- Location
- USA
Nothing at all disagreeable here.
And the approval vote.
[X] Plan Attempting To Grow Cat Ears
[X] Plan Attempting To Grow Cat Ears And Build Hospitals
Attempting to Fulfill the Plan: GDI Edition
And the approval vote.
[X] Plan Attempting To Grow Cat Ears
[X] Plan Attempting To Grow Cat Ears And Build Hospitals
Honestly, Simon, I am not interested in the variant because the base version has AEVA whereas the variant does.
- Location
- Most likely California
[X] Plan Attempting To Grow Cat Ears And Build Hospitals
I'm fine with most of the leading plan, but I want to finally finish up the Hospital Expansions and Optical Lab.
I'm fine with most of the leading plan, but I want to finally finish up the Hospital Expansions and Optical Lab.
- Location
- MSC
Speaking about Red Zone - Border Offensives and Deep Glaciers (assuming there's 2 of them) will bring 10 RZ Mitigation.
Containment Lines will give another 9.
But the overall goal is 30. So where do we get another 11?
Containment Lines will probably have another 1-2 phases, maybe new phases of Border Offensives ?
Or should we consider return to MARVs, RZ harvesting and traditional Glaciers?
Containment Lines will give another 9.
But the overall goal is 30. So where do we get another 11?
Containment Lines will probably have another 1-2 phases, maybe new phases of Border Offensives ?
Or should we consider return to MARVs, RZ harvesting and traditional Glaciers?
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I don't think many of these projects can be completed on time. Check the deployment times given. From the sound of it, we don't get workable stealth disruptors to the troops for six quarters after we start. AECCM technology is likely to be similar. SADN won't protect many targets and we won't be expanding the coverage to Karachi Planned City until the place is already well established and heavily defended.
Naval laser refits and anti-hallucinogens can be implemented more quickly, making them more useful in the short term. LOSS will start giving us information as soon as it's launched, so again, useful.
The Orca wingman drones fall somewhere in between those two extremes. We can hopefully at least produce enough that the forces which need them most (carrier aviation, where number of aircraft is sharply limited) can hopefully have them, so they will begin to have an impact.
Basically, this kind of analysis cannot be carried out without pairing it with the "X turns to begin, Y turns to complete" information.
Fair. Sorry to bother you. Thanks for being willing to say something about it.
I suspect we won't get more border offensives, because the number of border offensives we can perform may be limited by the number of sites where our territory touches a Red Zone directly.
So either Harvesting/Glaciers (which may cause ZOCOM strain problems) or Red Zone MARVs plus inhibitors.
Building the triad of MARV hubs at Port Said/Benghazi/Istanbul (we can get each to roll over into the next) and building the RZ-1 and RZ-3 Red Zone inhibitors those will make available, put together, will give us +3+3+3+2+2 Red Zone abatement and put us over the line for our target, when combined with the remaining border offensives (and associated glacier mining) and the Lines.
- Location
- MSC
MARVs do require Mil Dice, which is in fairly high demand as is, not very optimistic about their deployment.
- Location
- ?????????
[X] Plan Space, Alloys and Dairy
[X] Plan Reactors Online
[X] Plan: Industrial Tech for a Picnic in Karachi
[X] Plan: Yo Dawg I Heard You Like Space and Plants and Catgirls
[X] Plan Reactors Online
[X] Plan: Industrial Tech for a Picnic in Karachi
[X] Plan: Yo Dawg I Heard You Like Space and Plants and Catgirls
you didn't bother me Simon I just hope we can do all the AEVA options over the next turns
- Pronouns
- He/Him
28 left, not 30. Every point matters.
Now from what are currently listed:
- 2 Red Zone Border Offensives = 6 RZ Abt.
- 3 Containment Lines = 9 RZ Abt.
- 2 Red Zone Tiberium Harvestings = 2 RZ Abt.
- 2 Tiberium Glaciers = 2 RZ Abt.
- 2 Deep Red Zone Glaciers = 4 RZ Abt.
Total: 23 RZ Abt, leaving 5 left.
I agree about the Border Zone Offensives, particularly since our goal is to finish them before 2064 and otherwise the delay would make achieving that infeasible. I suspect completed Red Zone Tiberium stages will unlock more Glacier (regular and DRZ) stages in turn.
Given the Mil dice requirements, the most I would spring for is 2 RZ MARV Hubs (focusing on one Zone), and an Inhibitor to with them. That would give 8 Abt. and compensate for doing less Red Zone Tib Harvesting.
Edit: Actually, stepping back and looking at the math. Military dice will be +31, and Tib dice +39. So 2 Mil and 2 Tib dice will be 4d100+140. Anydice gives 64.65% chance to complete in one roll, for just 80R. And we get Energy bonuses and 25 RpT.
