refits, just because it finishes it and gets more STUs.
And tiberium storage space isn't something we need at all right now unless I missed something. We have lots of unused capacity right now, right?
But if we find that building unneeded tiberium storage gives a clear benefit then sure. Why not.
The plants that would be rebuilt by the last phase of Hewlett-Gardener Refits aren't in use and won't give us any extra STUs because of that. We'd be paying to refit plants that we're legally obligated to bulldoze at some point in the next three years, it's just a waste of money and dice. And we don't have enough unused capacity that the spreadsheet jockeys are comfortable taking much offline for rebuilding with IHG technology, we're at like ~25% idle right now which might sound like a lot but you have to remember that if we ever go over capacity then we don't just lose money it also harms abatement, and nobody wants to fuck with that. A few hundred points of storage wouldn't go amiss to let us ride out temporary excesses, even if we never use them having them exist is insurance that makes the bureaucrats sleep a little easier at night Just In Case.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
- Location
- USA
We have plants that aren't in use?
How does that make any sense?
It makes much more sense that each plant isn't operating at full capacity with the supply of tiberium spread out to all the plants.
Otherwise it would be "This plants full. Start sending tiberium to the next plant. Call the workers and let them know they need to come into work now."
You might be right about everything else but I don't believe for a instant we have tiberium plants just sitting there doing nothing.
We preferentially send loads to Hewlett-Gardener plants to get STU production out of them, the fully idle plants are pre-HG plants that don't produce any STU's at all and are thus left in mothballs as an emergency reserve for surges in demand or somebody blowing up our more advanced hardware.
We have enough HG plants already that they can handle 100% of global Tiberium production, refitting the mothballed reserve might distribute the load a little more evenly across the entire pool rather than running HG plants at 85% and pre-HG at 0% but it won't get any more STUs, just change the locations they're produced. Which is kinda pointless when we're going to knock the plants down and rebuild them with even better tech in a year or two anyways.
To use the oil metaphor that Tiberium blatantly is, we have a handful of mothballed cracking units from the 1940's that we never got around to demolishing sitting around just in case an apocalypse happens. But they're not in regular use, because why would you when there's more than sufficient modern capacity for normal operations? And we're obligated to replace them with modern units anyways, so upgrading them to 1980's standards just to throw all that new machinery out 9 months later and replace it with 2020's standard is wasteful.
We have enough HG plants already that they can handle 100% of global Tiberium production, refitting the mothballed reserve might distribute the load a little more evenly across the entire pool rather than running HG plants at 85% and pre-HG at 0% but it won't get any more STUs, just change the locations they're produced. Which is kinda pointless when we're going to knock the plants down and rebuild them with even better tech in a year or two anyways.
To use the oil metaphor that Tiberium blatantly is, we have a handful of mothballed cracking units from the 1940's that we never got around to demolishing sitting around just in case an apocalypse happens. But they're not in regular use, because why would you when there's more than sufficient modern capacity for normal operations? And we're obligated to replace them with modern units anyways, so upgrading them to 1980's standards just to throw all that new machinery out 9 months later and replace it with 2020's standard is wasteful.
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- Location
- USA
I guess if we get confirmation that finishing the refits will accomplish nothing and are literally worthless... then fine? Forget them I guess.
I just can't imagine leaving plants closed instead of running them at reduced STU efficiency.
Everything we do runs off of turning tiberium into useful materials. How would it be worth shipping everything whatever extra distance all the time instead of just making it there and taking the 10% reduction in STUs?
I just can't imagine leaving plants closed instead of running them at reduced STU efficiency.
Everything we do runs off of turning tiberium into useful materials. How would it be worth shipping everything whatever extra distance all the time instead of just making it there and taking the 10% reduction in STUs?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Sure, the problem is that Ithilid hasn't put up any options for us to do that.
- Pronouns
- He/It/Argh!
While we shouldn't assume that we can transition processing in under a year, we aren't that close to running out of STU supply.
We can start prep for the processing refits next turn.
If we go all in on Infra and HI dice next turn, we have a >50% chance to complete Chicago 5. Without Free dice.
Which also gives us a juicy Capital Goods buffer.
We can start prep for the processing refits next turn.
If we go all in on Infra and HI dice next turn, we have a >50% chance to complete Chicago 5. Without Free dice.
Which also gives us a juicy Capital Goods buffer.
Shipping your steel beams an extra 50 km from the new HG plant one stop down the rail line instead of the obsolete pre-HG plant is not remotely convenient enough to make you turn down extra Literal Bullshit Space Magic materials with wondrous properties previously unknown to humanity that are massively, excessively in demand.
Yes he has, just like when we upgraded pre-war technology to HG technology, we had to build a fresh set or two of HG plants before we had enough excess capacity that the Tiberium safety apparatchiks would allow us to offline old plants and refit them to HG. Now to do Improved HG we need to first build a round or two of new plants to get the excess capacity, then once we have enough spare capacity we can offline and rebuild the old machinery piece by piece.
I am for going for it.
Building a silo seems like a far more efficient way to increase our capacity than renovating a plant only to demolish it an year later.