So I actually will go ahead and support Simon's suggestion on the MARV+Inhibitors as a second part of our Red Zone Abatement plan.
Edit 2: Actually, do we still have to purchase the Fleets after we set up the hubs? Because the Super MARVs will also add hefty money and mitigation to the table as well.
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Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
We don't need more than 2 a turn since we can use Tiberium Dice for the rest.
As far as I am aware the price of a Super MARV Fleet is now included into the base Hubs.
No, the fleets are now folded into the Hubs. Because we've only ever done SMARVs.
CrabMonarchy
Allegedly Dutch
- Location
- the Netherlands, apparently
Regrettably, I suspect that we won't ever get a project to refit existing refineries to IHG, based on the following discord post:
It doesn't change much overall since we promised to finish the original HG refits to Litvinov, so we'd have to do them anyways*, but new capacity will have to be built from scratch.
*IHG does not affect the promise, as per this discord post:
Edit: as doruma1920 pointed out, the promise mandates "Improved Hewlett Gardener Refits", so I guess there will be a refit project, but probably more progress-intensive than the current refining refits.
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- Location
- Wall Gazing
For the thread from a mathematical perspective we are getting ~59 progress spread over all our dice as opposed to getting an average roll of 50 on a particular project plus 10 R. So the math is positive that we'd save a little by rushing it, but it is a small enough benefit that I'm ambivalent about it.
I'd add Iceland (BZ 15) and South America (BZ 8) to that list. Plus looking at the Red/Yellow Zones of the East Indies.
So full list: BZ 4 (Oman), BZ 5 (Portugal), BZ 6 (Japan), BZ 8 (Patagonia), BZ 11 (West US), BZ 15 (Iceland), BZ 16 (Kamchatka), YZ 4(Philippines), YZ 5 (Oceania), YZ 11 (Columbia), YZ 12 (South America), YZ 17 (Arabia), RZ 1 (Mediterranean), RZ 2 (Africa), RZ 3 (Caspian Sea), RZ 5 (Indonesia).
With the priority being the ones on the big fault lines: BZ 6 (Japan), BZ 8 (Patagonia), BZ 11 (West US), BZ 15 (Iceland), BZ 16 (Kamchatka), YZ 4(Philippines), YZ 5 (Oceania), YZ 11 (Columbia), YZ 12 (South America), RZ 5 (Indonesia).
I compiled a list earlier based on the active fault lines. Here it is.
- Location
- MSC
There is speculation and hope that we might get an option to tear down old refineries and build IHG ones in their place.
In other words, it'll be pretty much the same IHG project we have now, but without Logistics and Energy overheads (using already existing infrastructure).
In other words, it'll be pretty much the same IHG project we have now, but without Logistics and Energy overheads (using already existing infrastructure).
- Location
- Wall Gazing
Regrettably, I suspect that we won't ever get a project to refit existing refineries to IHG, based on the following discord post:
It doesn't change much overall since we promised to finish the original HG refits to Litvinov, so we'd have to do them anyways*, but new capacity will have to be built from scratch.
*IHG does not affect the promise, as per this discord post:
I think I'm misinterpreting something as in the recent turn post it stated:
That is Improved Hewlett Gardener Refits not Hewlett Gardner Refits which is specified in the same turn post as Processing Refits of the pre Hewlett Gardener Process.
This implies it is only refitting to HG standard, which is not what we promised. Even if this final wave of refits gets the IHG treatment, we still need to refit to IHG for the rest of our Processing.
- Location
- MSC
As stated on Discord, upgrade of existing processing isn't feasible.
To keep promise to Litvinov we'll probably have to replace all our processing with IHG, which means building them from scratch or tearing down old ones and replacing them.
To keep promise to Litvinov we'll probably have to replace all our processing with IHG, which means building them from scratch or tearing down old ones and replacing them.
CrabMonarchy
Allegedly Dutch
- Location
- the Netherlands, apparently
Ah, good point. In that case, I suppose there will be a refit project but probably like Oleg suggested, with the same progress as building new plants but no indicator requirements.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Let's just wait and see what comes up after we complete the basic Refits.
That does simplify things.
So... mathing out more! Note that these don't include the Kudzu bonuses.
-[] Red Zone Border Offensives (Stage 4+5) 93/480 -- 5 dice, 125R, +4 Energy, +30-70 RpT, 6 Abt, 86%
-[] Red Zone Containment Lines (Stage 6+7+8) 54/645 -- 7 dice, 175R,+3 Energy, +30-60 RpT, 9 Abt, 71%
-[] Deep Red Zone Tiberium Glacier Mining (Stage 4+5) 0/480 -- 6 dice, 180R, +4 Energy, -6 Logistics, +120-180 RpT, 4 Abt, 82%
This should give a reasonable balance between completion chances and dice/resources, and bring us up to 19 Abt.
Then the Hubs!
-[] Reclamator Hub x3 0/960 -- 6 Mil + 6 Tib dice, 80R, +3 Energy, +75 RpT, 9 Abt, ~71%
That's 28 on the dot, for an average die cost between 20-25R. We don't even need Red Zone Inhibitors, which is important given our concerns about Energy right now. And this setup will fit our Tib dice budget for the Q2-Q4 2063 period with 1 free die added in each quarter. Meaning we'll be free to invest in Karachi for 2064-2065.
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[x] Plan Foxgirls, Armor, and Alloys
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
@Ithillid
May I ask a few questions regarding the improved Hewlett-Gardener process?
1) Chicago Planned City Phase 5 contains tiberium processing capacity. Now that the IHG process is developed, would that entirely new capacity qualify as IHG capacity for purposes of our promise to Litvinov?
2) What would the trigger conditions look like for a relatively... uh, indicator-neutral version of IHG Tiberium Processing Plants? That is, an action that reflects us doing, if not a refit, then just literally building the new plants and tearing down the old ones, so that on net there is little extra cost in Energy and Logistics?
3) Alternatively, what do we have to do to get a "retire obsolete tiberium refineries" action so that they are no longer consuming Energy and Logistics in the background even while we are no longer using them, having replaced them with IHG plants? It seems only common sense that we would do so.
As a reference, if we're going to need to replace all existing tiberium refinery capacity with new IHG plants from scratch...
Well, our current Plan commitment is to:
1) Add 920 points of refining capacity, and
2) Replace all existing capacity with an upgraded version.
I am pretty sure we have to do both- that is, we cannot use the argument that surplus capacity doesn't count towards our promise to refit, so we're going to have to refit all 3350 points we have, not just the 2500 or so that we are currently as of this writing using.
...
Now, we can get (1) with Chicago Phase 5 and a single phase of IHG Tiberium Processing Plants. Chicago was already part of the stuff we were planning to build anyway and costs no Tiberium dice; the phase of new plants will be added to the list below.
To get (2), if we must shut down and rebuild all existing tiberium refineries with IHG facilities, we will need... Well, we currently have 3350 points of refining capacity. Since each IHG phase provides 450 points of refining capacity, we would need eight stages, plus a ninth one from (1).
Nine stages of refineries would cost at least 190 Progress per stage, less if alloy foundries are more fully developed. The most optimistic case is 150 Progress per stage, but I don't think we want to count on waiting that long, so I'm going to choose an intermediate case of imagining that the refineries cost on average 160 Progress per stage to offset that we may start building some of those new refineries before we're done with the alloy foundries.
So we're looking at 1440 Progress worth of Tiberium project, with rollover. At the moment, we average 88.5 Progress per Tiberium die, so such a project would cost about 16.5 Tiberium dice at 35 R/die. With Wadmalaw Kudzu Phase 3 and Tiberium AEVAs in place, we'd have an additional +4 and it'd be more like 15.5 Tiberium dice.
This is certainly manageable, but it's a big project. The -Energy and especially -Logistics costs would be staggering, but hopefully, hopefully, we can claw back most of the Energy and Logistics that are being fed into the existing refinery infrastructure on an ongoing basis, making the project relatively lower-cost in that respect.
...
As per @doruma1920 's analyses...
Well, his last analysis already included one stage of IHG plants and anticipated spending six dice on the refits, and projected that we'd need 84 of our current 98 Tiberium dice on quasi-mandatory projects to hit our indicator targets. If my analysis is correct, then we're going to need much more dice for the refits, roughly 9-10 more than Doruma thought. We can probably still pull this off without Free dice, but conclusions:
A) The refinery reconstruction is gonna be a big project, and an expensive one that eats into the discretionary budget. Not unmanageable, but big.
B) We really need a way to retire old refineries for +Energy and +Logistics, or to offset the Energy/Logistics cost of new ones.
C) If we are assured such an option exists, we may want to cancel the refits I'm now contemplating in my Attempting To Grow Cat Ears and Attempting To Grow Cat Ears And Build Hospitals plans; just retiring the old plants becomes more useful.
D) Just about anything we do in Tiberium other than work on Plan targets is going to have to be offset with Free dice, OR
E) We're really, really gonna need to finish the alloy refineries, and do the Tiberium AEVAs. Tiberium AEVAs frankly made sense anyway, because it's an area where nearly all projects have rollover, so small cumulative dice bonuses really add up well.
Military dice are likely to be less tight in, say, 2064, when we're no longer thinking "can we cram this helpful thing in before Karachi." The focus then becomes "hit the Plan targets." Two Military dice, or four, to hit the Plan targets isn't that much of a burden, a2d we'd only need two Military dice per turn.
I could be wrong, but my gut says we'd be able to get it done.
May I ask a few questions regarding the improved Hewlett-Gardener process?
1) Chicago Planned City Phase 5 contains tiberium processing capacity. Now that the IHG process is developed, would that entirely new capacity qualify as IHG capacity for purposes of our promise to Litvinov?
2) What would the trigger conditions look like for a relatively... uh, indicator-neutral version of IHG Tiberium Processing Plants? That is, an action that reflects us doing, if not a refit, then just literally building the new plants and tearing down the old ones, so that on net there is little extra cost in Energy and Logistics?
3) Alternatively, what do we have to do to get a "retire obsolete tiberium refineries" action so that they are no longer consuming Energy and Logistics in the background even while we are no longer using them, having replaced them with IHG plants? It seems only common sense that we would do so.
As a reference, if we're going to need to replace all existing tiberium refinery capacity with new IHG plants from scratch...
Well, our current Plan commitment is to:
1) Add 920 points of refining capacity, and
2) Replace all existing capacity with an upgraded version.
I am pretty sure we have to do both- that is, we cannot use the argument that surplus capacity doesn't count towards our promise to refit, so we're going to have to refit all 3350 points we have, not just the 2500 or so that we are currently as of this writing using.
...
Now, we can get (1) with Chicago Phase 5 and a single phase of IHG Tiberium Processing Plants. Chicago was already part of the stuff we were planning to build anyway and costs no Tiberium dice; the phase of new plants will be added to the list below.
To get (2), if we must shut down and rebuild all existing tiberium refineries with IHG facilities, we will need... Well, we currently have 3350 points of refining capacity. Since each IHG phase provides 450 points of refining capacity, we would need eight stages, plus a ninth one from (1).
Nine stages of refineries would cost at least 190 Progress per stage, less if alloy foundries are more fully developed. The most optimistic case is 150 Progress per stage, but I don't think we want to count on waiting that long, so I'm going to choose an intermediate case of imagining that the refineries cost on average 160 Progress per stage to offset that we may start building some of those new refineries before we're done with the alloy foundries.
So we're looking at 1440 Progress worth of Tiberium project, with rollover. At the moment, we average 88.5 Progress per Tiberium die, so such a project would cost about 16.5 Tiberium dice at 35 R/die. With Wadmalaw Kudzu Phase 3 and Tiberium AEVAs in place, we'd have an additional +4 and it'd be more like 15.5 Tiberium dice.
This is certainly manageable, but it's a big project. The -Energy and especially -Logistics costs would be staggering, but hopefully, hopefully, we can claw back most of the Energy and Logistics that are being fed into the existing refinery infrastructure on an ongoing basis, making the project relatively lower-cost in that respect.
...
As per @doruma1920 's analyses...
Well, his last analysis already included one stage of IHG plants and anticipated spending six dice on the refits, and projected that we'd need 84 of our current 98 Tiberium dice on quasi-mandatory projects to hit our indicator targets. If my analysis is correct, then we're going to need much more dice for the refits, roughly 9-10 more than Doruma thought. We can probably still pull this off without Free dice, but conclusions:
A) The refinery reconstruction is gonna be a big project, and an expensive one that eats into the discretionary budget. Not unmanageable, but big.
B) We really need a way to retire old refineries for +Energy and +Logistics, or to offset the Energy/Logistics cost of new ones.
C) If we are assured such an option exists, we may want to cancel the refits I'm now contemplating in my Attempting To Grow Cat Ears and Attempting To Grow Cat Ears And Build Hospitals plans; just retiring the old plants becomes more useful.
D) Just about anything we do in Tiberium other than work on Plan targets is going to have to be offset with Free dice, OR
E) We're really, really gonna need to finish the alloy refineries, and do the Tiberium AEVAs. Tiberium AEVAs frankly made sense anyway, because it's an area where nearly all projects have rollover, so small cumulative dice bonuses really add up well.
Yesbut.
Military dice are likely to be less tight in, say, 2064, when we're no longer thinking "can we cram this helpful thing in before Karachi." The focus then becomes "hit the Plan targets." Two Military dice, or four, to hit the Plan targets isn't that much of a burden, a2d we'd only need two Military dice per turn.
I could be wrong, but my gut says we'd be able to get it done.
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